Talk:Celibacy

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Redirect[edit]

The article homosexual celibacy redirects to this page, but this page lacks any mention of celibacy due to reasons involving sexual or gender identity, nor anything of that nature. While it probably can fall into reasons for celibacy, it could potentially be an additional section; I have therefore added an request for expansion. (And please don't suggest that it should go into the homosexuality article instead - that thing is huge already!) - Heartofgoldfish 15:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Not my area, but I'll consider it.--T. Anthony 15:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Catholic priests[edit]

Italic textI'd like to add something about Catholic priests, in terms of both celibacy and chastity. In particular, let's address the issue of homosexual priests. Since Catholicism does not deem homosexality itself sinful, a homosexual ought to be able to take the same vow of chastity (or celibacy?) as any other priest. Is this correct? Ed Poor

Yes -Ben

Not exactly. The recent Vatican document argues that celibacy in the sense of priestly celibacy is not a gift to someone who is homosexual and uninterested in marriage.

By the way, the old articles on celibacy and chastity were identical with the last paragraph of the Holy Orders article.


This looks like as good a place as any to put this:

The Catholic and Orthodox churches holds themselves to Canon 6 of the Council of Trullo in 692, which reads as follows:

"Since it is declared in the apostolic canons that of those who are advanced to the clergy unmarried, only lectors and cantors are able to marry; we also, maintaining this, determine that henceforth it is in nowise lawful for any subdeacon, deacon or presbyter after his ordination to contract matrimony but if he shall have dared to do so, let him be deposed. And if any of those who enter the clergy, wishes to be joined to a wife in lawful marriage before he is ordained subdeacon, deacon, or presbyter, let it be done." -Ben Brumfield

Two points: 1. it's the Council IN Trullo rather than OF. The Trullo was a part of the imperial palace at Constantinople, so it is like referring to the Capitol in our nation's Capital, or like the legislative affairs column in a state-capital newspaper being called "Under the Dome." Indeed, I think 'Trullo' may be a version of 'vault' or 'dome'. 2. The Latin Church did not accept the disciplinary canons of the Council in Trullo. Western rules on celibacy do not base themselves on that council (which also prohibited representations of Christ as a Lamb [Lamb of God] - one of the first signs of the coming Iconoclastic controversy). The rules for the non-Latin rites of the Catholic Church are actually separate (with their own ocde of canon law). MichaelTinkler

Original meaning[edit]

"The old meaning of this term was "to have sexual intercourse only with one's wife".

Anybody got a source on the "the original meaning of celibacy" quote? The author seems to be describing what's sometimes referred to as "continence". -Ben Brumfield

Exactly. Leaving aside the fact that celibacy is a noun and "to have sexual intercourse only with one's wife" is a verb, I've checked OED and there's no evidence for any such meaning. The original sense was "unmarried" and the current one is "not having sex". Deleted that sentence. Flapdragon 6 July 2005 22:30 (UTC)

"To have sexual intercourse only with one's wife" is an infinitive phrase, which serves perfecly well as a noun phrase, as in "To have sexual intercourse only with one's wife is a worse fate than reading Wikipedia." The original sense was "unmarried", and the current sense is "unmarried"; the sense "not having sex" is used out of ignorance by people unfamiliar both with the word "celibacy" and the term "sexually abstinent". The manner in which this article vacillates between these senses without any apparent clue that two senses even exist, or that one of them is colloquial and very recent, is clear warning that this article, frankly, sucks. 71.126.140.52 (talk) 06:10, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a response to Ed poor's post.

I believe that if you take a vow of chastisy you should keep it. It doesn't matter if you are homosexual or heterosexual. There have been a lot of things in the news about Priests sleeping with boys because "It is not against the doctrine" This kinda makes me mad. (Gothsrus (talk) 16:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC))

List of famous celibates?[edit]

I wonder if this article could benefit from a "list of famous celibate people", like the "list of famous..." in other articles such as the one about homosexuality. A rather famous celibate is Paul Erdös, and Friedrich Nietzsche was also one by some accounts.

  • Friedrich Nietzsche died of Syphilis, now: where could he have contracted that as a celibatarian? Kraxler 16:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea.

I will add a list of notable celibates to the article. One I can think of is Anne Widdecombe. Walton monarchist89 17:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I could have sworn I saw something on TV that said Kyle Brady was celibate, but considering his article says he is married and has a son, that doesn't appear to be correct. Recury 16:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Thank you for resonding for my call to assistance, AdelaMae and Hideouslywrinkled. Unfortunately, there were some mistakes. The Reformers did not give alternative interpretations of verses cited in favor of celibacy. hey cited verses they thought were against it, and their reasoning belongs in the Humor section (read the verses they cited). If it was people outside the Church thinking married priesthood was a solution, it would not even be mentioned (Catholics do not tell Muslims what colors they should paint their mosques to attract converts). Unfortunately, this opinion is held by many high-rank officials in the Church (but note: the insincere ones). And, as I said previously, "The sectors of the Church where vocations are the highest are those where the Church's teachings are followed, and the sectors where these teachings are not followed have the lowest." The data DOES exist, but I need to find it.JBogdan 15:44, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Main reason for celibacy?[edit]

Am I missing a vital piece of context for the "Reasons for celibacy" section of this article? It seems to me that the most obvious reason for celibacy, and one I would like to add to the list, is:

  • An inability to obtain a willing sexual partner, due to social awkwardness or anxiety, physical or mental handicap, or lack of physical attractiveness and/or financial resources.

Blackworm 01:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Consider it done. Chris Henniker 16:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Original research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.228.106 (talk) 12:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like common sense. If you can't get something, you can't have it.--MartinUK (talk) 18:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Merge this with 'clerical celibacy'?[edit]

I think this page should be merged with the entry about 'clerical celibacy'. While the content is partly the same, the entry for 'clerical celibacy' is more detailed, better structured and less biased. I stumbled upon the 'celibacy' entry when I wanted to find out something about the history of celibacy in the catholic church, but all I found was a biased argument why celibacy is a good thing and why all who say otherwise are 'insincere', 'uninformed' or 'humourous' (luckily, the latter two terms have been edited out). Even the external links don't provide information, but only propaganda for clerical celibacy. As you see, I think the 'clerical celibacy' entry is far superiour and this one should link to the other.

I agree. An article on "celibacy" that doesn't include clerics is fairly meaningless. Why would anyone care? Merge. A link to "clerical celibacy" is okay in the short run, but merge and delete this article long term. -student- 11/5/06

Other traditions following celibacy[edit]

I have added some reference to celebacy being practiced in both Hindu and Buddhist traditions. Certainly it is not only practiced within the Christian world - maybe people could expand these areas in order to make the article more 'global' in it's focus. How is it seen in different countries and cultures around the world? 82.163.63.228 15:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposed infobox for individual birth control method articles[edit]

Let's all work on reaching a consensus for a new infobox to be placed on each individual birth control method's article. I've created one to start with on the Wikipedia Proposed Infoboxes page, so go check it out and get involved in the process. MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 12:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Why Musical Linguist is downgrading the Wikipedia by deleting contributions?[edit]

I recently added a section about History of Celibacy. My additions showed when and who started the tradition of celibacy in Catholic Church.

Why Musical Linguist deleted them?

In my opinion he is downgrading Wikipedia by selectively editing chosen articles to enforce his agenda. The discussion about his other contribution clearly show that.

Please, let the moderator show his clear view and ban Musical Linguist from constant misediting wikipedia pages.

Thank you. User:83.19.104.34

Why did she do it? - Because your edits were downgrading WP by adding false information.

  • Clerics (or laypeople) were never allowed by canon law to have concubines. Concubines are "unlawful" by definition.
  • Clerics were allowed to keep wives married before their ordination - in the Latin Rite up to the 11th century - in the Eastern Rites until today.
  • Clerics were never allowed to marry, only allowed to retain their wives, albeit under certain restrictions.
  • The ordinance of Pelagius I, if he issued such a thing, has nothing to do with marriages. It merely protects Church property and reiterates something that should be obvious to any moral person, Christian or not.
  • There is no doubt that many clerics had, in spite of canon law and morality, concubines and hence there are also reiterations of the ban, e.g. by Pope Benedict VIII.
  • The property question certainly has a part in the 11th century implementation of general celibacy, but you are overdoing it. Spiritual reasons were much more prevalent, as many believers demanded to have celibate priests.

Good day, Str1977 (smile back) 09:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Religious/clerical celibacy[edit]

I would suggest the whole section on religious celibacy is too focused on the Catholic church. Of course it is a major topic of debate and interest within that Church, but surely the subject of the Catholic view of celibacy should be a subset (albeit a substantial one) of a general heading on celibacy due to religious belief, since practitioners of other variants of Christendom (and of other faiths) may also choose celibacy because of their beliefs. 82.153.129.223 23:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

There's a seperate article on clerical celibacy that I think it would be better for this article to refer users to who are interested in that aspect of celibacy. The whole article needs a re0write and I've started to do a bit of a literature search (this not being my field, it takes days at the library which are few and far between :-). From what I've seen so far, we should have 4 sections on the "whys": religious belief and practice, physical/biological causes; social reasons (including involuntary celibacy); and cultural forces. There has been a request to cover homosexual celibacy (and the article homosexual celibacy points to this article), but from my search so far, homosexual celibacy doesn't seem to be rooted in anything different from hetrosexual celibacy. So I was thinking of incorporating homosexual perspectives throughout the article rather than having a seperate section. --SiobhanHansa 00:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The article is not that large. How much of it do you want to devote to homosexual celibacy? Is it really that important of a subset? (The figures I've seen indicate it might be overrepresented, but it'd still only be around 15%)--T. Anthony 04:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't thinking it would be a huge bit, more that it would make it clear that (for the most part) reasons for celibacy, and approaches for handling it, were not related to sexual orientation. I'm still reading up on this, so I'm not clear how I'd do it. Feel free to edit yourself :-) --SiobhanHansa 13:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Lopsided views[edit]

