Talk:Carolingian dynasty

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject France (Rated Start-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject France, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of France on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Italy (Rated Start-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Italy, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles on Italy on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Former countries / Holy Roman Empire  (Rated Start-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Former countries, a collaborative effort to improve Wikipedia's coverage of defunct states and territories (and their subdivisions). If you would like to participate, please join the project.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by Holy Roman Empire task force.
 
WikiProject Middle Ages (Rated Start-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Middle Ages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the Middle Ages on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

[Untitled][edit]

If someone were to summarize the Carolingian Dynasty, what would you say?

issues in this article[edit]

  • French version of this article states that the name carolingian comes from Charlemagne and not from Charles Martel. Where is the truth?
  • carlovingian looks like a mistake
  • there are two contradictory explanations of the origin of the term carolingian in this article, one near the top and the other at the bottom
Theywere called Carlovingians until the XIXth century. -- lucasbfr talk 16:31, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok I looked on a lot of french websites, the consensus is that the name is from Charlemagne, even if Charles Martel is the father of the first Carolingian king. Since that is what I learned at school too. I don't modify the article though, I have a reasonnable doubt since the explanation of the name seems pleasible. The French school textbooks however credit Charlemagne (Ref: [1]) -- lucasbfr talk 16:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Ok I'm editing the article to reflect that change -- lucasbfr talk 19:42, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I removed the following, since I found no evidence of this on the Internet and there is no source:
The term Carolingian (and the variant "Carlovingian") is from Medieval Latin Carolingi (var. "Karolingi", "Carlovingi", "Karlovingi"), formed from the Latin "Carolus" and the Germanic suffix "-ing", meaning "people of" or "descendants of." Hence, the term literally means "descendants of Charles Martel."
-- lucasbfr talk 19:47, 18 October 2006 (UTC)

Descendants[edit]

What about dynasties with claims of origin from Carolingians? It seems House of Flanders claim to be Carolingian branch. I think it was not lonely in this question.212.86.230.114 (talk) 09:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

A section on the Carolingian afterlife would make an excellent addition to this article. A few paragraphs of well-written prose explaining the various dynasties, families, and individuals that claimed Carolingian descent, through whom, and why, what it gained them, in short, the phenomenon of Carolingian descent, not just a list of dynasties that claimed such, is what is called for. If you can do it, or start it, please go ahead. If you can merely assemble a list which can help direct other editors, that is fine too. I will probably think about writing something on this soon if nobody else does, since it is a rather interesting and important facet of the Carolingians. A paragraph on the Carolingians after 987 is also needed. In general, this article could be expanded. Srnec (talk) 19:11, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree the article should be expanded. Adelaide is mentioned as the last Carolingian (although I always thought that a wife took her husband's titles upon marriage, so I'm assuming this means she was the last person to die who was born as a Carolingian - minor point, but not so minor when you look through the list of Carolingians and Louis of Lower Lorraine is then named as the "last legitimate Carolingian" and of course, Adelaide was not illegitimate in the usual sense of the word (her parents were married). The question is whether or not the court of barons had the right to strip Odo of the title of Count of Vermandois and give it to Adelaide. If not, then Louis of Lower Lorraine "wins." It cannot simply be the case that a younger daughter suddenly gets inserted into this outline of Carolingians, she is special because she inherited her father's title (unusual) while her brother still lived and she did not inherit it or have it legitimized by her father. I am guessing that the article is taking the view that the court's decision to set aside Odo is legal and therefore legitimate (so the words after Louis of Lower Lorraine should perhaps be removed?) In the case of Bernard of Italy (who was illegitimate), he managed to be born while Charlemagne was still alive, and Charlemagne legitimized him - setting a precedent that it was the King who legitimized - which is why Adelaide's claim is perhaps not quite proper. It seems possible that Charlemagne's son Pepin had other illegitimate sons, but it was only Bernard who was legitimized and Charlemagne specifically left Italy to Bernard after legitimizing him. And because I really like encyclopedias to be crystal clear, there is the problem of Peter of Vermandois, as well, whose death date and possibility of legitimate children seem to be unknown. While it is doubtful he outlived Adelaide, and it seems someone should have noticed if he married, I can't find any information about him beyond the fact that he existed (so perhaps a "died without issue?" including question mark should be put next his name. I'm guessing (and I shouldn't have to be) that the reason Louis of Lower Lorraine is listed as the last "legitimate Carolingian" is that his is the only line from Charlemagne where a son born out of wedlock doesn't appear (even though Charlemagne legitimized Bernard). Or is someone questioning the council of baron's decision? But it is confusing that two last Carolingians are on the same page (and that Arnulf, Archbishop of Reims - who also has no bastards in his line - isn't mentioned as the last legitimate Carolingian since he outlived his cousin Louis of LL, according to this article). Confusing to those of us obsessed with details.LeValley 21:16, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Table rather than list[edit]

I object to the list. It covers 12 generations, which means the editor had to come with 12 systems of enumeration. Even if you use the Greek and Hebrew alphabets, Carolingian and Roman, upper and lower case, you don't have enough. So, the editor repeats systems. As an organizational system it is meaningless and unuseful. Even the mathematicians don't require 12 systems of enumeration. I found a tabular way to organize it. The entries get placed in a grid 12 cells wide. Everything is lined up in a matrix. If you want to know what generation the lookup is in you count cells from the left. I'm building the table in a comment. If you want to take a look uncomment it and preview it but DO NOT save it. When I finish it I will uncomment it and comment the unusable outline. Now, I would not mind putting the outline in the grid if we had 12 unique and comprehensible numbering systems. But we don't, unless you want to do the whole thing in a numbering scheme containing 12 hexadecimal digits, which is what you look as though you are aiming at. Each Carolingian would have a unique number that would specify what generation of what branch he was in. Although that would be great software massaging it is not so great for us ordinary persons. I think my matrix is much more readable. Anyway it will be in there as soon as I can get it done.Dave (talk) 03:31, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

France box[edit]

If we are going to have the list of Carolingians the France box gets in the way. It takes up the entire right for far down the article. Furthermore, it does not align with the box above it. We could make it align by allowing entry of the width parameter but that would leave even less width for the body of the article. I suggest the topic of the box is redundant with the boxes on the bottom and furthermore most of the topics in the box do not concern the Carolingians. The Carolingians were not French nationals as such. I think it is one box too many and as soon as I get the table done will take it out to make room for the table. You wanted to put 12 generations in and those require pretty much the whole width of the article.Dave (talk) 05:20, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Severe problems[edit]

This article suffers severe problems. It lacks content and detail, to begin with. Worse, the newly added section, "Rise to Power and Military Organization," directly conflicts with the existing History section. The History section states that the traditional view of a long rise to power is now rejected in favor of the aspirations of Pepin as a singular driving force. The new section sets out the long rise to power view, directly contradicting the prior section. I am trying to copyedit the page, but the writing is often too vague to simply clean up, and the direct contradictions necessitate significant re-tooling. I'll attempt to reconcile the sections, primarily through paring the new section down to the material on Military Organization. But the article needs a lot of work and better grounding in the source materials. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 21:43, 17 May 2013 (UTC)