Talk:Celibacy

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Redirect[edit]

The article homosexual celibacy redirects to this page, but this page lacks any mention of celibacy due to reasons involving sexual or gender identity, nor anything of that nature. While it probably can fall into reasons for celibacy, it could potentially be an additional section; I have therefore added an request for expansion. (And please don't suggest that it should go into the homosexuality article instead - that thing is huge already!) - Heartofgoldfish 15:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Not my area, but I'll consider it.--T. Anthony 15:57, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Catholic priests[edit]

Italic textI'd like to add something about Catholic priests, in terms of both celibacy and chastity. In particular, let's address the issue of homosexual priests. Since Catholicism does not deem homosexality itself sinful, a homosexual ought to be able to take the same vow of chastity (or celibacy?) as any other priest. Is this correct? Ed Poor

Yes -Ben

Not exactly. The recent Vatican document argues that celibacy in the sense of priestly celibacy is not a gift to someone who is homosexual and uninterested in marriage.

By the way, the old articles on celibacy and chastity were identical with the last paragraph of the Holy Orders article.


This looks like as good a place as any to put this:

The Catholic and Orthodox churches holds themselves to Canon 6 of the Council of Trullo in 692, which reads as follows:

"Since it is declared in the apostolic canons that of those who are advanced to the clergy unmarried, only lectors and cantors are able to marry; we also, maintaining this, determine that henceforth it is in nowise lawful for any subdeacon, deacon or presbyter after his ordination to contract matrimony but if he shall have dared to do so, let him be deposed. And if any of those who enter the clergy, wishes to be joined to a wife in lawful marriage before he is ordained subdeacon, deacon, or presbyter, let it be done." -Ben Brumfield

Two points: 1. it's the Council IN Trullo rather than OF. The Trullo was a part of the imperial palace at Constantinople, so it is like referring to the Capitol in our nation's Capital, or like the legislative affairs column in a state-capital newspaper being called "Under the Dome." Indeed, I think 'Trullo' may be a version of 'vault' or 'dome'. 2. The Latin Church did not accept the disciplinary canons of the Council in Trullo. Western rules on celibacy do not base themselves on that council (which also prohibited representations of Christ as a Lamb [Lamb of God] - one of the first signs of the coming Iconoclastic controversy). The rules for the non-Latin rites of the Catholic Church are actually separate (with their own ocde of canon law). MichaelTinkler

Original meaning[edit]

"The old meaning of this term was "to have sexual intercourse only with one's wife".

Anybody got a source on the "the original meaning of celibacy" quote? The author seems to be describing what's sometimes referred to as "continence". -Ben Brumfield

Exactly. Leaving aside the fact that celibacy is a noun and "to have sexual intercourse only with one's wife" is a verb, I've checked OED and there's no evidence for any such meaning. The original sense was "unmarried" and the current one is "not having sex". Deleted that sentence. Flapdragon 6 July 2005 22:30 (UTC)

"To have sexual intercourse only with one's wife" is an infinitive phrase, which serves perfecly well as a noun phrase, as in "To have sexual intercourse only with one's wife is a worse fate than reading Wikipedia." The original sense was "unmarried", and the current sense is "unmarried"; the sense "not having sex" is used out of ignorance by people unfamiliar both with the word "celibacy" and the term "sexually abstinent". The manner in which this article vacillates between these senses without any apparent clue that two senses even exist, or that one of them is colloquial and very recent, is clear warning that this article, frankly, sucks. 71.126.140.52 (talk) 06:10, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

This is a response to Ed poor's post.

I believe that if you take a vow of chastisy you should keep it. It doesn't matter if you are homosexual or heterosexual. There have been a lot of things in the news about Priests sleeping with boys because "It is not against the doctrine" This kinda makes me mad. (Gothsrus (talk) 16:26, 19 February 2009 (UTC))

List of famous celibates?[edit]

I wonder if this article could benefit from a "list of famous celibate people", like the "list of famous..." in other articles such as the one about homosexuality. A rather famous celibate is Paul Erdös, and Friedrich Nietzsche was also one by some accounts.

  • Friedrich Nietzsche died of Syphilis, now: where could he have contracted that as a celibatarian? Kraxler 16:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Good idea.

I will add a list of notable celibates to the article. One I can think of is Anne Widdecombe. Walton monarchist89 17:11, 15 January 2007 (UTC)
  • I could have sworn I saw something on TV that said Kyle Brady was celibate, but considering his article says he is married and has a son, that doesn't appear to be correct. Recury 16:33, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Thank you for resonding for my call to assistance, AdelaMae and Hideouslywrinkled. Unfortunately, there were some mistakes. The Reformers did not give alternative interpretations of verses cited in favor of celibacy. hey cited verses they thought were against it, and their reasoning belongs in the Humor section (read the verses they cited). If it was people outside the Church thinking married priesthood was a solution, it would not even be mentioned (Catholics do not tell Muslims what colors they should paint their mosques to attract converts). Unfortunately, this opinion is held by many high-rank officials in the Church (but note: the insincere ones). And, as I said previously, "The sectors of the Church where vocations are the highest are those where the Church's teachings are followed, and the sectors where these teachings are not followed have the lowest." The data DOES exist, but I need to find it.JBogdan 15:44, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Main reason for celibacy?[edit]

Am I missing a vital piece of context for the "Reasons for celibacy" section of this article? It seems to me that the most obvious reason for celibacy, and one I would like to add to the list, is:

  • An inability to obtain a willing sexual partner, due to social awkwardness or anxiety, physical or mental handicap, or lack of physical attractiveness and/or financial resources.

Blackworm 01:53, 1 May 2006 (UTC)

Consider it done. Chris Henniker 16:26, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Original research. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.100.228.106 (talk) 12:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like common sense. If you can't get something, you can't have it.--MartinUK (talk) 18:56, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Merge this with 'clerical celibacy'?[edit]

I think this page should be merged with the entry about 'clerical celibacy'. While the content is partly the same, the entry for 'clerical celibacy' is more detailed, better structured and less biased. I stumbled upon the 'celibacy' entry when I wanted to find out something about the history of celibacy in the catholic church, but all I found was a biased argument why celibacy is a good thing and why all who say otherwise are 'insincere', 'uninformed' or 'humourous' (luckily, the latter two terms have been edited out). