|This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:|
- 1 "Cathedral"
- 2 Eastern Orthodox Cathedrals
- 3 Dubuque Photo
- 4 Meath, Ireland
- 5 opening
- 6 Lack of headings
- 7 Strasbourg
- 8 Byzantine cathedrals
- 9 Biggest, tallest...
- 10 Patriarchal basilica
- 11 Freemasonry
- 12 Pictures
- 13 Some additional info
- 14 Additional sections
- 15 Where were there Provosts?
- 16 Gallery
- 17 Image copyright problem with Image:Palayamkottai.jpg
- 18 English detail removed
- 19 monastic cathedrals
- 20 Durham Cathedral
- 21 The Cathedral Building
- 22 Budolfi Church in Aalborg
- 23 Cathedral
- 24 Parish churches vs. cathedrals peculiar
Amandajm, by all accounts an otherwise excellent article writer, reverted a minor correction to the intro, so I just need to make a note of it here, if she reverts it again. "Cathedral" does come from Latin and French words used to indicate the seat of a bishop. However, by analogy/metonymy, the current English meaning of the word also comprises any other large Christian ecclesiastical edifice, Catholic or otherwise. That's acknowledged, but confusingly dealt with, in the discussion about Scottish & other "cathedrals" even within the current heading.
This article is not Cathedral (Catholic) and the "the seat of a bishop" is not the only valid (or even principal, depending on one's dictionary) meaning of the term in English.
- The matter is addressed in the article.
- "Large grand church" is not the principal definition in any reliable dictionary.
- I am very sorry to say that a rather garbled defintion is in Wikionary, as well as the correct one. it says
- "1.A big church building, central place for some area."
- "2.The principal church of a bishop's diocese which contains an episcopal throne."
- It is plain to any informed reader that the person who wrote the first definition had only a vague idea which they have expressed incoherently as "central place for some area", presumably not knowing the word "diocese" or precisely in what way it was "central place".
- This edit was hidden for months by another editor who realised that it was just a bad way of expressing the real meaning. However, someone more recently removed the formatting that hid this definition.
- The result is that, although it has been questioned by at least two editors, the "primary" defintion on Wiktionary is the wrong one.
- I think we'll just stick with correct defintion.
- "Cathedral" does not mean "any other large Christian edifice", as stated above, except perhaps to those who only use the word very occasionally and are unaware of its proper meaning.
- The notion that this is now its "primary meaning" is foolishness.
- Amandajm (talk) 08:58, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
- "by analogy" v. "erroneously". This is the wrong way to express it. In general, as I have pointed out to LLywelynII on their homepage, the term "cathedral" is more frequently used for a large church in error than by analogy.
- The reasons are either that the speaker is ignorant of the true meaning, or else does know the meaning but does not know the ecclesiatical status of the particular building. The two buildings which cause the most confusion in this regard ar Saint Peter's Basilica and Saint Mark's, Venice]], which tourists often call St Peter's Cathedral and St Mark's Cathedral, presuming that this is their function. However neither functions as the seat of a presiding bishop.
- The only church that comes immediately to mind as being called a cathedral in the "analogous" sense is Tideswell Church which has been called "the Cathedral of the Peak" on account of its beauty for a very long time, for 70 years that I know of, but I suspect from the 19th century. This "analogous" use is uncommon.
- The other way in which "cathedral" is use is when people apply it metaphorically in a context that has nothing to do with churches whatsoever. This use includes phrases such as "cathedral of learning" when applied ot a university, "cathedral of commerce", when applied to a business or a stock market. The term is sometimes used descriptively of a forest, a cave or other natural feature that conjours up the appearance or atmosphere of a cathedral.
- The disambig page can state this sort of thing. This page needs to be about what a "cathedral" actually is.
- Amandajm (talk) 09:22, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
- The above comments by Amandajm smack of POV editing and pushing a narrow viewpoint. Most Protestant denominations don't believe in the need for "bishops," but we still see the word "cathedral" used for large edifices such as the "Crystal Cathedral."
Contrary to your biased, POV editing, Amandajm, we see the dictionary state:
ca·the·dral (k-thdrl) n. 1. The principal church of a bishop's diocese, containing the episcopal throne. 2. A large, important church. 3. Something that resembles a cathedral, as in grandeur or authority. adj. 1. Of, relating to, or containing a bishop's throne: a cathedral church. 2. Relating to or issuing from a chair of office or authority; authoritative. 3. Of, relating to, or resembling a cathedral: tall trees whose branches met to form cathedral arches over the path.
