|WikiProject Catalan-speaking Countries|
|WikiProject Spain||(Rated Start-class, Top-importance)|
- 1 Balearic Isles, Valencia, etc
- 2 Not neutral sentence
- 3 extent
- 4 Great contribution of Catalan nationalism to Spanish democratization
- 5 2010 Protest caption
- 6 Age of Discovery edit
- 7 Aragonese / Catalan king
- 8 Catalan independentism and Catalan nationalism
- 9 propose a new section: dangerous childrens manipulation in catalonia - for independence - schools,tv,etc.
Balearic Isles, Valencia, etc
Are there any facts, figures, opinion polls etc on Catalan nationalism in the Balearic Isles, Valencia, etc? What has made Catalan nationalism so weak in Valencia? Is there any active agitation for adjusting the border with Aragon so that La Franja forms part of Catalonia? What role does Catalanism play in Andorra? And what is the current situation of Catalan nationalism in Roussillon and Alghero? If anybody's got answers to these questions, I'd love to see them! Best, QuartierLatin 1968 01:14, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
- Tu peux chercher ici: Catalan government site:  ; and also       with some polls and statistics, and this personal one: .
Au revoir!. --Joan sense nick 02:18, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Not neutral sentence
This sentence "Catalan nationalism departs from the unsuccesfull attempts to establish a federal state in Spain in the context of the First Republic" is at least NOT NEUTRAL Many sources would agree that it started the same day Catalonia loosed the war against Castilla (September 11, 1714, by the way the National Day of Catalonia). Please see the House of Lords Journals of these dates. Another point of view should be added.
- Documents about the case of the catalans dated on 1714, at the House of Lords, UK.
- Journal of the House of Lords: volume 19, 2 August 1715, Further Articles of Impeachment against E. Oxford brought from H.C. Article VI.
- The birth of a nation at the Museum of the History of Catalonia site.
Stop bullshit! There is no a war between "Catalonia" and Castillia, but a war between Habsburg and Borbon. Catalonia was already a part of Spain. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 18.104.22.168 (talk) 19:26, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion, the recently added (and removed) "small fraction" and pan-catalanist note should be reinstated, if not under that wording, . Because, indeed, it is a small fraction in Catalan nationalism (CUP and others) because we can't seriously argue that ERC actively campaigns for the "ideal" extension of the "Catalan Countries", can we?
At this point they are centered in their own backyard, the "ideal" thing is for, well, I guess "idealists" or something ;)
- We do not interpret the Catalan nationalist organizations in the same way. It could be the case that we are analyzing the topic from two different criteria: (1) what the organizations claim they want to do and (2) what they really do. I am doing some searching for sources that could be useful later on to find the wording in the article.
- According to the first criteria, I think that the Catalan Countries as the framework for the demands of the (non Spanish) nationalism therein is quite majoritary in these organizations. Just take a look on the following documents: Declaració ideològica d'ERC (they explicitly stipulate the Catalan Countries as the nation they work for), Declaració política del Bloc Nacional i d'Esquerres a les Illes Balears (they aim to strengthen the link between Catalan-speaking countries), Catalunya a Europa i el món, Ponència de CIU (when talking about the future development of the European Union, page 13, they demand that the legal framework should not prevent the Catalan Countries from being recognized as a European region), CUP presentation on their web page (they choose the Catalan Countries as their framework from the very beginning), Ponència del Bloc Nacionalista Valencià (they claim it is their goal to "achieve full sovereignty for the Valencian people, legally declared by a Valencian sovereign Constitution which allows the possibility of association with the countries which share the same language, history and culture"). However, under the second criterion the issue could be more controversial, and this is what you probably mean. But still, it looks quite clear to me that the ERC guys are working hard on that (they have established the party, or a federation of the party, in almost all those regions). What do you think? --Carles Noguera (talk) 15:12, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- In my opinion is much more simple than that. I mean, if we look at papers, grand statements and else, indeed you got it right that the Països Catalans issue exists at all.
- But if we look to down the street everyday political life, this is a no-no issue. Do you think the Països Catalans is a real issue in Catalonia these days? let alone in Valencia, Balearic, Franja, Alguer, Carche etc, etc. It is not.
- I think we agree in that is not an issue at this point, regardless of how many papers we can cite, is that correct?
- There are, of course, a bunch of people who do care and talk about it (mostly at the CUP, ERPV, JERC (sic :P) and ERC-Illes Balears). But those, considered among the wider Catalan nationalist group, are definitely "a small fraction" and I can't see why we should conceal this fact.