This article is very lopsided; more than half of it touches on the Christian aspect of celibacy. The practical and secular forms of celibacy (such as the involuntary celibacy experienced by professed nerds) are mentioned in the opening, but largely ignored by the rest of the article. Even the section which deals with reasons for celibacy makes a highly biased statement on celibacy by quoting the Apostle Paul verbatim at the end. I'm not sure how we could rebalance the article, because celibacy is usually associated with religion in the first place, but a good start might be to focus more on celibacy in non-Christian religions and the secular celibate. Johnleemk | Talk 17:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"Nerdish celibacy" is not historically significant or studied enough to matter that much. Although there has been activists of a secular nature who decided to be celibate in order to devote more time to their respective movements. That was more true in the nineteenth century, and earlier, as sex then was more likely to lead to children. I believe several of the early feminists were celibate. And it might be too focused on Christians specifically Catholics. There have been Protestant celibates and among the Religious Society of Friends I think "spinster celibates" were not too unusual. I remember reading something on a Quaker site about them considering celibacy to be one among many sexual options a person may choose. There could maybe be a bit more on people on the autistic spectrum, as well as other conditions, as there are conditions/disabilities that are disproportionately celibate. I believe some autists find sex unpleasant or even disorienting because of neurological factors. Also I think a bit more on celibacy in Dharmic religions could be helpful.--T. Anthony 09:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the Shakers (distinct from the Quakers) should also be mentioned. They have practically died out as a sect because of celibacy and a failure to win converts. Ranthlee 23:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup[edit]

This article needs a lot of cleanup. I made a start, but a lot more needs to be done. Here's what I see:

  • References: Still need 'em, especially in the light of creeping OR and POV. Perhaps some of the "External links" could be converted to references.
  • Roman Catholic clerical celibacy: A lot of this text should be removed, or moved to other articles. (Clerical celibacy, Clerical celibacy (Catholic Church), Roman Catholic sex abuse cases, etc.)
  • Secular celibacy: A lot more information about secular aspects of celibacy would help. Are there organizations or notable manifestos promoting secular celibacy? What about the historical view of the risks of celibacy (e.g green sickness)?

--Shunpiker 17:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

New Page from this one or references for this page?[edit]

Just an idea, but can the medical opinions from this site be made into a new page for "Health Benefits of Celibacy"? www.semenloss.com There are many citations from doctors. Unfornuately some of the sources are only from the work of Dr. Bernard. But many of the sources are from the original author's directly. As108 02:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Picture suggestion[edit]

This article lacks pictures. How about someone introducing a picture of a couple not engaging in sexual behavior before marriage. Perhaps a shot of people walking down a street, eating some ice-cream or having sexual intercourse. Oops - not that one :-) - Bennyboyz3000 07:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Islam section[edit]

I have added the Islam section, with myself being a muslim and already knowing alot about celibacy in Islam.

I have researched alot about it before putting the info in, and have tried to make it as neutral as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.25.71 (talk) 18:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Why were two celibate people removed?[edit]

I added two very well known celibates, Jessica Simpson (took a vow of celibacy at 12 and remain a virgin until her marriage to Nick Lashey) and Britney Spears (famous for her celibacy as a teen) and they were removed without reason. Apparently these were not celibates as they were in their young 20s. I don't believe to be any sort of valid reason for a vow of celibacy to be valid, especially considering Jessica and Britney took a "vow of Celibacy" which is what the article is all about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbx118 (talkcontribs) 15:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that these are cases covered by celibacy as it is discussed in this article. In the lede we define a vow of celibacy as a promise not to enter into marriage or engage in sexual intercourse (my emphasis). These two cases are more virginity pledges than vows of celibacy. -- SiobhanHansa 20:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Celibacy is defined as referring to be being either unmarried or to sexual abstinence., the cases mentioned cover both in this instance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbx118 (talkcontribs) 15:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

You're reading that as an either one or the other case, but by that reasoning anyone who has sex but isn't married is celibate, which isn't what this article intends. I also think the two cases are much clearer examples of virginity pledges than celibacy. The list is, to be fair, a huge mess anyway, and it's not as though I think these are the only two poor inclusions. -- SiobhanHansa 14:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Siobhan - I can surely confirm that no, I'm not reading that as an either one or the other case, I'm using the exact definition given. Jessica Simpson in her case took a vow of celibacy, it doesn't get any clearer or more defined than that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.81.125 (talk) 22:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

So you're using the idea that every person who is unmarried and is not currently engaging in sex is celibate and from that any star who has ever said that they are (or were once) unmarried and not engaging in sex is a notable celibate?
BTW the source you provided for Simpson does not mention a vow of celibacy - in fact it doesn't include the word celibacy or celibate, nor does it say she in anyway said she would refrain from marrying. It says she took a vow of chastity and that she envisioned wedlock as a fairy tale where she would remain a virgin for her husband which indicates that her vow of chastity did not include a conscious decision to refrain from marriage. I'm just pointing out that these are nuanced terms and you seem to be treating virginity, chastity and celibacy as interchangeable. -- SiobhanHansa 03:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I am removing again the names of actress Jessica Simpson and Britney Spears a very-well know whore. Get married as a virgin do not implies celibacy. My grandmother and my mother and millions of peoples engaged in their weddings in virgin state, due this was be a cultural ethics. Don't be stupid your moron. Rodrigo Zauli —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.62.161.228 (talk) 14:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

To the Wikipedia Team: Can we discard the above immature comments? I've re-applied the names Britney Spears and Jessica Simpson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.81.125 (talk) 22:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with discarding the stupid/moron comment, though I think the rest of what he said was fine. How about having 2 separate sublists? One list could be for people who are permanently celibate, and the other list could be for people who are only waiting for marriage. Both categories are worth mentioning, but I think they should be separate. There's a big difference between someone who never has sex and someone who only has sex while married. --cowgod14 26 June 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 16:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Anyone who's over about 30 and is still a virgin is unusual in most societies today, but choosing to remain a virgin until marriage is not as unusual as the media might make you think. Some might slip from it if love takes a while to happen, or subsequently become keen on sex as seperate from love, but those who remain celibate because Mr/Mrs Right doesn't come along and they won't settle for Mr/Mrs Right Now are notable.--MartinUK (talk) 18:45, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

POV tag[edit]

I'm doing POV tag cleanup. Whenever an POV tag is placed, it is necessary to also post a message in the discussion section stating clearly why it is thought the article does not comply with POV guidelines, and suggestions for how to improve it. This permits discussion and consensus among editors. This is a drive-by tag, which is discouraged in WP, and it shall be removed. Future tags should have discussion posted as to why the tag was placed, and how the topic might be improved. Better yet, edit the topic yourself with the improvements. This statement is not a judgement of content, it is only a cleanup of frivolously and/or arbitrarily placed tags. No discussion, no tag.Jjdon (talk) 17:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I have edited one of the reasons for celibacy[edit]

The article read like this "An inability to find a sexual partner that one finds acceptable or tolerable" with a link to involuntary Celibacy. Involuntary Celibacy is if a person is unable to find a sexual partner. If one can find a sexual partner but refuse their Celibacy is not Involuntary it is due to their choice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris smith jones (talkcontribs) 16:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

A reason for celibacy?[edit]

I was reading this article and I noticed that one possible reason for celibacy is missing. It is the reason I have chosen to become a celibate: I have a mental disorder that many people are trying to cure (I won't mention which one because it's not relevant in this context), and I have become a celibate so that I cannot have children and therefore cannot contribute to the continuation of this mental disorder's gene.

What I'm saying is, do enough people become celibates for the reason that they cannot reproduce and therefore not give their unborn children undesirable genetic qualities (like defects, mental disorders, ect.)? If so, would this be worth putting on this article? Pippin the Mercury (talk) 00:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that would be a good thing to add, but you've got to find an article or something that mentions this so that you have a citation. Cowgod14 (talk) 21:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I changed the definition[edit]

The article insisted that celibacy means not being married and insisted that is wasn't about not having sex. It said that not having sex was "chastity." However, that's not what the page on chastity said. This definition of celibacy goes against how the word is used in the rest of the article and how it is used generally. I changed the definition to "not having sex," and included the less common meaning (that is still in dictionaries, though I've never heard the word used that way) at the end of the introduction. A good discussion of celibacy can be found on http://www.answers.com/celibacy/. Another interesting discussion can be found an article that examines how the word celibacy is used: http://asexystuff.blogspot.com/2008/09/what-is-celibacy.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.131.113 (talk) 00:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Celibacy is not the same as chastity. To be celibate is to be unmarried. To be chaste is to not have sexual intercourse. (Oxford Universal Dictionary Third Edition: Celibacy - The state of living unmarried. Celibate - Unmarried, single, bound not to marry.) A person can be celibate and still have sex. Lettwoman70

Lettwoman70 is correct. Celibacy refers to ones state in regards to marriage. It does not mean "doesnt't have sex" To my limited knowlege there is no such word in English. The word is associted with that definition because in the Judeo/Christian tradition the married state is the only state in which sexual intercourse is acceptable. Even chastity refers to being true to ones married or unmarried state. Therefore, if one is married one may be said to be chaste if one only has sexual intercourse with one's spouse. I do however recognize that the "no sex" definition may be the more prevalent but this work is supposed to show the facts not what is commonly belived. I changed the definition to reflect this.--Kjrjr (talk) 18:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely agree and I challenge the person who changed the definition to... 'or not having sex' to find any reference to celibacy meaning 'not having sex' previous to Paris Hilton making the vow in the early 2000s. When Hollywood types like Paris Hilton wanted to make vows against having sex, they mistakenly (or on purpose) used the term for a vow of being unmarried 'celibacy' - because it sounds strange. Had she used the correct term like 'chastity', 'continence' or 'abstinence', she would've been saying 'I'm done being a slut for awhile.' PLEASE let's not have Hollywood morons inform our language! If Paris Hilton had said that she had taken a vow of 'Apocalypse' and other idiots followed her lead - would that be the new definition of Apocalypse? Here is a history of celibacy. You will see that the entire focus is 'marriage' not 'sex'. http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/mcgovern/celhist1.html

Here's the Encyclopedia Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/101371/celibacy

"Celibacy, the state of being unmarried and, therefore, sexually abstinent, usually in association with the role of a religious official or devotee. In its narrow sense, the term is applied only to those for whom the unmarried state is the result of a sacred vow, act of renunciation, or religious conviction. Celibacy has existed in one form or another throughout history and in virtually all the major religions of the world."

