Talk:Catholicism
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[edit] Facts
You need to put some numbers in here. how many catholics are in the world? when was it started? do the adherents live in an paticular region of the world? if so is it rural/suburban/urban? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Alexw6 (talk • contribs) 21:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Further reading
Some of the books listed for further reading seem odd choices. For example, the Patrick Madrid and Karl Keating books are good, but are primarily about Protestant-Catholic relations: about doctrinal controversies, 20th-century Protestant proselytism, and individual conversions. I think it's probably better to recommend books that look at the big picture of Catholicism on its own, in a big-picture way, rather than in its relation to American Protestantism. Chonak (talk) 00:01, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Divergent ideas?
The third category listed seems to be unneeded since according to what is written, those in this category have no "institutional descent" and do not call themselves catholic. Does this seem unnecessary to anyone else. There is also no source for this. Is this part of something that was discussed earlier that I did not see?MephYazata (talk) 17:50, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
[edit] The "See also" section
I think that the "See also" section is being turned practically into a couple of portals, and I see this as inappropriate. However, I will not myself intervene. Lima (talk) 16:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah, I agree as well. I'm not sure exactly the right approach. Tb (talk) 06:27, 4 May 2009 (UTC)
- I also agree. Perhaps something along the lines of what was done for the United States article which has an separate page, Index of United States–related articles. Barkeep Chat | $ 12:52, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- Any objection if I remove the Roman Catholic Church part of the section, since those links belong rather in the specific article on the Roman Catholic Church? Lima (talk) 13:21, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think something like the United States case is needed; we have portals and such already. I think that just some pruning would be good. More specific: I think that Christianity, Divine Liturgy, Ecumenism, One Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, Religious Orders should be there; and links to specific "branches" (sorry, sounding Anglican there), such as Roman Catholic Church, Anglican Communion, Eastern Orthodox Church, Oriental Orthodox Church, Assyrian Church of the East, Old Catholic Churches and then a few carefully selected movements, perhaps Anglo-Catholicism, Traditionalist Catholic, and perhaps Neo-Lutheranism. Tb (talk) 18:39, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
- Since nobody has objected, I am going ahead with removing the RCC part of the section. I do not think that this is sufficient. But I do hope that it may get the editor who is creating the WP:Linkfarm to discuss the matter here. Lima (talk) 16:11, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- How one can drop something as essential as "Vicar of Christ" and "Marian dogma" in "See Also" yet retain something as insignificant as, say, "Anglo-Catholic" (a very numerically small group within Anglicanism)? And to leave out the visual components of Catholicism (cathedrals, shrines, etc), which give expression to belief, impoverishes the richness of Catholicism! Prattlement (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:00, 7 May 2009 (UTC).
- So, remove yet more? I await other comments. Lima (talk) 14:08, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- The "see also" section is not for the purpose of linking to all articles that are related to Catholicism, not even all important ones. It's for linking to relevant related articles which are not otherwise linked within the article, of the highest importance. Note that Anglo-Catholicism has been removed, since it's already linked within the article. What remains now are mostly articles which are of so low importance, they are not even linked in the article, and they should probably be removed, but I was going to wait to do that as a second-round thing later. Tb (talk) 14:12, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- As Prattlement has showed us, the number of links that could be added to this section can grow exponentially. If Prattlement and others should feel one link "deserves" to be listed over the other because it's, for instance, "more significant," I would favor removing both such links then get into a debate over which to include. Every link has a case to be made for its significance over the other. I feel a just a very few core topics should be listed in the 'See also' section (I couldn't say which). Barkeep Chat | $ 15:06, 7 May 2009 (UTC)
- How one can drop something as essential as "Vicar of Christ" and "Marian dogma" in "See Also" yet retain something as insignificant as, say, "Anglo-Catholic" (a very numerically small group within Anglicanism)? And to leave out the visual components of Catholicism (cathedrals, shrines, etc), which give expression to belief, impoverishes the richness of Catholicism! Prattlement (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 14:00, 7 May 2009 (UTC).