As you mentioned, St. Mark's in Venice is often referred to as a "cathedral," and according to dictionary definition 2, they're right. You can't change that, it's original research.22.214.171.124 (talk) 04:55, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
- The term "cathedral" has to do, specifically, with the presence of a "cathedra" and has nothing whatsoever to do with size. Modern common usage has expanded its use to include "big church", hence "Crystal Cathedral". And common usage is really not highly dependent upon the speaker being well-informed, and using words in their true sense.
- Nothing will make St Mark's correctly a cathedral. To refer to this ancient building which is officially designated a basilica as a cathedral is both erroneous and confusing, (likewise St. Peter's Basilica). Neither is a cathedral by function, so, ecclesiastically speaking, they are not cathedrals, regardless of common application of the term.
- However, I will leave your edit intact as it acknowledges common usage, while the article itself focuses on the function of real cathedrals, rather than those that bear the name.
- To give you another example: The word "castle" is often loosely applied, like the word "cathedral". Castle Howard is not a castle. It is a country house. Sissinghurst Castle is not a castle. It's the remains of a large country house. Neither would appear in an article about castles.
- Amandajm (talk) 10:00, 19 October 2010 (UTC)
Re St. Mark's, Venice, as a cathedral. From The Blue Guides - Northern Italy : from the Alps to Rome, ed. Stuart Rossiter MA (C) Ernest & Benn Ltd., London (p.284) "Though the basilica has been a cathedral only since 1807 ...". From The Companion Guide to Venice, by Hugh Honour, pub. Collins, London, (c) Hugh Honour 1965, (p.29) "First of all, it is important to remember that San Marco did not become a cathedral until 1807. (The Patriarchal palace on the left dates mainly from the 1830s)". As for "Big Church", after the reformation in Scotland St Giles Cathedral in Edinburgh ceased to be a cathedral because the Church of Scotland, as a Presbyterian church, does not have bishops. It became the High Kirk of Edinburgh. However, the locals were used to calling it St. Giles Cathedral and, in popular but not ecclesiastical usage, have not broken their habit. See St. Giles' own web site  "In 1633, King Charles I appointed Scottish Episcopal bishops in Scotland and in 1635 William Forbes became the first bishop of the new diocese of Edinburgh, with St Giles’ as its cathedral, which it remained until 1638 and again from 1661-1689. That St Giles’ is commonly called a cathedral dates from this period." I hope those quotes help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 126.96.36.199 (talk) 00:22, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
Eastern Orthodox Cathedrals
"The term "cathedral" is not officially used in Eastern Orthodoxy, the church of a bishop being known as "the great church", though cathedral is commonly used in English translations. The Oriental Orthodox Churches similarly do not have cathedrals as such, however some major churches like Saint Mark's Coptic Orthodox Cathedral in Cairo are called cathedrals."
I'm going to delete this because it's actually not true. The term "cathedral" is used officially, just not very often in some languages. In the Greek Orthodox Church, the terms "kathedrikos naos" (literally: "cathedral shrine") and "metropolis" (literally "mother city") are used interchangeably to describe the same thing. "Metropolis" is more common, but both terms are officially used. If someone wants to replace it with a more accurate parapraph, that would be cool. Skyduster (talk) 00:10, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Cathedrals are swwweeettt dude.Most of these cathedral photos are great, but what is up with Saint Raphael's Cathedral, Dubuque, Iowa? First of all, it's not a very important cathedral. But even if there is a desire for a modest example (perhaps to counter the idea that a cathedral is always towering and impressive), there could at least be a photo that doesn't look like it was taken through the trees from someone's apartment window. It's terrible. emw 16:19, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
Traces of the tribal and migratory system may still be noted in the designations of the Irish see of Meath (where the result has been that there is now no cathedral church)
Above line is disputed (but I have left it in the text for now!). Which See of Meath is it talking about? Roman Catholic or Church of Ireland? (The Ecclesiastical Titles Act meant that Roman Catholicism and the Church of England use different names for their seas. In Ireland most use the same or similar names.
The Roman Catholic diocese does have a cathedral. It used to be St. Mary's Church in Navan, Co. Meath. In the early twentieth century, it was moved to a new location, and is now The Cathedral of Christ the King in Mullingar. Unfortunately I don't know any details about the Church of Ireland diocese, other than (a) the Bishops used to live in Ardbraccan, outside Navan but now live in County Kildare; (b) the diocese is now known as the Diocese of Meath and Kildare. So even if Meath itself doesn't have a Church of Ireland cathedral (though centuries ago, there used to be a cathedral in Trim, Co. Meath, which may be pre-reformation - I'll have to check Dean Cogan's History of the RC diocese of Meath), Kildare might have one. Anyone out there know the answer. (In any case I'll check with the C of I if I get the chance. If they do have a diocesian cathedral, I'll axe this line. In the meantime, I am putting a strike through. JtdIrL 04:00 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)
> A Cathedral is a (frequently but not always large) Christian church, the central church of a bishopric.
That sounds pretty clumsy. What about moving the large bit to the end -- although I can't offhand think of a graceful phrasing. The best I can do offhand is:
A Cathedral is a Christian church, the central church of a bishopric, and usually an imposing building.
- Eliminating the weaselling, how is it now? Btw, I think the travelling bishops thing is a little fanciful. Like the Somerseatas: an invention of Edwardian antiquaries, were they not? Somerset, published in 1907 by G.W. Wade and J.H. Wade, (authors of Rambles in Somerset, Rambles in Devon etc) briefly features them. Are authenic "Somerseatas" mentioned in any document? Why are we taliing about Roman cathedrals in England anyway. This isn't waffle, it's marmelade... Wetman 01:12, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Lack of headings
i was just woundering if it would be better if the artical was split up into a few more headings / sub headings.
You refer to Strasbourg "and other german cities". Strasbourg may have been German (1870-1918 and 1940-45) but it is now firmly back in France. Münster: Several English cathedral are called "Minster" e.g. York Minster, as I understood it because they had been built by monks and were part of monasteries.
Hey guys. Does anybody have a guide/URL to the styles/rhythms of Byzantine cathedrals? I need it for my article in the Saint Andrew cathedral in the city of patras... thanks. Project2501a 20:43, 23 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Do we have a list of the "largest" cathedrals, with some appropriate measurement of "largest"? David.Monniaux 15:13, 4 Apr 2005 (UTC)
- Suprisingly not, as far as I can tell. If I can't find one, I will start one. Sylvain1972 17:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
- OK, I've started "largest" to go with "tallest" -- List of largest cathedrals in the world Sylvain1972 17:24, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
The use of patriarchal basilica in reference to the Lateran Basilica only refers to it belonging to the class of major basilicas in Rome, each traditionally assigned to a patriarch. It has nothing to do with its position in the hierarchy. It being the Roman cathedral is enough for it to be the chief Roman church, chief Italian church, chief Western church, and chief Ecumenical church for Roman Catholics. If being a patriarchal basilica had anything to do with hierarchial position, then Saint Peter's Basilica, the patriarchal basilica traditionally assigned to the Patriarch of Constantinople, would be the patriarchal church of the Byzantine Rite, which was never the case. Pmadrid 8 July 2005 13:07 (UTC)
Let's not forget where freemasonry stems from (people who knew the art of building cathedrals). 188.8.131.52 15:38, 18 June 2006 (UTC)
- This article is not about the construction of cathedrals. Its about the history and organisation.
--Amandajm 00:56, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a shame that all of the pictures in this article are of Roman Catholic Cathedrals. The Orthodox DO have them, even if it's not the official name. Can we get an example of an Orthodox Cathedral on this page? St. Basil's in Moscow is pretty striking, visually, but there are lots of other good ones. I'd put one on here, but I'm pretty new to the editing thing, and I'm not sure what to do to make sure a given picture is public domain. Ştefan 12:48, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
- There is currently a a mixture of cathedrals from mmany different countries. They are Roman Catholic, Anglican, Episcopal, Orthodox, and I don't know what else. They have been selected to show a wide range of sizes, styles, traditions etc. They have also been selected for format and "good picture quality". But I don't know if any very significant aspect has been left out that really ought to be included. This doesn't mean that every country needs to be represented, as many people can relate to different aspects of churches in other countries as well as their own. The interior of the cathedral in the US, for example, could well be in Australia or many other countries. Amandajm 05:51, 7 October 2007 (UTC)
Some additional info
"One interesting fact about the building of a cathedral, was that whenever a townsperson was about to die, a bishop or a builder would go to that person and ask him or her to donate all their belongings to the building fund of the cathedral."