Please change it back to the CORRECT definition: 'The state of being unmarried'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.135.82.44 (talk) 18:38, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Possible copyvio[edit]

Hi. Please see the article history. I removed text added by User_talk:64.252.184.216 which seemed to be a copyright violation from http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1906063,00.html - unless of course Time borrowed it from Wikipedia in the first place? DBaK (talk) 15:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Essay from User:Prithviraj chouhan[edit]

Hi. Please see the article history. I removed what appeared to be a long and not entirely encyclopaedic essay from User:Prithviraj chouhan. Please feel free to discuss it here if you think it should be in. Thanks DBaK (talk) 15:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Celibacy on the Buddhist religion is missing[edit]

I am not pro Buddhist but since the monastic tradition of Buddhism whether Mahayana or Theravada practiced celibacy for men & women for thousands of years is a good reason to add the Buddhist religion as one of the advocates of celibacy today.--121.54.68.114 (talk) 12:40, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Catholic Church[edit]

I have studied the Scriptures at length, and have failed to find the ancient tradition spoke of in this section. I also have found that the reference of "The Resurrection" spoken of by the Messiah may be taken out of context. If you read (it isn't hard to do) you will find that the resurrection is BEFORE judgment, when the Bride of The Elohim is chosen. After Judgment, they will be The Elohim's Bride, in Marriage.

I have also found, that there seems to be an inconsistency with the whole sentence that contains the phrase "celibacy is not a doctrine of the Church but a church rule or discipline." I would like some elaboration and explanation on this, as I thought (as written in Doctrine), a doctrine is a church rule, law, or discipline (systematic instruction given to a disciple. i.e. an instruction) which fits into "a body of teachings" or "instructions", as noted by Doctrine, as well as the fact that each of these "Church Rules" vary from system to system, they could even fit "as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system."

One more thing... I would love to see the passage in the Scriptures that allow the Church to go ahead and Override the Elohim's laws, change the festivals, change the day of rest/worship, and create these "new laws."

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.149.253 (talk) 20:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi,

I just skimmed through the article. I didn't read the resurrection bit so I'll leave that.

However the discipline vs doctrine question I can probably assist with. I believe what that is expressing is that Catholics don't believe that God requires priests to be celibate. So in that sense it isn't a doctrine. However there was a long history of problems with the call to live as eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven and the rule attempts to address that. Now I haven't looked at the definitions so you might be right but that is the distinction intended when the terms are used (misused).

You obviously like studying the scriptures at length so I invite you to focus on the New Testament to get the answer to your subsequent questions. Skip past the gospels and you will be getting warm. Since you don't use the term Jehovah can I assume you are a seventh day adventist or are you from a smaller group? Most Christians consider it licit to celebrate Christmas, have the Lord's day as our sabbath and organise housekeeping within the Church. If adventists are anything like their JW offshoots your Bible might be tweaked for your belief system. If so you might not find the stuff and I apologise for sending you on a wild goose chase. Yeenar (talk) 01:57, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

We read that "In the Roman Catholic Church the apostles were considered the first priests and bishops in the Church and the call to be eunuchs in Matthew 19 referred to above is considered to be a call to be sexually continent. This developed into mandatory celibacy for priests who are believed to be the successors of the apostles." I believe that mandatory celibacy is the order of the day in the RC Church so why is the RC Church state of affairs re this topic not removed from the 'Celebicy' section and instead posted in the Involuntary celibacy section?Eog1916 (talk) 06:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Because you won't be ordained to priesthood involuntarily.--Turris Davidica (talk) 09:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the Eog comment above. Who is to say that RC priest celibacy is voluntary or involuntary? By saying that the article on "Celibacy" refers to only voluntary celibates and inserting the RC priesthood under this, Wiki seems to be assuming that priests freely choose celibacy not just before ordination but throughout their priesthood. In fact, I know of many priests who left active clerical ministry because they struggled for years as involuntary celibate priests. Can we please improve on this asap; it is highly problematic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.7.124 (talk) 22:57, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Needs coverage of health implications[edit]

This article really should cover the health implications of celibacy. It kind of glosses over the health disadvantages. Zodon (talk) 09:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

They're really health implications of sexual abstinence rather than celibacy, so they're discussed at Sexual abstinence#Possible physical effects. Pais (talk) 09:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Suggest merging all celibacy entries[edit]

Currently there is an "involuntary celibacy" entry that exceeds the length of this main celibacy entry. By combining entries the main points will be sorted out and lead down the line to stronger interconnected pages on the topic. For now, there appears to be some pages with social focus, others with psychological, some with heavy opinion statements, etc. This main celibacy page is the correct venue to sort through content and potential wikipedia policy violations (98.218.218.120 (talk) 05:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)).

Introduction that created dispute[edit]

Please correct my point of view if I'm wrong, but I think that the key of celibacy is to avoid civil unions and sexual relationships (not intercourse!). And "abstention from sexual relationships" is correct, but not intercourse.

Maybe it never was. Maybe I'm just dumb. So... just note that. Thank you,184.163.123.4 (talk) 02:45, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

No, celibacy means abstaining from sexual intercourse or other carnal pleasures. in most religions, this is tantamount to abstaining from marriage (since few if any religions condone sexuality outside of marriage), but the key element is maintaining physical purity. Note that religions often talk about the importance of celibacy prior to marriage (strict Catholic diocese, for instance, will insist that couples remain celibate during their engagement, and technically are supposed to refuse to marry couples that don't). Full celibacy (such as those that Catholic priests and nuns and Buddhist monks undertake) also prohibits marriage, but not because of the marriage itself: Priests and nuns are doctrinally married to Christ, and Buddhists surrender all worldly cravings. --Ludwigs2 05:11, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Definitions can be confusing, and celibacy is sometimes defined as abstaining from marriage. But as Ludwigs2 suggests, I think that definition stems from the days when "marriage" and "a relationship involving sexual intercourse" were effectively synonyms - and by remaining unmarried, that was effectively saying one was abstaining from sexual intercourse. Today, many people have active sex lives without marrying - but I really don't think anyone would consider that to be celibacy. And to add something to the Buddhist monk thing, in my wife's native Thailand, it's fairly common for married men to become monks for a temporary period - they are required to be celibate during that time, but that means abstaining from sexual intercourse, not getting a divorce. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Socio-sexual activity at a distance[edit]

Are people who engage in sexual activity with others at a distance, such as cybersex, sexting and phone sex regarded as celibate if they don't engage in any sexual activity in person with anyone? Does sex chat etc with someone who is miles away from the person mean that the person is not celibate, or does a person have to have actual sex to be not considered celibate? How about a person who chooses to take part in mutual masturbation whilst in the same room with someone, but chooses to never have intercourse - is he celibate? The article should state where the line is drawn to define the threshold of where celibacy begins and ends. 188.28.227.101 (talk) 18:04, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Dada Bhagwan – The Science of Celibacy[edit]

Practice of Celibacy There are two things in this world that one should not waste, One is money and the other is semen. Money should not be misused and one should practice Celibacy as much as possible. The ultimate extract of our nourishment is semen and it is dissipated and lost in sex. There are certain nerves in the body that help preserve semen and this in turn protects the body. Therefore, Celibacy should be preserved as much as possible.[38]

Celibacy (Brahmacharya) is the life force of the body (non-self). The ultimate essence of the food we eat and drink is Celibacy. If this essence, Celibacy disappears, then the foundation of the relative self to the Pure Self becomes unstable and loose. And then the exact experience and attainment of the Self becomes very difficult. Therefore, Celibacy is a critical spiritual practice. There is no end to bliss if there is Gnan (Knowledge of the Self) on one side and Celibacy on the other. Then it brings about an unbelievable change. It is because Celibacy is the life force and the essence of the body.[39]

Celibacy should be practiced with understanding. If the fruit of Celibacy is not moksha (Liberation) then,Celibacy is like castration. It will make the body good, strong, and good looking and would live longer. Even a bull becomes strong and healthy.[40]

[edit] The Keys to Practice Celibacy by Dada Bhagwan

• Unflinching determination to practice Celibacy with the support of Dada’s Science. Dada Bhagwan has shown a way to practice Celibacy; one should have the deep inner intent and second the person’s unflinching determination to do so.[41]

• 3 Vision - stops Sexual Vision: Dada Bhagwan’s three vision is exceptional and is a very powerful tool to help conquer Sexual Vision - the first vision is to see him/her without clothes, the second Vision awareness arises when the body is without the Skin and the third Vision is seeing the intestines, the kind the person sees when the stomach is cut open. Visualize the changes that occur within the intestines, see the blood vessels, fecal matter. This will stop sexual impulse arising.[42]

• True Repentance and Introspection to help overcome Sexual Thoughts in Akram Science, this is a practical day to day medicine that helps the person to overcome Sexual thoughts and desires. By doing repentance the person is washing away their thoughts or desires which occurred earlier and that helps further, next time the thoughts become weaker so it’s easier to deal with the situation in front of the person. If the has a thought of Sexuality, if the person throws away the thought within two seconds, then the thought completely disappear.[43]

• The Keys of Celibacy for Married People, This science of Celibacy will liberate anyone, and is applicable to even married people. It is ignorance of the Self that is the obstruction.[44]

• Exclusive Nature Of Celibacy In Akram Science, If the person takes the Knowledge of the Self through the Self Realization process, then to practice Celibacy would be very easy. [45] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vorajinesh (talkcontribs) 10:15, 22 August 2012 (UTC) Vorajinesh (talk) 10:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Two problems. This is all based on primary sources. And the author's reliablility and usefulness is recognized by no own outside of his small, fringe religious community. Independent mainstream scholars have not discussed this seiously and in depth. It therefore violates both WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 11:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Celibacy and sexual abstinence[edit]

Refererring to this [1] changement: The same IP has repeatedly changed the reasoned and much more detailed statement that celibacy and sexual abstinence are not the same to the meaning that they are the same. Please note: the former statement has been mutally referenced, amongst others by specialist literature.--Turris Davidica (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity, "repeatedly" means twice. This is also the number of times my changes have been undone by Turris.