- Since nobody has objected, I am going ahead with removing the RCC part of the section. I do not think that this is sufficient. But I do hope that it may get the editor who is creating the WP:Linkfarm to discuss the matter here. Lima (talk) 16:11, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
- I also agree. Perhaps something along the lines of what was done for the United States article which has an separate page, Index of United States–related articles. Barkeep Chat | $ 12:52, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] By-words for Catholicism
I noticed that contemporary secular writers will sometimes use by-words when refering to Catholicism. One of these terms is clericalism, hence the expression anticlericalism, which is very close to anti-Catholicism. Other by-words such as this include Sacerdotalism, Obscurantism, Reactionism, Dogmatism, Sacramentalism, Medievalism, Fascism, Romanism, Natalism, Patriarchy, Anglo-Catholicism and Cultural Christianity. ADM (talk) 04:06, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what your point is. Some of these such as Sacerdotalism and Sacramentalism are probably apt descriptions of the Roman Catholic Church although they can be applied in a positive or a negative way. Some such as Natalism are characteristics which, while accurate descriptors of the church, overemphasize one doctrine over the others. Others such as Reactionism and Dogmatism describe aspects of the church which may dominate from time to time but are not necessarily descriptors of the whole church over its entire history. Others such as Clerical fascism represent aberrations and should not be used to malign the Church as a whole. Still others such as Romanism, Obscurantism and Medievalism are just out-and-out hostile attacks with relatively little validity. All of this could be useful in the article on Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church. However, with the exception of Anglo-Catholicism, I doubt that discussion of these belong here in this article. --Richard (talk) 04:37, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] The Methodists
also consider themselves part of (the more hardcore ones consider themselves to be) "the holy catholic church," claiming direct descent from the original Christians through their Anglican roots. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.33.158.121 (talk) 22:55, 23 July 2009 (UTC)
[edit] intellectual dishonesty
The first paragraph of this article is intellectually dishonest, never mind poorly thought out. It is hard, for example, to sustain the points in the third and fourth sentences on the basis of the footnotes to which the reader is referred. Indeed, the sources, to which we are directed, do not support with proof or evidence what is declared in the above mentioned sentences.
For example, in the third sentence, Wikipedia editor states: "More broadly, it [Catholicism] may refer to many churches, including the Roman Cathlic Church and others not in communion with it, that claim continuity with the Catholic Church before separation into Greek or Eastern and Latin or Western." Then as his/her source for this statement, the author cites a single paragraph on "Anglo-Catholicism" from Richard Mc Brien's Encyclopedia of Catholicism (p.52), which states: "Anglo-Catholicism, the name given since the Oxford movement in the nineteenth century to the 'high church' party within the Anglican communion. Anglo-Catholics emphasize the historic continuity with its medieval predecessor...." Mc Brien's paragraph, however, never mentions the Schism between the Western and Eastern churches. Furthermore, the "historic continuity" to which Mc Brien was referring was with Anglo-Catholicism's "medieval predecessor," the Western/Latin Church of the 12th, 13th, 14th centuries, not the church before 1000. The wiki editor of that sentence, however, gives the article a different spin, intellectually dishonest. That is, the source cited does not back up what is stated in the paragraph, sentence 3.
Then the wiki editor states the following (in the fourth sentence): "Churches that make this claim of continuity [as if they did!] include the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental churches, the Assyrian Church of the East [really an Oriental church], the Old Catholic churches, and the churches of the Anglican Communion." To back up the content of this sentence, the Wiki editor creatively cites another Roman Catholic scholar, Jeffery Gros, who ironically, in his book, Introduction to Ecumenism, states something completely different and much more nuanced. In regard to claims of continuity, Gros states the following on page 155: "The Eastern Orthodox churches consider the West to have broken away from the "common Tradition." Later, in the same paragraph, he calls it "the Apostolic heritage." However, there in no mention of the "Catholic Church" before 1000 as an ecclesial institution.
Finally, none of the Roman Catholic scholars he/she uses in this paragraph state or even allude to the idea that the Roman Catholic church (or any one of its popes) claims continuity with itself (or with an earlier pope, say, before the 10th century) anymore than an American president would. It is a given, even in regard to those presidents born under a foreign power, the British government before the nation declared its independence in 1776. (I believe Van Buren was the first native born president, born after the American Revolution when the United States was already a free nation, free of the king. But even he never saw a discontinuity between himself and Madison or Adams, both born before 1776.) Anyway, as Gros notes, "the Catholic Church" and the abovementioned churches all claim continuity with the "Apostolic heritage" and with the "common Tradition," not with the Catholic Church before 1000.