The above piece of information was added, without references (like almost everything else) and was definitely in the wrong section, but could perhpas be useful. Amandajm 13:37, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Aero07 decided that these stubs were useless and deleted them! They have been sitting there in the article for quite a while as stubs. Why doesn't some nice person who knows about this stuff fill them out? Pleeease do! The put them back under the intro that says Functions
|This section requires expansion. (May 2010)|
|This section requires expansion. (May 2010)|
What are the day to day services of the cathedral? And the major festivals?
|This section requires expansion. (May 2010)|
The role of the choir, the organ, associated composers
|This section requires expansion. (May 2010)|
OK, what goes here?
Amandajm 13:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Where were there Provosts?
So the original text here said that provosts were usual "outside the British Isles", and the proposed revision says they were usual "on continential Europe." There would be no reason to worry about the change--and it would be good to make if it soothed ruffled feathers--if the terms were complements, but they aren't. There are, after all, areas which are neither part of the British Isles nor on continental Europe, and many of them have cathedrals. Important cases are cathedrals on islands (Sicily, Corsica, etc), and the Latin kingdom of Jerusalem is also relevant. Even more curious is that the article begins to speak of the term "provost" being unknown "in England." Were there large Scottish or Irish churches at the time to consult? What was their term for the senior officer? I think we should figure this out. A brief check of the Catholic Encyclopedia was not helpful, AFAICT. My concern is that the relevant question here is "where were there Provosts", not "let's pretend we know and then put in geographical terms to match." I think the editors of this article have generally really not known. Tb (talk) 14:19, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Further disastrousness. A while ago the article said "abroad" there were provosts. Obviously that had to go! One assumes it came from a British encyclopedia or some such, perhaps the old Brittanica which was the basis for many Wikipedia articles. If that's true, it means "outside England", roughly, but not in such a way as to exclude Scotland or Ireland or Wales: that is, hopelessly vaguely "generally away from here". All the more reason we should maybe try to find out the facts. Tb (talk) 14:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Confirmed. The language goes back to "abroad" from the 1911 encyclopedia which was then changed to "outside the British Isles" in a laudable attempt to be less location-centric. Tb (talk) 14:24, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Cologne Cathedral v. Cathedral of São Paulo
The reason why I have reversed this change by an unnamed editor, twice, is simply that the pics have been very carefully selected. The lower picture is a rare image of the interior of a cathedral in use, with a procession taking place. Wiki commons has very few pictures like that one. The upper picture, the exterior of São Paulo, was carefully selected from among the many hundreds of exterior views of cathedrals, as a visual complement to the chosen interior.
The view of Cologne Cathedral is spectacular on its own. But it does not complement the interior view in any way. The picture is of much larger proportion and makes the other picture look insignificant. An effective article needs to be well laid out and look good, as well as providing information. This is not an article about great architecture. It is an article about religious function, and to that end, the Cathedral of São Paulo is equally representative. Amandajm (talk) 14:45, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
- Hi, I'm really sorry for this. I changed the picture twice before and I did it again today. Then I read this post and I have to say that I agree with your reasons. I tried to change back the image and the text, but I can't remember exactly what it said, therefore it's not the same you wrote. I thought that some brazilian guy was obsessed with the new cathedral and was trying to put it on the top image of the article. On my view, Cologne Cathedral is a more representative cathedral on an historical context. Anyway, your aesthetical point of view completely justifies having Catedral da Se on top of the procession. I send you my greetings and apologies. MinosMx (talk) 17:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
An editor recently up and changed a bunch of the gallery images, radically reducing the geographic spread of the previous set, and mistakenly including St. Peter's Basilica (not a cathedral at all). I've reverted the changes, because there seems to be nothing wrong with the other set, and the changes were not explained at all. Tb (talk) 21:18, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
- As promised, this was the gallery that I had in mind.
In addition to this I would love to remove some images in the article itself and replace some images.
- Thanks for this nice work. These are nearly all bulk external shots; one (Chartres statues) is an exterior detail. The current article has some more variety in the gallery: some stained glass, an interior, a bell. I'd like it if we can keep those images. Also, the existing gallery has some smaller cathedrals, which is nice to show the diversity of the subject (thinking of the Dubuque one and Rejkjavik examples, say). Also, the text here is too wordy for a gallery, which in my opinion should just have the title of what's there and the location, and not the descriptions. The Brasilia example is a wonderful addition, and an exciting building to boot! Tb (talk) 20:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
- The images in the text
- They have been chosen to meet a couple of criteria.