First, what is claimed above is false. I did not write that abstinence and celibacy are the same. I wrote that they are similar, but subtly different, reference two online dictionary sources. Here they are for your consideration:

cel·i·ba·cy   [sel-uh-buh-see]

1.abstention from sexual relations.

2.abstention by vow from marriage: the celibacy of priests.

3.the state of being unmarried.

(Dictionary.com)


1: the state of not being married

2a: abstention from sexual intercourse b: abstention by vow from marriage

(Merriam Webster)

As can be easily understood from these two independent sources in agreement, "celibacy" refers either to the state of being unmarried or is defined as a subtype of abstinence.

Second, the use of Gabrielle Brown's book is highly inappropriate. It is an opinion and self-help type book, not a reference for defining words. The phrase referenced is "abstinence is a response on the outside to what's going on, and celibacy is a response from the inside". The definition provided, then is "celibacy is a response from the inside" (inside of what? what kind of response? a response to what?) This definition is inaccurate and false.

I don't know if Turris is attempting to change the definition of celibacy or to sell Gabrielle Brown's book, but this section needs to be fixed. You can't have a reasonable discussion of a word without first defining the word accurately. 75.65.34.19 (talk) 00:40, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

External links[edit]

Previously I removed these two links from the article. They were put back in with the request to explain my objections against them:

See WP:ELYES: What can normally be linked. Number 1 and 2 clearly do not apply. Point 3 says: "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article ..."
The links that were added are in no way neutral. They reflect a spiritual teacher's point of view. In spite of the name, there is nothing scientific in the second link "Celibacy with Scientific Understanding". These are "just" teachings. I mean, in which peer-reviewed journal has this "scientific understanding" been published?

See also WP:ELNO: Links normally to be avoided. Number 4: Links mainly intended to promote a website. The last week or so, these Dada Bhagwan links have showed up at different places in Wikipedia, and you've probably noticed that I have removed a lot of them. I understand that you probably feel deeply about Dada Bhagwan but Wikipedia is not the place to promote him.
Namaste, Lova Falk talk 13:37, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Psychological/Evolutionary Explanation?[edit]

I think we should cover the psychological and/or evolutionary explanation for this behaviour. I'm sure someone must have covered it.. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 03:36, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Information rearrangement[edit]

This page, Clerical celibacy, Clerical celibacy (Catholic Church) for example seem to cover somewhat overlapping topics - is there a better way we could divvy up all of this information, leaving only brief mentions of the related articles, with section hatnotes leading to the proper main articles? AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 09:00, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Incel[edit]

Should "incel" really redirect here? It is one thing to redirect the full term "involuntary celibacy" here, but "incel" does not appear to be a proper term. Could this redirect be removed by any chance? Mythic Writerlord (talk) 18:22, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Consider redirecting it back to the pharmaceutical, Biricodar. A disambiguation page for the two obscure uses would also be possible.Novangelis (talk) 21:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Incel is merely an abbreviation of involuntary celibacy. MalleusMaleficarum1486 (talk) 19:40, 19 January 2014 (UTC)


  • If it is not voluntary, better back to the pharmaceutical, I think. Hafspajen (talk) 19:45, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
I will revert it back, but MalleusMaleficarum keeps reverting it and edit-warring on the subject. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 19:54, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Sigh. I am not sure that this should be here at all. Celibacy (from Latin, cælibatus) is the state of being unmarried and/or sexually abstinent, usually for religious reasons. This should be a clue. A disambiguation page, yes maybe. Hafspajen (talk) 21:45, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Read the article entry and it looks to me that the votes were more for merging into than Celibacy. Celibacy is a clerical, religious stuff. Hafspajen (talk) 22:09, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Seeing as though there is such limited sourcing for the entire condition to begin with, we might as well remove it from wikipedia altogether for the time being. It certainly does not seem to be an issue that warrants such a large and long-winded section on any article. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 22:12, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Well, I wouldn't go so far, but I don't understand what this has to do here. I would remove it to Sexual abstinence, and hope fot the best. I mean it is not a religious thing. Celibacy is a religious behavioral issue, and motivated by factors as personal or religious beliefs... Hafspajen (talk) 22:23, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
We could delete the "involuntary celibacy" redirect then and redirect "involuntary abstinence" to the article on abstinence, making it a sub-section there? Said section could be a bit shorter, too (5000 letters seems a bit excessive). This way it would be included, but in a more fitting location. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 22:29, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, do that. Please. Sexual abstinence covers medical, psychological, legal, social, financial, philosophical, moral aspects. Hafspajen (talk) 22:35, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
We could. But I would prefer not to personally rename\remove redirects and place the section in another article without a wider consensus. I've been involved in this discussion for a while now so it would be better for the actions to be done by someone less involved. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 22:43, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Well this is silly. What to do. Hafspajen (talk) 23:18, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Such a proposal is completely baffling. The involuntary part of the article uses sources that talk about the term involuntary celibacy. MalleusMaleficarum1486 (talk) 00:30, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

No, not quite. OK:Studied this thing here, and the arguments why this has been merged here are kind of circular, because it is called celibacy; it has to be merged into Celibacy: Furthermore, celibacy, not abstinence, is the clear choice here, as the term “involuntary celibacy” itself indicates celibacy can be both voluntary and involuntary. So far so good. But the choice is not quite so clear.

The problem is that the term is not defined quite clearly: The sourcing provided by Atethnekos (which was also pointed to by a few editors) is also inconclusive to backing the inclusion of this article, as most of those sources do not actually use the term "Involuntary celibacy", but instead describe the apparent phenomenon in conjunction with other terms like "sexlessness". The few sources that do use this term seem to be the primary source from which the term has been derived, those being Donnelly, Burgess and Abbott... and those particular papers do not seem to have gained widespread traction, use or review (at least no one has produced any evidence of such in this discussion). Therefore, the argument stating that this term is a possible neologism has a good deal of weight, but not enough to warrant deletion. With all of this taken into consideration, the best possible course of action here (per the discussion) is to merge this into the celibacy article, until the time comes (if it comes) when enough reliable secondary sources are present to warrant a full separate article. Furthermore, celibacy, not abstinence, is the clear choice here, as the term “involuntary celibacy” itself indicates celibacy can be both voluntary and involuntary. Denise A Donnelly Elisabeth O Burgess should have studied religion history and the definition of celibacy before naming their object celibacy, because it has nothing to do with religion. As Scott stated at the discussion:There is no recognized, formal definition for this term. This is the Donnelly, Burgess and Abbott definition of what they were analizing, but, not the common definition of celibacy.

This is the definition of Celibacy:

The deliberate abstinence from sexual activity, usually in connection with a religious role or practice. It has existed in some form in most world religions. It may indicate a person's ritual purity (sexual relations being viewed as polluting) or may be adopted to facilitate spiritual advancement (as sexual activity would take place only within the bonds of matrimony, marriage and family were seen as an entangling distraction). In shamanistic religions, shamans are often celibate. In Hinduism, “holy men” (or women) who have left ordinary secular life to seek final liberation are celibate. Buddhism began as a celibate order, though many sects have since given up celibacy. Chinese taoism has monastics and independent celibate adepts. Islam has no institutional celibacy, but individuals may embrace it for personal spiritual advancement. Judaism has prescribed periods of abstinence, but long-term celibacy has not played a large role. The early Christian church tended to regard celibacy as superior to marriage. Since the 12th century it has been the rule for Roman Catholic clergy, though clerical celibacy was never adopted by Protestantism.

I think Flyer22 made this Quite clear at the discussion, but wonder why nobody listened. Hafspajen (talk) 00:41, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I wondered why this whole passage embracing „Involuntary celibacy" has been included here. Celibacy is a decision someone makes voluntarily (and often promises or even vows coram publico, while involuntary celibacy is not.--Turris Davidica (talk) 10:25, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Bless you, Turris Davidica. Yes, I wonder too. But there are some researcher who made some research on people who can't get themselves a partner, and call it, quite sloppily celibacy - and there was a nomination for deletion [2]and now we got this into THIS article, and I don't agree with it. Hafspajen (talk) 12:09, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

