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RfC: Gardel photographs in blog
Should the blog Gardel En Fotos be used in the Carlos Gardel article? It has been inserted to support the statement that Gardel's birth is still controversial. Binksternet (talk) 21:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
- That blog was written in 2008, it's outdated with the recent discovery of his French birth certificate Cambalachero (talk) 15:32, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Birthplace: original research or book sources?
User:Zorzaluruguay has been adding text and images taken from a blog. The three images are shown here on the right. The purpose is to increase the focus on the notional Uruguayan birth of Gardel rather than the more reliably sourced French birth. I have repeatedly removed these changes per WP:RS and WP:NOR. Just today I removed all the blogs, no matter what they said, pro or con.
So what sources do we have? It turns out there have been some good books and scholarly articles written. The first source that is currently used in the article is from UNESCO's Courier, a peer-reviewed scholarly journal. Luis Bocaz says that the evidence is stronger for Toulouse, France, as Gardel's birthplace.
- Bocaz, Luis (March 1986). "Tango Time", UNESCO Courier, p. 11.
- Carlos Gardel: a la luz de la historia, by Nelson Bayardo and José Pedro Rilla. Biografías Aguilar, 2000. ISBN 9974653878. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
- Carlos Gardel: el resplandor y la sombra, by Carlos Zinelli. Corregidor, 1987. (In Spanish.) This book discusses Toulouse and Tacuarembó.
- Vida y milagros de Carlos Gardel, by Nelson Bayardo. Ediciones La República, 1988. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
- The Life, Music, and Times of Carlos Gardel, by Simon Collier. University of Pittsburgh Press, 1986. ISBN 0822984989. This book describes the Toulouse birth and subsequent actions of Gardel's mother.
- more to come... Binksternet (talk) 00:57, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
- Carlos Gardel: el silencio de Tacuarembó, by María Selva Ortiz Bosc. Ediciones de la Plaza, 1995. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
- Tacuarembó esquina Carlos Gardel, by Iris Sclavo, also known as Iris Sclavo Armán. Editorial Fin de Siglo, 1993. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
- The Film Industry in Argentina: An Illustrated Cultural History, by Jorge Finkielman. McFarland, 2004. ISBN 0786416289. Pages 116–117 assert the Toulouse birth. No mention of Tacuarembó.
- El tango: & la historia de Carlos Gardel, by Jorge Aravena Llanca. Lom Ediciones, 2003. ISBN 956282554X. (In Spanish.) This book says Toulouse is the birthplace, and tries to explain why and how the Tacuarembó story came to the fore.
- La sonrisa de Gardel: Biografía, mito y ficción, by Jorge Ruffinelli. Ediciones Trilce, 2004. ISBN 9974323568. (In Spanish.) This book says Toulouse is the birthplace, and tries to explain why and how the Tacuarembó story came to the fore.
- France and the Americas: Culture, Politics, and History, by Bill Marshall. ABC-CLIO, 2005. ISBN 1851094113. This encyclopedia says "Gardel was in fact born in Toulouse"; it does not mention Tacuarembó.
- Gardel--: Es un soplo la vida: biografía íntima de Carlos Gardel, by Marily Contreras. Libros del Zorzal, 2005. ISBN 9871081626. (In Spanish.) This book describes in great detail the circumstances of the Toulouse birth. In 1914, men of French citizenship were being drafted for war against Germany. The book tells how Buenos Aires province police chief Cristino Benavidez solved the problem of Gardel's French citizenship by creating a false document setting his birth as 1887, a false year, and in Tacuarembó, Uruguay, a remote location unlikely to be checked against local records. (Simon Collier acknowledges this version but says it cannot be checked against hard facts. Collier gives these hard facts: Gardel first applied for Uruguayan citizenship in October 1920 when he was nearly 30 years old. In November 1920 he was issued a new Argentine ID card as a Uruguayan ex-patriot. On 7 March 1923 he applied for citizenship in Argentina. On 1 May 1923 he took the oath of Argentine citizenship.)
- Necromanía, by Claudio Negrete. SUDAMERICANA, 2011. ISBN 9500737698. (In Spanish.) This book says Toulouse is the birthplace, and explains the Tacuarembó story in light of Gardel avoiding French military service.