- Layout.. Wiith the exception of the bishops chair from Sydney (the only such pic I had available) they all meet the layout criteria (MY criteria, since I chose them) of being landscape format. My reasoning was that this allows for a large number of images which can all be sized the same, and all look reasonably good together..
- Content... The lead pics are not chosen as the greatest works of architecture. They are more like the sort of catherdals that millions of people attend.. The one in the US is a rare shot of a ceremony taking place.. The two pics were chosen specifically to go together.
- All the other pics in the text have been chose to illustrate the text itself.. I have no doubt that some can be improved upon, but I wanted a broad look at cathedrals, and various aspects of them, historical, present day, and how they relate to their town. Architectural grandeur was the least of the issues, because it is dealt with elsewhere, in a number of different articles.
- Some of the pictures are rarer than you would think, eg, a choir performing, a congregation (leaving after the service, in this case) etc.
- I also chose pics that were where possible, the most artistic shot available.
- Gallery- I chose the pics initially, and included things like the stainedglass, the bell etc, to try and give a general view of things that are common to many cathedrals. I also wanted to include Catholic, Anglican, Protestant and different Orthodox cathedrals, as well as cathedrals from Europe, Africa, India, other parts of Asia, the Americas and Australasia. Many people expanded the gallery with their favourites.
- I think perhaps the gallery could be reorganised, and that the criteria could be discussed here.
I have just looked again at the new gallery, and I think that there is good info and the two should be combined.
- But I don't like the historic image of Milan, included with the recent images. St Marks is not a cathedral. There is too much of Italy. Let's think about this some more!
My plan for the pictures in the article itself was to improve some images as I already have done. With improving I mean replacing a image of the same cathedral with a better one. I was not intending on removing or changing the images of the choir singing for example. There are however to many pictures in the article itself. So I would suggest removing the images of the same structuren, that would be in the new gallery. I will replace the Basilica di San Marco, but I thought it was a basilica and a cathedral. The article about the church also says so. Massimo Catarinella (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- Why are there to many cathedrals from Italy in the new gallery? The country with the highest density of cathedrals is probably Italy. It is also home to a large number of famous and beautiful cathedrals. It only seems fare, that Italy receives three images in the new gallery. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Massimo Catarinella (talk • contribs) 11:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
- St Mark's is definitely not a cathedral. The cathedral of Venice is Torcello Cathedral. St Peter's is also not a cathedral. Many of the finest and most famous churches of Italy are basilicas but not cathedrals. There is an historical reason why Italy has a large number of cathedrals- it is because the towns fought each other, and would not accept the rule of a bishop from a neighbouring town. In England, by comparison, there were only about 18 cathedrals (there are more now). The result of the high density of cathedrals in Italy is that many of the cathedrals are merely large churches- they not larger or more architecturally significant than the other churches around them. In Padua, for example, it is the church of St Anthony that is the most significant church, not the cathedral. The exceptions of course (in Northern Italy) are Florence, Siena, Milan, Orvieto and Pisa.
- I think that it is better to give a world view of Christianity, than have 3 pics from one country, when there will probably be only 20 images. Remember that this is not about architecture.
- For a major rearrangement to look good, then you have to select and arrange images exactly as if you were putting paintings on a gallery wall. It is very easy to take good images and arrange them badly.
- When you write captions, remember that there is only a small space beneath the gallery. The caption needs to state the whereabouts, but does not need to be in a sentence. In other words, don't write a sentence that says "The Notre Dame Cathedral of Paris is one of the cathedrals in Paris France". It is quite enough to say "Notre Dame Cathedral, Paris, France".
Ok, now I understand more what you want this gallery to be like. As for the Basilica di San Marco, my mistake. Everything else you said about Italy, I was well aware of, but thanks anyway. Do you have further suggestions for the new gallery? What picture would you like to keep from the old gallery? The new arrangement of the gallery? Massimo Catarinella (talk)
Another picture observation
I will make a talk page entry rather than edit it myself, in case I stir a hornet's nest.