The content was merged here per AFD, in which all of you could have participated. If you want to change broader consensus, please seek to do so in the proper venue. That discussion concluded that sexual abstinence was not the proper target for the content. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:31, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, SandyGeorgia, quite true, we could have participated, and if only we would new, we would. We the editors in this article didn't realised that. Bad luck. I still think that celibacy - in the way - they use the word is not what this article is about. The issue here is an unfree social behaviour. Hafspajen (talk) 14:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
The AFD was included in sexuality discussions-- you gotta follow AFD! I'm not unsympathetic to the concern, but we can't just delete content that survived AFD. And I'm not sure how or where one goes next to revisit that consensus ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:44, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Sigh. Yes, I know, we can't just delete content that survived AFD. Hafspajen (talk) 15:58, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
There is a difference, of course, between removing content entirely, and moving content to another (possibly more fitting) article in a shortened version which is what I suggested. The section is, as it now seems, a bit too large and not in the right place. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 16:36, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Oh well, SandyGeorgia and Mythic Writerlord - is it possible to keep this section at least to three-four sentences? Not only that it is missplaced but it takes over the article. As it says. There is extremely little sexological study regarding involuntary celibacy. Now celibacy as it stands in this article is NOT a topic for sexological study, and this is mainly the problem in a nutshell. Hafspajen (talk) 16:51, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Mythic Writerlord seems to be suggesting moving content to another article in direct contradiction to the AFD outcome. And this sort of thing (not the first time), needs to stop; there was an AFD, and until/unless someone figures out where/how to revisit the outcome, it is what it is. I have no objection to the content being pruned; articles should reflect due weight. My role was to merge the content faithful to the AFD, but I agree there is now undue weight given to the section. I suggest that you, Hafspajen, undertake that work rather than Mythic Writerlord, as s/he seems to have some strong views on the matter that may cloud edits. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:29, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
OK, we do so. Until then, we (I) try to just make the content less proeminent. SandyGeorgia and Mythic Writerlord - shall we settle for let's say half of the text - or less? Hafspajen (talk) 20:53, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Third (that is, two-thirds cut) to half works for me ... why do you indent weird? I think a lot of the cutting could come from the overly detailed descriptions of Donnelly's work; there's no need to give so much weight and space to describing, basically, one person's work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:15, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
  • ... what do you mean.. . indent weird?Hafspajen (talk) 21:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
  • You're supposed to indent one more than the person you are responding to, so it's clear to whom you are responding. You keep altering the indents backwards. (WP:INDENT) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:02, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Well. Hafspajen (talk) 22:03, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Allrighty then. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:08, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Interesting, I never thought about it, but I really do that backwards. Face-smile.svg It is probably a way of keeping the talkpage in balance, probably an occupational disease - being an artist (also) - display, balace and layout are main issues one is working with. I AM disturbed by the discussions getting smaller and smaller - it makes me feel weird. Hafspajen (talk) 02:25, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Mythic Writerlord, I believe you are well aware of the consensus at the AFD, yet you have continued to remove the merged content without revisiting the AFD/merge discussion. [3] [4] I will contact the admin who closed the AFD. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:06, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Not just me, but several others are removing it. The one placing it back is a user who is a sockpuppet of the permanently banned Malleus-something account who was rallying for the article to be kept in the first place. I have reported him to Coffee earlier today. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 20:09, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Not several others, from what I see. There's you and then there's Turris Davidica. Flyer22 (talk) 20:24, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Please, SandyGeorgia, is it possible to move this stuff to an other article? I understand that there was a consensus at the AFD, really do, but is this really a very definite last word? Please. Hafspajen (talk) 20:25, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I understand your concern, hafspajen, but there was already a community process, and both Turris and Mythic are editwarring against broader community consensus, as judged by Coffee who closed the AFD with a merge (sorry that my role here was to complete the merge, as there seem to be some serious off-Wiki issues occurring on the topic). I am not certain exactly how one goes about revisiting the consensus of an AFD-- perhaps Coffee can advise. Short of a broader consensus that overturns the consensus on that AFD, both Turris and Mythic needs to stop edit warring and respect the consensus. In other words, I hope Coffee or some other admin will advise how one goes about revisiting an AFD. Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:30, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
I reverted one edit on this page today, SandyGeorgia. One. That's hardly "edit warring". And I already said I would refrain from editing the page from now on, so really there isn't much of an issue here. I respect the outcome of the AfD. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 20:33, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I am sorry about this. I understand that people want to preserve this addition, but I am not sure this really is the right place. Very unfortunate that emotions run high. I still feel merging this to a better place could resolve this. Can't we put this stuff here -> Sexual frustration? This article really has only three lines, it mentions incel, and this article may benefit by it. I feel problems may just go on, and will continue because this is not the proper place for this. Hafspajen (talk) 20:45, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
First of all: this not an edit-war. On several discussions as well as here there has been expressed concern about the fact that the contents of "involuntary celibacy" have nothing to do with celibacy: „Involuntary celibacy“ is completely different from celibacy due to its 'lack of voluntariness. Another problem is that iMHO the shifting of this content from its on lemma never was discussed here on the article celibacy but in some remote discussions we've never been aware of. I suggest to look for an article which is more suitable for the content about lack of sexual intercourse than an article on voluntarily promised or even vowed celibacy.--Turris Davidica (talk) 10:07, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Turris Davidica, it's been referred to as an edit war because of how WP:Edit war defines an edit war. Flyer22 (talk) 12:51, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Mind you, as far as I'm concerned: I didn't revert several times and I tried to explain the reason for my edits both in edit comments and on the discussion page. The user who continously reverted my and other users edits never left the slightest word here on the talk page (and is apparently suspected of a sockpuppetry, btw.)--Turris Davidica (talk) 13:31, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Neither me, nor Turris Davidica reverted more then two times. The only user to do so thrice is Andrey. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 13:40, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
[ WP: Edit conflict ]: Turris Davidica, you don't have to revert several times for it to be WP:Edit warring. And no matter how anyone defines "several," the keyword is "repeatedly" when it comes to WP:Edit warring...as in "more than once." You, Andrey Rublyov and Mythic Writerlord repeatedly reverting one another all made up what is accurately termed "a WP:Edit war." I understand that you have been working out the aforementioned disputed content here on the talk page. I'm just explaining what Wikipedia considers edit warring. If such reverting continues, a WP:Administrator is likely to WP:Protect (fully protect) the Celibacy article to not only stop the edit warring, but to inspire talk page communication in order to reach WP:Consensus on the matter, and might also temporarily block one or more of the people repeatedly reverting.
Mythic Writerlord, similar to what I told Turris Davidica above, WP:Edit warring is not about whether or not one has "reverted more th[a]n two times." For example, a Wikipedia editor does not have to breach WP:3RR (the three-revert rule) for repeated reverting to be a WP:Edit warring violation. Flyer22 (talk) 13:55, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Flyer22 is correct. In the absence of feedback from Coffee, who closed the AFD, Nikkimaria indicated on my talk page that WP:DRV might be the next stop in re-evaluating the consensus of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (2nd nomination). But I looked over the conditions required for initiating a DRV, and they are not met in this case. Perhaps the next step is to open an RFC. What can't be done is for two editors to just delete content that specifically survived a recent AFD, without new consensus supporting that removal. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:04, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Neither me nor Turris are removing anything at this stage. There have been no more edits since yesterday and I welcome renewed discussion to reach a broad consensus before any new steps are taken. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 14:11, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Maybe someone should tell this Andrey Rublyov, too. – As I've already expressed on other talk pages such as SandyGeorgias: I withdraw from any action regarding the content in question until further notice. I am sorry for the inconvenience, I didn't mean to do any harm to the article, in the contrary.--Turris Davidica (talk) 14:27, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Since Andrey Rublyov knows enough to see when the content is removed and then revert, it might be that he has this article, and therefore this talk page, on his WP:Watchlist. If he does not see the above information about edit warring and what SandyGeorgia stated about seeing if a new WP:Consensus forms, and he does not understand it completely, then, yes, he should be informed of those matters as well. Flyer22 (talk) 14:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
  • The real problem is that this content doesn't really fit here. I do respect that the outcome is merge, and it should be preserved somehow, yes. But really, you know, has to be this article? Some day it will be removed, anyway. If not by us, than by some other editor who knows about this topic. This content will probably has to be garded all the time. It would be much better to merge it somewhere there it would be a natural place for it, like Sexual frustration, or so. Celibacy is something connected to religious observance, not - eh, bad luck - not managing to find a girl. Hafspajen (talk) 18:33, 8 March 2014 (UTC)


Last revert.[edit]

'Actually I am not sure that it was unconstructive edit of an IP.[5] It only had no references. Monks of Japanese Zen, Pure Land, Tendai, Shingon, Nichiren, etc., etc. (all denominations of Japanese Buddhism) can marry and be Monks at the same time (but not all do). Monks of some traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, like the Nyingmapa, can marry. While other Tibetan traditions, like the Kagyupa, cannot. The same is true for Korean Buddhists. Some can't, and some can. Typically Theravadin Monks (Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma, Laos, Cambodia, etc.) may stay in monastic practice for a period of time, then some will decide to leave and get married and get a job. This is totally accepted and encouraged. Chinese, Taiwanese, and Vietnamese Monks are expected to uphold the vows of a Monk for the rest of their lives. These vows include celibacy, which means that Monks may never marry in these traditions. Some pages that support this: [6] [7][8][9] [10][11] Hafspajen (talk) 12:33, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

My reverts[edit]

Since I was called to say something here I will. Not much to say at all, really. A group of no more than 2-3 users who never engaged in any substantial discussion at all are claiming there is some kind of consensus on the talk page about material that was placed here after the AfD. Certainly grossly against the rules. Their proposals for it to be moved on articles like Sexual frustration are completely unsubstantiated, which they didn't even try to do so I will not go into arguments against this.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 19:44, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry to say, but is not unsubstantiated, Andrey. I am sorry that you got reverted and not discussed, bur not much I can do now about it. But, do you understand that this article is about the religious observance? Celibacy refers to a state of abstinence from sexual intercourse or the abstention by vow from marriage or other sexual activity. Abstinence is a self-enforced restraint from indulging in bodily activities. Something that is made because people want to do it. They really chosed this, and can actually change it if they want too, leave the convent or ceise to be monks. Hafspajen (talk) 19:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Hi, Hafspajen. Unfortunately, what you're saying here doesn't seem to be correct or at least in line with what the article says. Not even the first sentence says it's always for religious reasons and while religion is mentioned at times there are many parts which don't involve it at all. Andrey Rublyov (talk) 20:05, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Hafspajen did not state "solely for religious reasons." But celibacy (at least if one doesn't define it as sexual abstinence for any reason) is "usually for religious reasons," and the well sourced first line of the Celibacy article makes that clear. Flyer22 (talk) 20:15, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
He did not state it in these words exactly but something like "But, do you understand that this article is about the religious observance?" heavily implies that he believes it to be for religious reasons only when good portions of article, not just those on Involuntary celibacy, say otherwise.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 20:50, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
And, also Donnelly and Burgess used a limit of six months of involuntary celibacy when they carried out their study. It was enough. Well, I am not sure. Hafspajen (talk) 20:18, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, you have a good point here. The issue is that this problem deserves its own article, as it isn't really about celibacy in terms of what it usually is nor is it always limited to sex. Yet here we are. A bad compromise was achieved.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 20:21, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Well, I wouldn't mind having its own article, but there you go, this consensus at the AFD. The problem is the religious aspect here. Also, if you dislike the idea of Sexual frustration,(which I think that would be a good solution) there is Sexual abstinence; the practice of refraining from some or all aspects of sexual activity for medical, psychological, legal, social, financial, philosophical, and so on, it will be a better choice. Hafspajen (talk) 20:24, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
  • So, the circle is closed. This is the core of the whole issue. Celibacy say one thing, Involuntary celibacy, say otherwise. Hafspajen (talk) 20:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
This book's author cited in the lead was admitting that she is talking about celibacy in a different way as the general academic definition of celibacy as per dictionary - that is the usual definition of celibacy.


