Talk:Cathach of St. Columba

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Untitled[edit]

What is meant by "Gaelic rubrics"? Rubrics written in Old Irish? Rubrics written in uncial script? I can't even tell if the text of the manuscript is in Old Irish or Latin. Please elucidate! --Angr/tɔk tə mi 06:40, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing that up! --Angr/tɔk tə mi 10:52, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

But now I have another question. I'm trying to jibe what the article says with what Rudolf Thurneysen's Old Irish Grammar says about early manuscripts with Old Irish written in them. He mentions (p. 9) Irish names "in the Vita Columbae compiled by Adamnan (Adomnán) between 688 and 704 and preserved in a manuscript written before A.D. 713." Is the Cathach the manuscript he means? --Angr/tɔk tə mi 11:02, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

I think not. The Cathach is a Psalter. A Psalter is the the Book of Psalms, plus some extra hymns and canticles. (The Cathach, however is incomplete and only contans a portion of the Book of Psalms). I don't know in which manuscript(s) Adamnan's Vita Columbae is preserved. It is of course possible that oldest extant copy of Adamnan's text is several centuries younger than the text itself. Dsmdgold 02:57, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Well, what it comes down is the fact that I can't find any reference to the Cathach in Thuneysen at all, which is surprising if it's really the oldest manuscript containing Irish. Is the text of the Cathach available online anywhere? Has it been published? --Angr/tɔk tə mi 07:50, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
As far as I know, there is not a transcription of the Cathach online. The text of the Vulgate is available several places, which would include the Latin text of the Psalms. It would not include the rubrics, however. The Royal Irish Academy published a CD-rom of the Cathach in 2002. My source for the claim that it contains Irish rubrics is from the RIA website (here). There is a a black and white image of a page of the Cathach in which one can see the rubrics, but not, alas, read them, here. When was Thuneysen published? The Cathach was not rediscovered until 1842, and, so far as I know, did not have a facsimile of it until the 2002 CD-rom. Dsmdgold 10:40, 24 September 2005 (UTC)
Thurneysen was originally published in German in 1909; the English translation (which certainly would have included notes of new discoveries since then) in 1946, so he certainly ought to have known about it. Maybe it's just an omission on Thurneyesen's part. Or maybe if the rubrics don't even include whole sentences but just isolated words, he didn't consider it worth mentioning as it reveals nothing about Old Irish grammar. --Angr/tɔk tə mi 12:03, 24 September 2005 (UTC)

Size of folios[edit]

This has had a disputed tag. I wonder if the larger size is that of the modern vellum mounts (see RIA website full description). Johnbod 03:55, 7 April 2007 (UTC)


I wouldn't think that the RIA would specify the size of the mounts rather than the original folios. That would be rather misleading. Someone could always contact the RIA librarian to verify, though. Where did the 200 by 130 mm come from? ColmCille 06:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Controversy clarification[edit]

Hi. Just passing by. The controversy that leads the article sounds interesting but it is not very clear to me, a layman reader. Can it be expanded? Canuckle 00:31, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Copyright infringement[edit]

This cathach is being used as an uncited sample image on the Copyright Infringement page, if there was contreversy over the document it should appear here as well. As such, I have found no such claim in my limited search, so if anyone has references to this event please add them to both this page and a citation to the copyright infringement page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nazlfrag (talkcontribs) 10:20, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

http://www.ria.ie/library+catalogue/cathach.html perhaps? Angus McLellan (Talk) 16:43, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


Here's the story. St. Columba copied a psalter without permission from St. Finnian. When the local king ruled that the copy belonged to Finnian. Columba gathered together his relatives and a battle ensued. Columba in penance for the battle founded Iona. The Cathach was traditionally identified as Columba'a copy, but current scholarly consensus is that it was made a century or so later. This is all mentioned in the article: "It is traditionally associated with St. Columba (d. 597), and was identified as the copy made by him of a book loaned to him by St. Finnian, and which led to the Battle of Cul Dremne in 561. " Dsmdgold (talk) 17:04, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Second oldest copy of Psalms in the world[edit]

The article made the claim that this is the second oldest copy of Psalms in the world. Since I know that there are at least four older (Sinaiticus, Vaticanus, Alexandrinus, and the DSS), I removed that portion of text. I did want to drop a note here however and suggest that perhaps the intent was to say something else, such as "second oldest copy of the Psalms in Latin" or "second oldest Psalter" (as opposed to simply copy of Psalms). I am fairly certain that the author didn't mean "second oldest complete copy" since this copy is not complete, and they couldn't have meant "second oldest copy in Ireland" since they state in the same sentence that this is the single oldest manuscript in Ireland. In any event, the statement as it stood was obviously false. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.223.32.114 (talk) 13:08, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I've added a reference to a source (Martin McNamara' The Psalms in the Early Irish Church), that states that "it is the second oldest Latin Psalter text we know". BabelStone (talk) 15:53, 27 December 2011 (UTC)