There seems to be one or two too many photographs of English buildings to be truly neutral in images as well as text. Italy could perhaps lose one as well... The beneficiary I would suggest should be France, which doesn't have a single image. Antienne (talk) 03:47, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
- Yes. I agree. The reason why there are so many pics of English cathedrals is simply that someone wrote a longish section which is bbased specifically on the history and organisation of English Cathedrals. I selected the pics to illustrate the text.
- There was previously a gallery which showed cathedrals from all around the world,, and which was added to frequently. Attilios swept by and took it with him. I'll see what I can do. Amandajm (talk) 04:26, 8 March 2009 (UTC)
Image copyright problem with Image:Palayamkottai.jpg
The image Image:Palayamkottai.jpg is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check
- That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
- That this article is linked to from the image description page.
English detail removed
I removed the section about history of English cathedrals, as it looked out of scope in an article dealing with the argumetn in general. There's the good separate entry for it. Ciao and good work. --'''Attilios''' (talk) 09:07, 5 September 2009 (UTC)
I note the interesting statement that monastic cathedrals were common in medieval France and Germany. But this is not curretnly referenced, and so is difficult to reconcile with statements I have in recent works that such monastic chapters were rare outside England. Would it be possible to provide the specific references? TomHennell (talk) 01:53, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
- No reply, so far as I can tell this para was lifted wholesale from the on-lin 1911 Britannica (a hazardous activity at the best of times). I have removed it TomHennell (talk) 00:37, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
- When you leave a question here, you need to give more than a day to get a response. People often have lives outside Wikiepedia and don't check every article that they watch every day.
- You are probably right about it coming from 1911 Britannica. However, if you are going to remove it, you need to reference the new material. Amandajm (talk) 11:37, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
Durham Cathedral is a spectacular Cathedral near where I live - I would advise adding some pictures of Durham Cathedral. www.durhamcathedral.co.uk contains some images —Preceding unsigned comment added by Benjamint05 (talk • contribs) 15:23, 30 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thank you for your suggestion, Bejamin. Durham is indeed a most spectacular and wonderful cathedral. However, inclusion in 'this article has nothing to do with architectural quality but purely function. The pics have been chosen to illustrate the history, the types of foundation, the way cathedrals work and their purposes in the modern world. This is why, for example, the picture chosen of Pisa Cathedral is the one with the touristy horse and buggy outside it. It is specifically illustrating the fact that many cathedrals are important tourism venues. The first pic has been chosen to show that the building of cathedrals is not a thing of the past.
- As for Durham, You'll find it heading up the page Architecture of the medieval cathedrals of England and represented in Romanesque architecture. Amandajm (talk) 05:25, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
The Cathedral Building
I made some stylistic edits a while ago. They were reverted in part, and rightly so, because I misunderstood and accordingly changed the meaning of the section. But if it's really supposed to mean what it says, I think the section could use some clarification, because it seems a bit contradictory. The relevant paragraphs are:
Cathedral buildings are frequently the grandest of churches in the diocese (and country), especially those dating from Medieval and Renaissance times. The ancient cathedrals of England, of Northern France, Belgium, Spain, Germany and Sicily, as well as many other individual cathedrals from Italy and other parts of Europe are among the largest and finest buildings of the Medieval period. Many are renowned for their architecture or their decorative features such as sculpture, stained glass and frescos.
While in some countries – particularly England where medieval cathedrals are comparatively few in number – the cathedral buildings tend to be large, size and grandeur have rarely been essential requirements. Early Celtic and Saxon cathedrals tended to be of diminutive size, as is the Byzantine so-called Little Metropole Cathedral of Athens. In Italy, with a few notable exceptions such as Florence Cathedral and Milan Cathedral, cathedrals are numerous and are often similar in form and size to monastic or large parish churches. In modern times, where functionality is the foremost consideration, a cathedral church may be a modest structure.
The reason I changed "While in some" to "In other" in the second paragraph was that I felt like the statement that "size and grandeur have rarely been essential requirements" is at odds with all the statements in the first paragraph about how cathedrals are usually the biggest building in town, in the diocese, etc. So, I assumed the article was discussing different countries in the second paragraph than the first paragraph. (Specifically, I assumed that the article was saying that English churches are usually smaller and more drab than cathedrals in the other European countries mentioned because there weren't very many churches built in the Medieval period in England compared to other European countries.) Apparently I was incorrect. But I still think that whatever distinction actually is being made between these two paragraphs should be made more clear, because I really left feeling confused. (For example, maybe the article is trying to say that the Medieval period is an exception to the more general rule that cathedrals are small and not-grand, or something, but this should be stated.) I hope this is helpful. AgnosticAphid talk 05:11, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
- I'll see what I can do.