She wrote (page 16-17) : I also drafted a definition that discarded the rigidly pedantic and unhelpfull distingtions between celibacy, chastity and virginity, all of wich I used as key words in my research. Despite dry dictionary definitions they are, in the context of this book, synonymos. Risking tedium... I cite Webster's dictionary: ... celibacy is the state of being unmarried, especially that under a wow . But what she calls in her book non religious celibacy is actually not celibacy but chastity. And this is only one view; her wiev. She wishes to use those terms contrary what is the usual, generally accepted definition, well, it is her book, her choice. She has a doctorate in 19th-century history from McGill University, not sexology or religion history. But we can't change the established definition because of one source that is different. OK, two sources, the other one is the fairly narrow research of those three people who conducted this incel research, most probably based on her definition. And about Donnely, she is basing this on the 82 persons who comprise her sample per e-mail. (60 men and 22 women). Also, sixty-three percent were age 34 or younger (the modal category was ages 25-34). Not that uncommon that people at this age are six month without a partner, or even more without it need to be considered as unusual - or as a new unresearched behaviour. I don't really think that this quite narrow research can change the definition of celibacy. Hafspajen (talk) 01:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Involuntary[edit]

Two researchers I have never heard of and who are not in any way notable did a research on "involuntary celibacy" and this is somehow enough ground to justify a section in an otherwisen unrelated article? Seems a bit fishy to me. The whole part on female-abortion and hindu culture seemed more then a little far fetched and only supported by one single (questionable) source so I took it out. Can this section not be moved to the sexual frustration article or otherwise removed altogether? As it now stands there appears to be very little grounds to include this and next to no proper sources. 195.240.150.14 (talk) 10:05, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Yeah. We know this, you know. Hafspajen (talk) 10:22, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
So can anything be done about this? 195.240.150.14 (talk) 10:27, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, soner or later it will be removed I guess, for obvious reasons. The problem is the disscussion above. This thing had an article. Somebody said it should be deleted. There was a decision, maybe not so wise to merge this stuff in here. You can maybe try to ask for a Requests for comment. Hafspajen (talk) 11:00, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment This is all I can do. Hafspajen (talk) 11:32, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Many various parts of this article have one or no source. The editor seems to be pushing his own agenda. Also, I don't see how the article is unrelated, as it discusses various perspectives on celibacy.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 11:41, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
As pointed out several times: alas, involuntary celibacy is not celibacy at all and therefore unrelated.--Turris Davidica (talk) 12:08, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
The entire term is nonsense already in itself. It's contradictive and strange, largely unsourced and not mentioned by any credible research whatsoever. The section is also too long. Please, Andrey Rublyov, stop trying to include the second part of the section. It does not need to be this long. This behaviour is disruptive and not helping the article's quality at all, nor is it bringing us any closer to finding a solution. 195.240.150.14 (talk) 07:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
"Contradictive" isn't a even a word and as for being contradictory it is explained this this term means involuntary as opposed to it usually being voluntary. Parts you removed were sources, better than some parts of the article you didn't remove and you make no explanation to why Donnelly's reaserch isn't credible nor why is the section too long. You just assert. I think behavior going against consensus achieved after the merging is disruptive, not my attempts to stop the disruption.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 18:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
The only disruptive editor is you, insisting on keeping the section as long as it is when there's no need for it. There are other parts that are not sufficiently sourced? Fine. Then go and work on those parts. Remove information if you deem it not needed. But don't go around re-adding content that was agreed upon to be pruned and do not constantly undo edits made by others please. Because that right there is disruptive. 195.240.150.14 (talk) 11:47, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Requests for comment[edit]

Exclude from this page. A consensus of editors felt the material should either be outright deleted or would be better placed in a different existing article, and thus, should be excluded here in any case, but without prejudice to the inclusion of some or all of the material at a different existing article.

For me, one of the most interesting questions raised by this RfC was the relationship of the AfD consensus to the consensus of editors here, a question which has a direct effect on how to weight views for inclusion here based on the AfD. Here I've given some additional weight to the RfC consensus as being more relevant than the AfD consensus. The AfD process, where I spend quite a bit of time, is particularly focused on the question of whether to retain an article as an article or not, and the results tend to be a bit rough around the edges. This discussion appears better focused on the question of the specific text, is not greatly narrower in the number of editors participating in the AfD, and presumably involves editors who are, on average, more familiar with the articles and subject matter, and, on average, are going to be presumed to have better editorial judgment than those of us (like myself) who arrive at these discussions as policy wonks. Taken as a whole, these specifics lead me to believe this discussion is more relevant than the AfD to the present question.

This is less a matter of WP:CCC than a weighing of context.

This discussion does not preclude, in my view, the inclusion of the material at another existing article, I do not find there to be a general consensus on that question, nor would this discussion really be the right place for it. --j⚛e deckertalk 16:35, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

An editor has asked should the "involuntary celibacy" be included in this article? After what happened this is the only way to deal with this issue. User:Hafspajen|Hafspajen]] (talk) 11:32, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Has. And editor has asked. 195.240.150.14 (talk) 07:46, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
What is "involuntary celibacy" and what are the sources supporting the material. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 08:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Read the article.

  • Yes it should be included.
  • No it should not be included.
  • Start voting discussion here:
  • No it should not be included, for various reasons, see above. Hafspajen (talk) 14:09, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
  • No it should not be included, this passage should be moved elsewhere. Celibacy is a decision someone makes voluntarily (and often promises or even vows coram publico, while involuntary celibacy is not.--Turris Davidica (talk) 16:56, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
If that is so why are you for that part of the text being removed? You should just argue for it to be placed somewhere else. You make no arguments for why this part should be removed from here. Unless you can make a sufficient argument I will revert your edits that remove this and bring attention to it from higher-ups.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 19:34, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Ahem, this is a votation. In fact I have argued why this passage is wrong here several times. Please feel free to bring attention to this discussion to whomever you want, I am sure they are able to read the discussion above and elsewhere. IMHO, you've just set out in writing that you will continue editwarrying against the consensus here, Andrey. Several authors have told you that now, not just me.--Turris Davidica (talk) 20:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
  • No it should not be included, instead it should be moved to "sexual frustration" or removed from wikipedia altogether as the subject largely lacks proper sources and is somewhat untrustworthy being a bit of an online term barely if ever used outside internet fora. As it seems, biased editors have for some time now attempted to keep it in against general consensus among this articles editors. The section is also unnecesarily long but editor "Andrey Rubinov" continues to re-include the section portion. 195.240.150.14 (talk) 07:38, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
All of this talk contains no facts or even attempts of proof, just assertions. Assertions going against agreement achieved after this article was merged. As for whether or not it should be merged somewhere or removed that's not for you or me to decide. Administration member Sandy Georgia noted that some biased editors are pushing for deletion against consensus achieved by merging and I am afraid I will have to warn her if this continues. Two or three editors aren't "articles editors" and Wikipedia doesn't work on weasel tactics or words like "this is so because I say so". Andrey Rublyov (talk) 18:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Up to my knowledge, Andrey, you've been told by Sandy Georgia to seek consensus or you could be blocked and have a look at WP:3RR and WP:EDITWAR; [12]. Please do so. You have repeatedly edited and reverted against the consensus of the other authors here.--Turris Davidica (talk) 19:32, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Do not include per WP:COMMONNAME (celibacy typically refers to voluntary celibacy) and WP:FRINGE (this appears to be a fringe use of the term). If there's enough material for a separate article and notability is established, create that article and add "For involuntary celibacy, see ..." EvergreenFir (talk) 20:49, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment David, is there a way to do something about this? Before we all fill this article talk page with hundred pages of complains against this Involuntary celibacy. This topic is going like forever on the We don't want Involuntary celibacy in this article? DavidLeighEllis, as fas as I remember somebody said somewhere that this was a solution to ask for an RCf. There is not possible to have an Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy 3rd nomination - because there is no such article. But the talk page of this article nowadays is just all about how to find a way out of this situation... Hafspajen (talk) 04:15, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
You could nominate Involuntary celibacy for deletion Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion to test whether there is a consensus for unmerger/removal. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 04:20, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, I might, thanks. Is there any way of mentioning all this discussion as a motive for it? Hafspajen (talk) 04:22, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
There is barely enough credible sources to justify a section on wikipedia, let alone an article of itself. General consensus on this was quite clear. A section on a relarted article would be sense, but perhaps the page on celibacy is not the right place for it to be put. We could make a vote on what page best to include it in: sexual frustration, chastity, or as a sub-section on the article virginity perhaps? There's many ways to go about this that would leave the majority of editors satisfied. 195.240.150.14 (talk) 07:21, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, we can start, to begin with. Contrary what people use to say to me that I am a bureaucrat, I am not. Hafspajen (talk) 10:41, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
  • No standalone article - My vote, as it were, starts with an end result and seeks to find a way to get there. There's certainly not enough on this "incel" junk to warrant that again, but the sourcing may be adequate to warrant a few lines here. This is also a bit complicated by the fact that a merge was essentially mandated by the last AfD. How that mandate actually plays out and how it meshes with the notion that consensus can change is not clearly defined here. "Incel" is basically an orphan left on Celibacy's doorstep, that some in the house can't decide what to do with. Tarc (talk) 16:22, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Not include as a section, Maybe include as a sentence or part sentence. I personally wouldn't put too much weight on the AFD. Apart from a personal distaste for article content being decided in venues outside the article in question like was done here I didn't read that discussion as a strong consensus for including information. Merges can range from simple redirects to including all the information so I feel it should be up to consensus at this article to decide how much should be included. I don't like the dedicated section at all. It seems WP:Undue. However I could see a very brief mention in the "Abstinence and celibacy" section somewhere near, or part, of the abstinence mention. AIRcorn (talk) 08:27, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
  • If and when reliable sources are found this would be the place for it.Serialjoepsycho (talk) 00:48, 21 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes it should be included. The section is properly sourced and cited, and the first sentence in the lead should now read Celibacy (from Latin, cælibatus) is the state of being unmarried and/or sexually abstinent, especially by choice for usually religious reasons, because looking at most dictionary definitions, that is, what they say it is. Thank you. —JOHNMOORofMOORLAND (talk) 12:42, 1 May 2014 (UTC)