If the editors wish to state the contrary, they should not cite Catholic sources (or any scholarly sources, for that matter) that do not support their statements or opinions. They shoudl find other sources to back up thier statements. Prattlement (talk) 18:13, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
- It's not clear how removing the references addresses these concerns, so I've restored them. Tom Harrison Talk 18:59, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
- One shouldn't attribute things to scholars (in this case, Catholic scholars; but it could be Muslim or Jewish or Lutheran scholars) that they never said. In any number of ways, they (the cited sources) are in the wrong place.
Well, at least you are hearing another side (although contradictory evidence seldom puzzles the indifferent mind, considering the many people who go along with indifference today). Prattlement (talk) 20:02, 8 August 2009 (UTC)
Suggest you read Lumen Gentium. Prattlement (talk) 01:30, 10 August 2009 (UTC) If the "Church of Christ" subsists in the "Catholic Church" (i.e., Roman Catholic Church), no Catholic Scholar (such as those cited in the first paragraph) would ever state that the Roman Catholic Church "claims continuity with the Catholic Church before the separation," not if the Church of Christ subsists in their church (and has for all time), according to this document. Interestingly too, the "Catholic Church" and the "Roman Catholic Church" are used synonymously by these writers in their work.Prattlement (talk) 01:43, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Wiki authors need Anglican scholars to back up the first paragraph! Good luck!Prattlement (talk) 01:43, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I quote the Jeffery Gros paragraphs in full: " In the present day, words 'schismatic' and 'heretic' are seldom used by Western Christians, but the differences of perception between West and East are no less real and profound. The Catholic Church recognizes the sacramental character of these 'sister churches' and insists that any study of the nature of the Church take full account of developments of both East and West. Pope John Paul continually reminds Catholics that the Church must learn to breath again 'with both lungs,' and that the first thousand years of full communion is a common resource for reform and renewal. For the Roman Catholic Church this means taking account of the Eastern synodical tratition, the early relationships among the five patriarchates, and the collegial relationships among the autocephalous Orthodox churches when renewing its own collegial, synodical, papal, and episcopal conference life to better serve the unity of churches.
The Eastern Orthodox churches consider the West to have broken away form the common Tradition. This view has factual support in the events of 1054 and 1204. Likewise, such developments as the addition of the 'filioque,' papal infallibility, the Marian dogmas in Catholicism, and the ordination of women in Protestantism are seen as unilateral develpments moving away from the Apostolic heritage. Sacramental theology has also developed under different patristic emphases, leaving Orthodox less easily able to recognize the sacraments of the Catholic Church than Catholics are able to do in regard the sacraments of the Orthodox Churches." p 155
No mention here of the Catholic Church (to quote Gros) claiming continuity with the Catholic Church before the schism or separation of 1054!Prattlement (talk) 16:20, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
Finally (at least in this post), may I suggest you find Anglicans authors (instead of dishonestly misusing/misquoting Roman Catholic sources in citations) who might be able to explore and back up the type of catholic ecclesiology which the Anglican Communion has lived for the past 4 hundred years. You might want to start with Tom Wright, Anglican bishop of Durham. Prattlement (talk) 17:51, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
I deleted the ref (attached to the second sentence of the second paragraph) because it cannot be found, validated in Thomas Rausch's book, CATHOLICISM IN THE THIRD MILLENNIUM, the source originally used to validate the statement. The wiki editor needs to find another source to back up the statement. Throughout his book, Rausch also refers to the Roman Catholic Church as the "Catholic Church," because "that Church continues to refer to itself simply as the 'Catholic Church' in its official documents." LIkewise, he refers to the "Catholic Church" and the "Eastern Rite Catholic Churches," not the "Roman Catholic Church, Western and Eastern," etc. Wiki editors need to find another source (for this concept) supported by scholarship.--Prattlement (talk) 20:11, 9 September 2009 (UTC)