- If the thing is that you find this "small fraction" wording not particularly fortunate, you can go ahead with any other of your own choosing, but I hope what I am saying makes sense to you, too....even though you never know with you guys :P Mountolive group using a loop of another pop group 16:05, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- I agree the wording is far from perfect, and this "ideally" can be ambiguous. But before we find the good words to write it, we still have some disagreement about facts. In my previous message hopefully I managed to show that the concern with the Països Catalans issue is explicit in the ideological declarations of the main nationalist parties in these territories. However, you still object that it is not an issue in the everyday political life. Your claim was probably true a few years ago, but in recent times the situation has changed somehow. Some relevant political actors in these countries seem to be actively concerned with the issue of the shared language and culture, at least inasmuch as some of the involved governments are reaching collaborative agreements which are supposed to lead to the creation of the Ramon Llull Foundation (headquartered in Andorra) based on the already existing Ramon Llull Institute. --Carles Noguera (talk) 20:06, 6 August 2008 (UTC)
- Mhhh...so you think the Països Catalans issue is indeed alive outside the JERC casal (next to Jordi Bilbeny's latest) or outside of, well, Wikipedia? I guess there is some presence, but if we assess its relevance in WP:DUE terms, I dont think PPCC will make it...the last time I heard of those (outside of wikipedia, that is) was when Laporta made his own Camp Nou show (this guy is trying hard for me to defect...and he's almost made it!) and then the satisfied faces at PP HQs in Valencia rising to the occasion given on a silver plate...when was that? a couple years ago, right? Other than that, and waiting for the next, I still fail to see the issue of any real relevance.
- I am checking now the definition of "Catalanism" in a couple of quite different paper encyclopedies. GREC: "Moviment que propugna el reconeixement de la personalitat política de Catalunya o dels Països Catalans". Diccionario enciclopédico Salvat: "Nombre dado al movimiento nacionalista catalán surgido en el siglo XIX al mismo tiempo que otros movimientos nacionalistas europeos". So, the GREC admits the Catalan Countries as a possible framework for such a movement from the beginning. Salvat does not. Therefore, there is not an easy way to deal with the issue. I would propose the following:
- Rename the article to Catalanism.
- Redirect "Catalan Nationalism" to this one.
- Write in the introduction something very simple and neutral like this: Catalanism is the name given to the Catalan Nationalism movement.
- Then, I would create a new section about the geographical scope (and intensity) of the nationalist demands.
- Let me know. --Carles Noguera (talk) 19:00, 9 August 2008 (UTC)
Dear colleagues, I have implemented my proposal, trying to address at the same time the concerns of Mountolive, the anonymous user and myself. Notice I have tried to distinguish between the demands written in official congress documents of the parties and their everyday political activities. I have also kept the link to pan-nationalism as proposed by Mountolive and the anonymous colleague, even though I am afraid it may lead to some wrong identification of Catalan nationalism with some tragical episodes of Europe's recent history. Of course, the text is to still to be improved and any collaboration is welcome. --Carles Noguera (talk) 11:23, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- Hi Carles.
- I think you should undo yourself with the name changing. That is a quite important change which should be discussed.
- I didnt engage in discussion because, as you know, the catawikisystem is overheating and I think it is better that the more responsible people (the types of you and I) keep things calmed as far as we are concerned.
- We will have time to address this, but I guess I owe you at least one reason for naming the article back. Google hits for Catalan nationalism= about 165,000; Google hits for Catalanism about 8,370. So out there in the web Catalanism amounts to 5% of Catalan nationalism.
- That is only one of a series of reason which, in any case, I would like you to please not discuss at this point. We will keep this in our to-do list for a near future, is that ok?
- In the meantime, if you dont mind, please change back the name until we hold some proper discussion on this relevant change.
- Thank you very much, Carles. Really.
- As a part of this step back, I have only partially restored the lead to the previous established version until we start a proper debate. I hope you are ok with it. Mountolive group using a loop of another pop group 16:20, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
The respect to the culture and the opinion of a community is the base of all knowledge. An encyclopedia and any person who boasts to defend the culture must fight by this. Over any discussion with innumerable reasons it is the objective truth, and in this case it is that the Valencians never have felt nor feel Catalan. Any attempt to impose the opposite will be incorrect. Any attempt to put to the Valencians in a community (linguistic, cultural or political) under denomination of "Catalan" it will mean the elimination of a people and a culture. The Valencians have their own history as kingdom of Valencia (before the conquest of Jaume I already the Kingdom of Valencia even existed), its own Literature (innumerable examples, to only mention some: Ausias March and Joanot Martorell), its own traditions (that are not those of Catalonia), Its own culture (in all the scopes, that she is not Catalan), its own control systems (they are not a province of Catalonia and it has never formed part of no organization or Catalan nation) and its own language (of origin different from the Catalan language –provençal- with category of official language and the conscience of its speakers to speak "Valencian", independently of which it is looked like the Catalan). If the Valencians never have tried to absorve the culture of Catalonia, nor to distort the history of Catalonia, nor, really to eliminate Catalonia like independent reality of Valencia, why the Catalans yes do all this, and they do not respect the Valencians? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 22.214.171.124 (talk) 19:44, 27 January 2011 (UTC)
Great contribution of Catalan nationalism to Spanish democratization
It's widely known that the Catalan nationalism was essential in order for Spain to democratize its internal structures after the 40-year Franco's dictatorship. Without the Catalan nationalism collaboration, the Spanish state would have remained prisoner of Spanish nationalism undemocratic activities: state terrorism (GAL terrorist group, created by the Spanish government to literally torture and eventually kill Basque terrorists), high levels of state corruption, persecution and torture of Catalan and Basque activists and so on. Although many of these undemocratic activities are still taking place in Spain, they have been reduced considerably. --Mreq (talk) 19:07, 29 September 2008 (UTC) I forgot the most important thing. I propose to list all these contributions, or at least to describe them carefully. --Mreq (talk) 19:11, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
- Oh, my god. Patillotes (talk) 19:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
"Democratic", of course, for example, the murders (Bultó, Viola), the shots against journalists (Jiménez Losantos), the lynchings against no-nationalist politicians (PP, UPyD, C's), the linguistic fines against Spanish speakers...