The result = Do not include. Hafspajen (talk) 13:25, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

CommentThings like "The result = Do not include." are typical of a campaign being led to have this completely removed. It's all completely against the rules and extremely. Until there is an official consensus I will undo vandalism that has nothing to do with Wikipedia standards but with people's personal agenda.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 14:45, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Include. The section is properly cited and seems notable. Handcuffed (talk) 21:48, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment - What I see here is a 7-3 in favor of exclusion. While this was never formally submitted as an RfC, I'll post at WP:AN and see what they think, whether to determine consensus from this discussion or open up something new were more editors from the outside may be interested. Tarc (talk) 15:34, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Exclude, as celibacy has to do with purposeful abstention. So-called "involuntary celibacy" is a fancy-schmancy way of saying "can't get laid". Supposing that in itself is an encyclopedic topic, there must be some more appropriate article, such as human sexuality or some such, which "involuntary celibacy" could redirect to. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:28, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Involuntary celibacy topic now moved to and covered at Denise Donnelly article[edit]

SandyGeorgia and others, take note that though the WP:AfD WP:Consensus with regard to the topic of involuntary celibacy is that the topic does not deserve its own Wikipedia article and is to merge the topic to the Celibacy article, Candleabracadabra has created the Denise Donnelly article to substantially cover the topic. Candleabracadabra moved Involuntary celibacy to Denise Donnelly. I'm not sure if Denise Donnelly passes as WP:Notable; currently, the article is almost exclusively about involuntary celibacy and can be considered a recreation of that article with different branding and structure. Its creation is likely the result of the Involuntary celibacy section having been removed from this article, per the WP:Consensus of the #Requests for comment section above. Flyer22 (talk) 15:16, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll be nominating it for deletion in a few hours time, most likely. Tarc (talk) 17:46, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Denise Donnelly containing same content as Incel. Also, it appears to be the reification of an adjective and noun into a use that has not been taken up by the psychological/medical community and thus to have an article on it is misrepresenting its acceptance. Hafspajen (talk) 13:19, 19 May 2014 (UTC)‎

Article workup[edit]

I've started a new article for this in my userspace at User:Tokyogirl79/Sandbox 2. I posted a bit on the Donnelly AfD since it's pretty clear that the AfD is ultimately about the notability (or lack thereof) for incel, as the article is mostly used as a way to discuss incel without actually having a separate article for it. I think that what I've written is neutral enough to where we could probably use that "as is" for an article if people think it's well sourced enough, but we could also merge parts of it together for a more in-depth section in the article. The big thing I've found is that the term is used in a general sense and some of the studies have looked at a wider variety of people than just persons on the Internet who cannot find a sexual partner. The term is actually supposed to be used for people who cannot have sex for other reasons such as work (remote locations, being on their own), societal taboos, or institutional rules (no sex in nursing homes and so on). Part of my biggest issue with this as a standalone article is that a lot of this somewhat copies reasons for celibacy in general, so if it is merged into the article (my preference) I think that it should state something such as "Reasons for involuntary celibacy can often encompass the same reasons for traditional celibacy such as health reasons, institutional restrictions, or strict cultural taboos and moral standards. However in the case of involuntary celibacy, the individual does not follow these rules out of a personal choice." What do you guys think? Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 06:59, 22 May 2014 (UTC)

  • I've cleaned it up some more and added more sources. The biggest issue I've run into is that while I've tried to keep from overlapping that much with celibacy, there will be some inevitable overlap. I've mostly tried to get around this by looking for things that use the specific term. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 09:29, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
First of, Tokyogirl, I admire your persistance in trying to settle this case in a way satisfactory to all parties involved. However I have a few problem with this, and these are the following:
  1. The content was deemed unfit to have its own article in a previous AfD discussion. It was determined that the article's content, in slimmed down form, was to be added as a section to another article. It was furthermore determined this other article would be the article Celibacy.
  2. The editors of the article Celibacy discussed the addition of the new content. A variety of people was unhappy over the new material being included, and several edit wars took place. Ultimately a consensus was reached and enforced by an administrator not to include the information on "incel" on the Celibacy article.
  3. A second article was created, this time on "Denise Donnelly" as a way to bypass earlier reached consensus not to include the material. No one is saying the information cannot be anywhere in Wikipedia. However the material is, per consensus, deemed unfit for a stand-alone article and cannot be included or redirected to the Celibacy page.
One alternative I have seen mentioned was to include a mention of the "incel" phenomenon on the page for sexual frustration as it seems like a more appropriate topic for the material to be in. To create a new article with the only purpose of re-including material seems unwise, and as with a possible re-creation of the involuntary celibacy article, would go against previously agreed upon consensus. I feel to either include the article in a page like sexual frustration or to not include it at all would be, at this point, the best way to go. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 09:39, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
  • My only slight problem with that is that I have found where the term has been used historically in slightly different fashions, so there's a small chance of people looking for the more historical use of the term. The term hasn't always been used in relation to sexual frustration, which I do want to say does seem to also fit the current usage of the term but it's also been used to describe people who have genuinely been restricted from sexual intercourse due to things that they couldn't control. That's kind of been the impetus for some of the re-writing I've been doing on my userspace copy because the current term doesn't entirely seem to be the way it's been traditionally used. However I do think that this could perhaps be also summed up in perhaps a "criticisms" section here- although that would need a completely new and different version than what I have here. I'm also somewhat concerned about the overall notability of involuntary celibacy being judged by the fairly lackluster version that had been previously deleted (which had very, very few sources) and the actions of a group of rather extreme individuals that came on here to defend incel itself (as opposed to trying to show notability for it). I'm not overly invested in getting this added to the mainspace, mind you, and I'm mostly OK with it getting merged into sexual frustration. It's just that I'm worried about the term as it's been used in the last 20-some years in popular culture and the term as it's been used in the past (somewhat the same in some instances, but also as a derogatory term and something that is genuinely forced upon someone). Again, not overly-overly so as I figure that this could probably be fixed with a criticism section about celibacy in general (with some mention of IC as it applies to the "you have sex and we burn your face" and "IC is abnormal and everyone in the clergy would otherwise rather have sex" types of groups) and then have a hatnote at the section top or a brief mention in the section itself that directs people to the frustration section. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 14:38, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
Then it should definitely be merged into sexual frustration. And a Lutheran priest who doesn't find a girlfriend, that is not celibacy but sexual frustration, bad looks or bad luck. Hafspajen (talk) 14:59, 22 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Hm... I would have to re-write it some. We do need to make sure that we differentiate between "true" involuntary celibacy (celibacy that is very much forced onto another person, such as an elderly person in a nursing home that strictly forbids sex or in the case of inmates who cannot access a sexual partner) and the incel movement, which could be paired more with sexual frustration. Any suggestions for phrasing? Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 07:15, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
If you haven't yet, see what I stated here about defining involuntary celibacy (my "On second thought" post); defining it mostly comes down to how one defines celibacy. Flyer22 (talk) 07:28, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
  • That's kind of the big stickler here. As I'm trying to re-write the articles, I can see why it would be better to differentiate it because the true withholding of sex in a deliberate sense (ie, fear of severe social reprisal) is not the same thing as the incel movement. (For lack of a better, more diplomatic term to differentiate it, I'll call it a movement.) I've written an new section for the IC as it'd apply strictly to the sense of people who can't have sex due to rules or health reasons, but can't because having sex would mean their death or severe bodily harm in one way or another. You can see that one here, although I have included where it was used as a derogatory term. The other version is going to take a little while to finesse. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 07:33, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
From what I see, and because of the current WP:Consensus to keep involuntary celibacy out of this article, your involuntary celibacy draft should either be added to the Sexual abstinence article (since the sources for involuntary celibacy are usually using the term celibacy to mean "sexual abstinence," as in "involuntary sexual abstinence") or it should be its own Wikipedia article. It would overwhelm the very short Sexual frustration article if added there. Also, I am taking this time to remind everyone that WP:Consensus can change; the previous WP:AfD ruling that involuntary celibacy should not be a Wikipedia article does not mean that Wikipedia can never have an article on it. Tokyogirl79's version of an Involuntary celibacy article is completely different than the previous Involuntary celibacy article; for starters, it is supported by various WP:Reliable, independent sources. Flyer22 (talk) 07:58, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Are you talking about the first draft I made (about involuntary celibacy in general) or the second draft I made about the non-incel usage of the term? Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 08:19, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
I still feel to recreate the article would bypass the previously reached outcome of the AfD and bypass the deletion. The current draft looks fine to me, appears more then properly sourced and well-written. I still believe, however, that to give the term a standalone article is a bit too much and it would be better to have it as a sub-section of another article. With the sexual frustration article being too short, the one of abstinence may be best at this point. It fits there a lot more then it does in celibacy, but to prevent future trouble I suggest informing the editors of the abstinence article on its talk page first, just to be sure. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 08:34, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Tokyogirl79, this one (Tokyogirl79/Sandbox 2) of course; I don't see that the other one, in its current state, should be a Wikipedia article. Flyer22 (talk) 08:40, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
Sorry to say but all this discussion starts to look as much original research to me. It is NOT up to uss to define things, but to stick to references. And as said before, this has not been taken up by the psychological/medical community and thus to have an article on it is misrepresenting its acceptance. And the Donnely article looks like it is going to be deleted and what is happening here goes again against broader community consensus, can't we just drop the thing? I AM TIRED about all these re-creation attempts, move THIS conversation where it belongs, to the content discussion. Hafspajen (talk) 11:57, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
I have to agree wholeheartedly with Hafspajen here. Time and time again whenever there was a large scale voting of sorts whether it be in the original AfD, the Celibacy discussion here or the current Donnelly AfD, consensus has been against inclusion and against the creation of a new article. If no proper article can be found to include the material in, perhaps it's best not to have the material on wikipedia. There is a point where it's enough. If a suitable article can still be found, of course, by all means go ahead and include the information but for re-creation of the article this is not the correct procedure and there appears to not be sufficient support for such a move among editor. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 13:08, 23 May 2014 (UTC)
  • I'm not really all that gung ho about trying to re-create the article, really. I just figured that I'd give it a whirl and see if it helps anything. My rationale behind it is mostly this: the previous version was very, very poorly created- most likely by people who are part of the incel community- and I figured that I'd try to create a better sourced version. If a better sourced version by someone who is not part of the incel community was deemed to still not pass notability guidelines on its own merits, then I figured that'd end the discussion once and for all about whether or not incel would belong on Wikipedia. That way they can't say that we didn't try everything or that we didn't try looking for sources and so on. By looking at the names on the previous AfD and discussion here, I'm fairly certain that people looked for sources, but I figured that this was at least they can't say that we didn't try or use any of the other common deletion review arguments. If the consensus here is to not include it at all or use my versions, I'm pretty OK with this. I just figured I'd give it a whirl just to say that we exhausted all possible avenues for inclusion, is all. Tokyogirl79 (。◕‿◕。) 02:32, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
I stand by what I stated above. And I again point to WP:Consensus can change. Articles are recreated all the time after having failed in a WP:AfD; this is often because the WP:AfD found the topic to be non-WP:Notable, but the topic is later found to actually be WP:Notable or later gains WP:Notability. WP:Consensus of a WP:AfD does not bar recreation of an article if the topic is found to actually be WP:Notable or later gains WP:Notability. It's clear to me why the previous Involuntary celibacy article was deleted: It was poorly sourced/structured, with medical terminology that got my fellow WP:MED editors fired up, and it looked non-WP:Notable. Wikipedia goes by policies and guidelines, or at least it is supposed to, with regard to its articles, and the version you created is WP:Notable (clearly satisfies that guideline). The topic of involuntary celibacy does not have to be taken up with the psychological/medical community for us to have a Wikipedia article on it. It is a social topic about sexual activity and identity and has been somewhat taken up by the sociological community, and has ties to the psychological community. We should not be rejecting creation of this material on personal tastes.
WP:Consensus can change states "proposing to change a recent consensus can be disruptive." Therefore, I advise you to save your draft somewhere (I will also save it), and then perhaps revisit it in a year or two (though "a year or two" can also be considered too soon) and start a WP:RfC at this talk page on whether or not the Involuntary celibacy article should be created (while pointing to your draft); I would suggest that you start it at that sandbox's talk page. But, if that sandbox and its talk page are ever deleted, there goes the documentation of the WP:RfC along with it (the only ones who will be able to see that then are WP:Administrators). Either that, or you add the topic to the Sexual abstinence article. Either way, if Wikipedia does cover involuntary celibacy, I think that the involuntary celibacy topic should briefly address the distinctions made between celibacy and sexual abstinence (even in the case of the Denise Donnelly article), like the Celibacy article does (though the Celibacy article understandably does that in more extensive detail); it should touch on the traditional way that celibacy is defined, be clear that the way the involuntary celibacy concept is defining celibacy is not the standard way that celibacy is defined, since celibacy is usually defined as voluntary. Doing this is per WP:Due weight; the majority view should be made clear even in an article about the minority view. Flyer22 (talk) 06:10, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
Note: In the close for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Denise Donnelly, Coffee also suggested a WP:RfC on the matter. But given this recent close, perhaps that WP:RfC should not be addressed until two years from now (not just a year from now). That stated, that article, just like the previous Involuntary celibacy article, seems to have been plagued by unfortunate matters, unfortunate matters that severely damaged any chance the article had of surviving the WP:AfD. I'm not sure if Coffee looked at Tokyogirl79's Involuntary celibacy draft, a draft that would clearly make for an encyclopedic article, but WP:Fringe topics are allowed space, even articles, on Wikipedia (per WP:Fringe). And if we can have a Wikipedia article on celibacy syndrome, we can certainly have one on involuntary celibacy. Either way, I don't care much about this topic, so whatever happens with it...happens. Flyer22 (talk) 17:51, 27 May 2014 (UTC)

