Talk:Canada–United States border

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Move?[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. It's been pointed out that this is to align the title with the manual of style, which indeed does state there shouldn't be a space around the dash. Issues about this really should be brought up at the MOS talk page, not here. Steven Zhang The clock is ticking.... 01:42, 8 November 2011 (UTC)


Canada – United States borderCanada–United States border

  • Remove space around dash per MOS. The Evil IP address (talk) 09:07, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose; removing the spaces makes the title unclear: does the hyphen join "Canada" and "United" or "Canada" and "United States"? Powers T 17:52, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
    • I don't think anyone will assume there's a Canada-United bordering with States. Just move it already, this is a trivial spelling detail, not a major policy question. --vuo (talk) 00:12, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support it is in conformity with the MOS to remove the spaces around the endash. No ambiguity because a) it's an endash, b)'Canada-United' obviously makes no sense. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 01:34, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
    • I admit this specific usage is not a very good example, but the general principle applies. Powers T 02:05, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Put me (and most other users who aren't obsessed with dashes) down for an extra large helping of not giving a shit. The point is if users can find the content they are looking for. Whether we use one little line or another or put spaces around it is not important. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:09, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Oppose. To many people a dash is a hyphen is a minus sign. OK, 'Canada-United' makes no sense, therefore etc, but readers should not have to deduce "this therefore that" to find what text means. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 06:32, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Comment, wow, I didn't even think there could be a reason not to move this page. It's quite common to use en dash compounds of countries here, so this one shouldn't be an exception. And per the recent MOS change, there should be no spaces between the endash. --The Evil IP address (talk) 16:28, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support per MOS. If you don't like it, take up the issue there. —danhash (talk) 16:41, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support - the reason why we have a Manual of Style is to avoid having these little technical discussions over and over. 109.154.71.251 (talk) 09:13, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
  • Support per MOS:DASH. This is why we had this huge discussion in the middle of the year and the resulting consensus that's relevant to this discussion was that we should not space en dashes (personally I was neutral on the issue). If you want to change this, bring it up at WT:MOS, don't argue about it at every single RM. Jenks24 (talk) 00:07, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Seeing as International Boundary redirects to this article, and its the common name...[edit]

not to mention the official name... does it not make sense to move this to International Boundary, or is there a desire to keep the formatting in line with other political borders? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 00:32, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Unless there are other borders with official names, I think in this case the consistency criterion takes precedence over officialness. Powers T 02:36, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
So does WP:COMMONNAME. Beeblebrox (talk) 05:14, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

One border[edit]

What about Hans Island the Canadian-Danish border? --Kuzwa (talk) 04:06, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

If by that you mean why does the article claim Canada shares it's border with only one country, if you read carefully you will see it actually says it shares a land border with only one country. Interesting article though, I'd never heard of that. Beeblebrox (talk) 05:19, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
But it does technically share a land border with Danmark there, although it's disputed. The Canadian position is that the border runs straight through the Island bro — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.228.182.191 (talk) 00:50, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Notable Crossings[edit]

I noticed that the list of "Notable Crossings" was seemingly a list of crossings in Ontario. I did add the Peace Arch, which as the biggest crossing by traffic west of Ambassedor Bridge, is probably more notable, then the crossing in Sault Ste. Marie. I think that this list should probably be gutted maybe to two the five or six biggest ones. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.210.213 (talk) 21:35, 23 June 2012 (UTC)

The list should include crossings that have their own articles -- primarily bridges. That's how we define "notable". Powers T 15:24, 27 June 2012 (UTC)

Another possible 49th parallel exclave near Antler, ND[edit]

While looking at the border on Google maps near the known exclave in ND, I came across this smaller candidate:

http://goo.gl/maps/oPPz1

Compare maps and satellite view, would be about 100ft x 40ft in size. Would need to be investigated on the ground to verify. Miasmic (talk) 05:55, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

There are several others if you are willing to use rivers and creeks, not just lakes. The best ones I have found are: 1) Just south of Midway, BC. A farm field in the US, but accessible only from Canada (or by wading across the creek). 2) The junction of the North Fork of the Flathead and Sage Creek, in Montana. The point is in the US but only accessible by land from Canada. 3) Along the Milk River in northern Montana. There are quite a few others if you want to use even smaller creeks. I did not look the whole way along the border; there are probably more.Dunncon13 (talk) 18:19, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Things across the border[edit]

So what happens if someone lives or works in one of the buildings sited across the border? Do they have to report to customs every time they walk or move one of their possentions from one end of their house to the other? Is there some kind of special status for such people and their premisis? Plugwash (talk) 16:47, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Is it legal to cross the border outside border control, if you have a correct document? It not written in the article, except for the photo of the sign "WARNING". --BIL (talk) 09:29, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

it is not legal to cross the border without reporting in. The rules are so stringent that it is very rare for a person to work on the other side. Rjensen (talk) 12:56, 21 May 2013 (UTC)

Is there some kind of special status for Cross-border buildings ? Are people allowed to walk across the border ? Are they allowed to walk to a certain distance from the border? --BIL (talk) 11:32, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

You can (legally) walk across the border only at legal Customs ports of entry. NorthBySouthBaranof (talk) 18:01, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