- The key words here are "essential requirements".
- The point about the English Cathedrals is exactly the opposite to the impression that you got. Because there were so few cathedrals by comparison with France and Italy, they were nearly always very large and in some cases could hold the entire population of their town and surrounding villages. Ely and Wells cathedrals are enormous buildings is villages rather than towns. The only small "ancient" cathedrals in England are the ones that have, for one reason or another, lost a substantial part of their building.
- On the other hand, places which were not politically unified in the medieval period had lots and lots of Cathedrals. In Italy, there is a cathedral in almost every town and very few of them are any grander than the other large churches in the same town. In fact, if the town had a famous saint (Anhony of Padua for example) then the saint's titular church is much grander than the local cathedral which is the administrative centre, but not the main centre of pilgrimage.
- I'll try to make it clearer. Amandajm (talk) 06:10, 30 June 2011 (UTC)
Budolfi Church in Aalborg
I have deleted the sentence: "Some, like Budolfi Church which functions as the Lutheran cathedral of Aalborg in Denmark, are simply designated "church". Others, like Lübeck Cathedral, retain their ancient designation." It is true that the name of Aalborg Cathedral is Budolfi Church, but it is also very common to call it Aalborg Cathedral (especially outside Aalborg). So it is not correct to say that it is "simply designated 'church'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Edlef (talk • contribs) 10:47, 21 March 2012 (UTC)
I have just deleted the gallery. The addition of a gallery to that article is much more trouble than it is worth, because it means that every single person in the world wants to add their own picture of their favourite cathedral. The place for that is in Wikimedia Commons. If you look towards the bottom of the page, you will see a link to Cathedrals that shows thousands of pictures.
Every picture that is included in the text of the article has been selected to illustrate a point of the text. That is why the pics are not simply a gallery of the most grand and beautiful buildings. In the context of this article, all cathedrals are equally relevant. You will notice that every picture does not simply state the name and location. All the captions link to the text. This is why, out of all the possible pictures of Pisa Cathedral, a picture was chosen that indicated that it is a "tourist venue". Likewise the picture of Santiago de Compostela is seen from afar, as a pilgrimage destination.
- Definition. The article is about "Cathedral" as an ecclesiastical designation. It does explain that the word "cathedral" is sometimes used by people who don't grasp the ecclesiastical meaning, to mean "big church". No-one who is actually involved in the organistation or structure of an "episcopalian" church (that means a church that has bishops and cathedrals) would ever use the word "cathedral" wrongly. But people who are not closely involved in the church, argue that the dictionary defintion has been stretched to include "a very large church". This is a bit like calling every large car a Cadillac, or every single vacuum cleaner a "Hoover".
- Where this point is taking me is to the fact that you included in the gallery a picture of St Peter's Basilica. It isn't a "cathedral".
- Some cathedrals do hold the title of "basilica". St Mary's Cathedral in Sydney (illustrated in the text for its typically cruciform plan) is the Cathedral Basilica of St Mary, Help of Christians. But many cathedrals are not basilicas, and many basilicas are not cathedrals. There is an article at Architecture of cathedrals and great churches.
The idea is simple, I just want to put the greatest Cathedral of the world List_of_largest_church_buildings_in_the_world, do not suppose I put my favotive ones. --184.108.40.206 (talk) 02:05, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- Adding pictures to that list would be a good idea. Try to chose pics that match each other on formatting. Horizontal pics are best when used in lists. I transferred your pic of the Basilica in Zaragazo to the Introduction of the article Architecture of cathedrals and great churches.
- Amandajm (talk) 03:00, 1 November 2012 (UTC)
- I think I misunderstood you. Don't add pictures here. I have given you the reasons why not. Add the pictures TO the List of largest churches. Not from the list of largest churches . They do not belong here. As I have already explained, being great or large is not important to this article. The important matter in function.
- Amandajm (talk) 09:16, 2 November 2012 (UTC)
Parish churches vs. cathedrals peculiar
Speaking of the various categories of cathedrals, I understand that some are parish church cathedrals (cathedrals that are also parish churches) and others are cathedrals peculiar (cathedrals that are NOT also parish churches). Does anyone want to incorporate this? J S Ayer (talk) 23:17, 7 November 2013 (UTC)