I've reverted Diotime's edit of the caption showing the 2010 Som una nació. Nosaltres decidim protest, to reflect the widely disparate estimations of participants.
If you visit the Wikipedia page about the protest (2010 Catalan autonomy protest), you will find that it lists numerous diverging figures for number of participants, from other reputable sources such as the Guàrdia Urbana (Barcelona Police), and El País newspaper. Rather than limit the figure here to a single source (which has itself been criticized for the way in which it arrived at its figure), I think it would be more appropriate to put a range. I see that as more in the spirit of honesty and NPOV.
- Apart from the fact that neither the Guardia Urbana not El País have explained their methodology - which is explained in detail at the LYNCE page -, if methodologies with a sound technical background are considered unacceptable or put at the same level as information subjected to serious flaws (opinion-biased sources such as newspapers or even the organizers themselves - who are the ones who gave the hard-to-believe 1.5 million figure), it is better to remove the information on the attendance of the event. The war on numbers at Spanish demonstrations is a long-term problem where all newspapers and other media have been involved, and fueled by the heavy involvement of media in political confrontation and this is what triggered the appearance of the LYNCE company, after some other amateur initiatives such as El Manifestómetro enjoyed ample media coverage. We are too used to read that a demonstration was attended by millions of people and we now think 50,000 people is nothing, where it is actually something really extraordinary that reflects the expression of a very wide portion of the society - think only of all people that would never ever, no matter what, go to a demonstration.--Diotime (talk) 12:37, 29 June 2012 (UTC)
Age of Discovery edit
Aragonese / Catalan king
Untill the "Compromís de Casp" the king was not Aragonese, even if he was king of Aragon. He also was king Valencia and Mallorca, and in fact of Catalonia but using the title of "Count of Barcelona", showing by this that he never had been officialy set free from his feudal duties by the Emperor. But he was Catalan, of the family of Barcelona, and used Catalan as his personal language, at it's shown, for example, in the chronicle of James I ("Llibre dels Fets"), written by himself in Catalan. That's why I think it is not correct to talk about the kings of the House of Barcelona as "Aragonese kings". Oppositely, it's exact to say that Ferdinand I of Aragon was a Castillian king. --FredericG — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 17:00, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
- I've changed Catalan king to just king, this way it should be free of controversy. Jotamar (talk) 15:53, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
Catalan independentism and Catalan nationalism
- Not all Catalan Nationalists are in favor of full independence, at least in theory. Catalan Nationalism is about promoting the Catalan language, protecting the Catalan usages and customs, etc, but not necessarily in a separate state. Jotamar (talk) 13:50, 5 December 2012 (UTC)
propose a new section: dangerous childrens manipulation in catalonia - for independence - schools,tv,etc.
In schools, children learn to hate what is different (especially if coming from the rest of Spain), while schools and recreation is decorated with flags and pro-independence Catalan and Catalan countries everywhere. Without respecting their freedom of thought. Like fascism sack. http://www.elconfidencial.com/espana/2013/06/28/mas-hace-la-vista-gorda-simbolos-independentistas-en-escuelas-infantiles-catalanas-123794 http://www.vozbcn.com/2013/07/04/141615/aumentan-colegios-simbolos-independentistas/
Spanish immigrants Handling: teaching them to Andalucia / Extremadura / Cuenca, etc are territories uneducated foreigners, poor and without a future, alongside their wealthy and cultured gentlemen Catalans. Catalunya is always better and bigger and more free, more cool. So they have q be 2nd Catalan, as vampires have minions. Handling teach culture from TV3 -regional TV, reality too mucho different and interested. See people actually induces maladaptive to live outside the four provinces and Spain increases hatred. http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2012/10/12/espana/1350042963.html http://www.abc.es/local-cataluna/20130916/abci-television-catalana-dedica-programa-201309161919.html Handling Handling anger at independence all the better, because we Catalans are best at everything. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 23:25, 26 September 2013 (UTC)