Merger proposal[edit]

I propose that Sexual abstinence and Chastity be merged into this article, and perhaps add a section describing the etymology and varying uses of the three terms. It does not seem that they are sufficiently different to warrant three articles. As per WP:Merging#Reasons for merger, pages should be merged if "There are two or more pages on related subjects that have a large overlap. Wikipedia is not a dictionary; there does not need to be a separate entry for every concept." It's hard to argue that these three concepts don't have a large overlap.

Elizabeth Abbott, a historian of celibacy/abstinence/chastity, writes in her book A History of Celibacy (p. 3),

I also drafted a definition of celibacy that discarded the rigidly pedantic and unhelpful distinctions between celibacy, chastity, and virginity, all of which I used as key words in my research. The fact is that, despite dry, dictionary distinctions, they are, practically, synonymous. (emphasis added)

I agree with this sentiment, except that I think virginity can meaningfully be kept separate.

The reason I think the other two pages should be merged into this one is simply because this one gets more traffic according to this tool. Handcuffed (talk) 22:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

  • Oppose merging Sexual abstinence into Celibacy article, per reasons stated at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (2nd nomination) when editors were trying to decide whether or not to merge Involuntary celibacy into this article. As made clear in that WP:AfD debate, and in the Celibacy article, celibacy is far more associated with religious beliefs than sexual abstinence is. Though the terms celibacy and sexual abstinence are often used interchangeably, they are often distinguished as well. When medical sources and similar sources are speaking of sex education and safe sex, the term sexual abstinence, not celibacy, is usually used to indicate the choice to abstain from sexual activity. The Celibacy article is big enough as it is, and the term sexual abstinence is WP:Notable enough in its own right to warrant its own article. Because of how these two terms are often distinguished, celibacy is more so an aspect of sexual abstinence rather than vice versa. These two Wikipedia articles existing is appropriate WP:Content forking. As for the Chastity article: The term chastity is as wrapped up in religious beliefs as the term celibacy is, as indicated by the Chastity article, so it may be fine to merge it into the Celibacy article. But notice that the lead of the Chastity article currently states, "In the Western world, the term has become closely associated (and is often used interchangeably) with sexual abstinence, especially before marriage." So that is also an argument for merging it into the Sexual abstinence article; however, if the term chastity is not as associated with the term sexual abstinence outside of the Western world, it would be a form of WP:Systematic bias to give the Western usage of the term special weight and merge the Chastity article into the Sexual abstinence article. I'm not sure about merging the Chastity article; it's a historical term that came to refer to the chastity of girls and women more than the chastity of boys and men. Flyer22 (talk) 23:01, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. We have enough problem as it is to keep concepts clean. Hafspajen (talk) 23:37, 4 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Like the two other editors above, addionally: Chastity is not necessarily the same thing as sexual abstinence. At least the concept of the RCC of chastity includes sexual relationships between married couples. There will be a helluba of problems when merging chastity/sexual abstinence/celibacy against that background. And: why? There is enough stuff to write on any of this topics.--Turris Davidica (talk) 08:56, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment Just because some obscure person at some less known university came up with some results on something that got deleted and unfortunatelly merged here - plus a woman who wrote a book, where she says that she is NOT using the word as the dictionary does, but in a different way. We just simply can't change the encyclopedia and the general common use of those words because of two atypical sources. Hafspajen (talk) 09:49, 6 May 2014 (UTC)
  • Oppose merger -- "Sexual abstinence" is a technical term referring to genital activity, while "Chastity" is a traditional moral/religious virtue and state of mind, while "Celibacy" is basically the state of not being married. I fail to see how obscuring these distinctions would give a useful result... AnonMoos (talk) 15:19, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Removed the top-of-article tagging, since the merge proposal has clearly failed at this point (as far as the discussions of the last three weeks are concerned). AnonMoos (talk) 09:50, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

  • Expand each topic, not merge. The disputed topic seems to be real,and appropriate for an article.Reading over the material at the various locations, I am rather puzzled why it was regarded as fringe in the first place. There seems over the years to have been a consistent effort to remove all serious discussion of less usual forms of sexuality from WP; we seem much more comfortable discussing pornography. It makes an odd mixture. DGG ( talk ) 02:54, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
DGG, the above merger proposal is not about involuntary celibacy. Flyer22 (talk) 16:23, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

Feminism[edit]

The feminist group Cell 16, founded in 1968 by Roxanne Dunbar, was known for its program of celibacy and separation from men, among other things. [1][2] Considered too extreme by many mainstream feminists, the organization acted as a sort of hard left vanguard.[3] It has been cited as the first organization to advance the concept of separatist feminism.[2][4] In No More Fun and Games, the organization's radical feminist periodical, Cell Members Roxanne Dunbar and Lisa Leghorn advised women to "separate from men who are not consciously working for female liberation"

Moved all this into article Feminism. This is the theoretical foundation for lesbian separatism, and has nothing to do with this article. Stop adding it here. Hafspajen (talk) 13:28, 7 July 2014 (UTC).

Ok, but the article Feminism deleted it. Maranjosie (talk) 13:15, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

Did they? Blast. Why? Hafspajen (talk) 13:20, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

The comment by the person who removed it was "Rv recent edits on celibacy as WP:BRD; seems quite UNDUE and FRINGE" 71.175.26.106 (talk) 13:32, 9 July 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ Bevacqua, Maria. Rape on the Public Agenda: Feminism and the Politics of Sexual Assault (2000) ISBN 1-55553-446-5
  2. ^ a b Echols, Alice. Daring to Be Bad: Radical Feminism in America, 1967-75, University of Minnesota Press, 1990, ISBN 0-8166-1787-2, p164
  3. ^ Heath and Potter. Feminism For Sale. This Magazine (2005) [13]
  4. ^ Saulnier, Christine F. Feminist Theories and Social Work: Approaches and Applications (1996) ISBN 1-56024-945-5