- Conociendo a Gardel, by Elsa Felder. Imaginador, 2006. ISBN 9507685588. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
- Gardel, tango que me hiciste bien, by Miguel Arteche. Andres Bello, 1985. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
- Gardel: páginas abiertas, by Eduardo Payssé González. Ed. de la Plaza, 2004. (In Spanish.) This book says Gardel avoided post-WWI retribution by France against French men who did not fight in the war, by claiming Uruguayan birth.
- Repatriación de Gardel, by Ricardo A. Ostuni. Ediciones Corregidor, 1998. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
- Carlos Gardel : biografía autorizada, by Eliseo Alvarez. De la Urraca, 1995. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy; it seems sympathetic to Tacuarembó but points out that Gardel testified in writing in 1931: "I am French, born in Toulouse, 11 December 1890, son of Berthe Gardés."
- Historia artística de Carlos Gardel: estudio cronológico, by Miguel Angel Morena. Ediciones Corregidor, 1985. (In Spanish.) This book says the Toulouse birth is "perfectly established" and that the Tacuarembó documentation was created as a false trail.
- Por siempre, Carlos Gardel, by Augusto Fernández. Ediciones Latinprens Latinoamericanas, 1973. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
- Gardel: la verdad oculta, by Gerardo Bra. Corregidor, 1995. (In Spanish.) This book covers the Toulouse/Tacuarembó controversy.
Various books quote Gardel speaking about his nationality, and he is all over the map. He says one thing to one audience and another thing to another audience. He is cagey: he says his nationality is "the Tango", or that he is Rioplatense (from the great Plate River delta region including Buenos Aires and Montevideo.) He says he was born in Toulouse, he says he was born in Tacuarembó, he says he is Argentine. Certainly, we are able to note these quotes but we cannot use any of them for leverage to decide the matter of birthplace. Binksternet (talk) 05:14, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Gardel never said he was born in France. He was never quoted by any newspaper as saying so. He was quoted many times stating that he was born in Tacuarembo. Why? I don't know and don't care. If there's any subtatiated evidence that he was born Charles Gardes in Toulousse, and by the way not the one born in South America in the mid 1870's nor the one who died at 28 during WWI, then let some one provide it.
I do not ask for one theory to be placed over the other, just to allow them growing space. I would honestly like to see intelligent discussion on this point, unfortunately all documentation put through that he was born in Uruguay is dismissed has forged by Mr. Gardel and left at that, Bocaz's own argument is a one liner stating that he was born in France based on documentation (unvalidated evidence). I would like to know what these assertions are based on, the only documentation put through has been hearsay and some books that reference each other. If they are satisfied with work of that quality then thats fine by me and I personally would not want to contest it.
I know wikipedia is not the place were this issue is going to be resolved, so what I ask for is this, let the people who believe he was indeed born in France to say so, and let the people who believe otherwise to do so. Provided all can state the documentation, but please keep in mind that all the documentation thats showned as valid all back, subjectively, one side of the story.
- Wikipedia follows its own WP:Neutral point of view policy, a core content guide that must be followed. The NPOV policy "means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources." The first thing to notice in that policy is "proportionately", which tells us to give the proper proportion to conflicting theories. The Uruguay theory exists, but it is described and dismissed by so many of the Gardel biographers. The main body of Gardel scholars accepts that he was born in Toulouse, France. The second thing to notice is the part about "published by reliable sources". We will give a detailed account of the Uruguay theory by referring to reliable sources published about the Uruguay theory. We will not argue the case here, nor will we lay out all the evidence in an artificially neutral manner. The two theories are not equal, so allowing them equal coverage would be wrong. Binksternet (talk) 14:25, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Binksternet, i do not agree that providing documented proof of Mr. Gardel's POB creates an artificial neutral environment. The not acceptance of these documents clearly shows an undisguised bias towards those who shout the loudest. When my first edits were questioned, they were removed and I was asked to include citations following wikipedia's guidelines. I've include citations that not only strictly followed these guidelines but also allowed the best possible definition of source and context. The piece of work, the creator and the publisher all are governments (Argentina and France). The context of the citations can't be questioned as they are simple governmental documents that testify to the identity of an individual. Additionally, these documents are the foundation of Mr. Gardel's argentine naturalization. If these documents are contested, then proof should at least be presented.
Regarding proportionallity, I won't argue there, I will comply and begin compiling all work related to Gardel during his lifetime. These include official documents, articles written about him and interviews published in several newspapers of note (from several continents). These outnumber by a wide margin the few books regarding the second theory.