History, further info[edit]

Dawson report (1872-1876)[edit]

As far as I can tell, this article makes no mention of this 1872-1876 boundary commission. This seems to be a valid part of the history section. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 23:06, 11 September 2013 (UTC)
The 1872 resolution of the Pig War dispute is mentioned. As for the Northwest boundary, there was no Boundary Commission, there was only a proposal for one in 1872 which was rejected by the United States as unnecessary as the the land was too remote and of marginal value. It wasn't until the Klondike Gold Rush in 1898 that the US took any interest in surveying the Canada - Alaska boundary. This is covered in the article on the Alaska boundary dispute.
  • This Wikipedia article is entitled Canada-United States border. The North American Boundary Commission 1872-1876 was an international commission covering from Lake of the Woods to the Rocky Mountains. An earlier commission covering the Pacific Coast area of Surrey took place between 1857-1859. (See some of the sources given below.) This is a different area than the Alaska frontier. Archibald Campbell represented the United States in both of these commissions. Mountains named in honor of the participants provides further testament to the work of these commissions. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 06:43, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Mount Rowe citation (1872-1876)[edit]

  • Mount Rowe
http://www.peakfinder.com/peakfinder.asp?PeakName=Mount+Rowe
Summary of info:
  1. Lieut. Rowe was the Surveying Officer for the International Boundary Commission (1872-1876) which deliniated the international border from Lake of the Woods to the Continental Divide.
  2. Differences of opinion between Canada and the United States concerning the placement of the international boundary through the islands in the Strait of Georgia between the mainland and Vancouver Island had been settled cordially by an international boundary survey commission that existed from 1858 to 1862.
  3. This success led to the formation of a similar commission in 1870 that was given the task of marking the boundary from Lake of the Woods, Manitoba to the Continental Divide.
  4. Archibald Campbell, who had been the American chief commissioner for the 1858-1862 survey, was chosen to be the United States Commissioner of the survey.
  5. Prime Minister John A. Macdonald recommended a Scottish-born officer of the Royal Artillery, Capt. Donald Cameron to be the Campbell's Canadian counterpart.
  6. Note, This source states that the United States representative in the 1872-1876 Commission was Archibald Campbell. We need to find more info on him.
  7. The two commissioners, Campbell and Cameron, first met in 1872 and the following year saw the beginning of the long trek westward.
  8. The contrast in policy towards the continent's native population was evident as the American surveyors were supported by 230 armed men, two companies of cavalry and a company of infantry, as a precaution against possible Indian hostility.
  9. The British did not consider an armed escort necessary. In Cameron's opinion, the British flag was all the protection they required.
  10. Through 1874 and 1875 the survey continued, extending the cairn marked boundary line across the three prairie steppes to the mountains and finally to the Continental Divide.
  11. By the time the final meeting of the Commissioners Campbell and Cameron was held in London in 1876, 388 survey monuments such as iron pillars, stone cairns, earth mounds, timber marks, and mounds of mixed earth and stone had been established along the 49th Parallel of latitude.
  12. The now visible evidence of an international border was quickly put to use by the North West Mounted Police.
  13. The bootlegging of liquor by Americans to the Canadian Indians could now be controlled.
  14. One of the first to make effective use of the newly marked border was Sitting Bull and his Sioux warriors who fled to safety in Canada after the massacre at Little Big Horn in Montana.
  15. The Americans honoured their commissioner, naming a peak just south of the border on the western side of Waterton Lake Mount Campbell.
  • This is a lot of information. If this is factual, the 1872-1876 border commission was international in makeup. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 04:54, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

Hasting Papers on Archibald Campbell (1857-59)[edit]

  • Camp Semiahmoo 1857-59, Hasting Papers
Source: Papers of W.W. Hastings
http://www.surreyhistory.ca/campsemi.html

Campbell and Hawkins (1857-1862)[edit]

  • Campbell versus Hawkins: The Sometimes Stormy Relationship between the American & British Commissioners to the 1857-1862 Northwest Boundary Survey
http://www.lsawhistorical.org/documents/articles_CampbellvrsHawkinPOB.pdf

Archibald Campbell's Report of the 1872-1876 Commission[edit]

The Title page of Archibald Campbell's International Border Commission Report, 1872-1876

Source:

Enough historical information for separate article[edit]

It seems as though there is enough historical information for a separate article to be developed eventually. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 06:47, 13 September 2013 (UTC)

"practical exclaves"[edit]

I question the value of listing every water-bounded speck of rock on the border. Are they any more exclaved than Vancouver Island, or Martha's Vineyard? The list also smells of OR. —Tamfang (talk) 04:29, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

In regard to your question only (without commenting on your statements), if an island has an international border between two countries on it, then there are two pene-exclaves. If one stipulates that the concept of "pene-exclave" lacks credence, then your question has added merit, in my opinion.
Jeff in CA 14:53, 4 November 2013 (UTC)
These are not exclaves or pene-exclaves: the territory is continuous even if the land is not. They are not practical exclaves, in my infallible opinion, because it's not necessarily any more practical to reach one half of the sandbar by going through the other half. —Tamfang (talk) 19:59, 4 November 2013 (UTC)