- You are welcome to bring information to the article. At some point, the amount of information devoted to Uruguay as a birthplace will cross a threshold of undue weight, and any further information will be removed. That threshold is a judgment call—I am leaning toward severity but others might be more lenient. No matter what changes you make, the article will always need to tell the reader that the mainstream opinion of scholars is that Gardel, informally called "El francesito" (Frenchie) by his barra (group of male friends), was born in France. WP:NPOV requires no less. Binksternet (talk) 23:12, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
It is not the mainstream of scholars that believe he was born in Toulouse, it is the mainstream of scholars that you are allowing to be referenced. What you are doing constitutes censorship.
- You have not proven your point. You have not shown a long list of books saying Gardel was born in Uruguay. Binksternet (talk) 15:30, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
I have proven my point, I'll clarify in case you missed it. I really do not care where the man was born. I know that there are two theories, and wanted to show the documentation that backs them. --Zorzaluruguay (talk) 21:30, 1 September 2012 (UTC)
- That news item quotes a book that we already have in the article as a reference:
- In the news article, I like the photo of the authors. Binksternet (talk) 15:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- The book referenced in the article is not the same (that one is 6 years old, and this one just came out). The new book (by the same authors) is called "El padre de Gardel" (Gardel's Father), edited by Proa/Amerian Editores. --Nazroon (talk) 16:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
- Actually it's a different book, called El padre de Gardel and published by Proa Amerian Editores. Most importantly, unlike Carlos Gardel: Sus Antecedentes Franceses it contains conclusive evidence of his birth certificate, showing that his real name, Charles Romuald Gardes, was recorded on December 11, 1890 at the register office in Toulouse, France. --184.108.40.206 (talk) 18:20, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Can anyone prove that a child born in Tolouse with a name similar ( but not the same) to another child born in Tacuarembo three years earlier, are in fact the same child? or can we also start pulling birth certificates of other children born around the same time with similar names and claim that they are in fact the same Carlos Gardel that has several documents stating his birth place as Tacuarembo, same documents that contain his fingerprints and picture. Why would the French be proud of a person that was a fraudster that did not want to fight for his supposed country? I rather would keep Gardel in history as an honest Uruguayan than a coward, fraudster French. Wouldn't you? He is too big for any of us to be treated with such a disrespect. Gabriel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.127.116.11 (talk) 22:35, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
The article says "for unknown reasons he laid a false trail about his birthplace beginning in 1920 when he was almost 30" and "there is no agreement regarding why he took these steps" (i.e. saying that he was born in Tacuarembó). I think it is worth the mention that the opinion of the majority of the scholars is that he did that to avoid being forced to join the military for France, in WWI. The latest book, which confirms his French nationality (link in section "Birth certificate" right up this section), acknowledges this. --Nazroon (talk) 15:26, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
I am not sure where to place this as reference. It is an article of El Pais, after the birth certificate issue, which argues for the Uruguayan position. http://www.elpais.com.uy/121021/pespec-670872/espectaculos/-nos-contaron-algo-que-no-tiene-nada-que-ver-con-gardel-/ Cheers, Hoverfish Talk 10:32, 22 October 2012 (UTC)
- See Template:Infobox musical artist. The "origin" parameter is commonly used to show the difference between where a singer was born and where he first became famous. Gardel is a prime example of someone who did not become famous in the place where he was born. Binksternet (talk) 01:40, 20 October 2012 (UTC)
Go to the first source
I know about the controversy about Gardel's nationality. At least include the fact that there is a Carlos Gardel´s Museum in Uruguay with documents, including his birth certificate that proves that he was born in Uruguay. Does it make any sense?
http://www.tacuarembodigital.com.uy/gardeliana_museo.html Tacuarembo Digital.com.uy You can see the photographs of the documents that proves his Uruguayan origin.
I know many people have visited the museum and seen the documents. Do you want me to upload a photograph of his birth certificate in commons?
- The certificate on display in Uruguay is not original, not written when he was born. Gardel obtained a new birth certificate in 1920 when he was beginning to get famous, when he was thinking about touring France as a tango singer. Binksternet (talk) 04:07, 19 May 2013 (UTC)
- He also misses the point that Gardel's own trusted attorney released Gardels' statement about his birth and later historians verified it with the corroborating birth certificate in France. There is also an entire section in the article reviewing the controversy. It doesn't need to have an edit war. MartinezMD (talk) 22:59, 1 December 2013 (UTC)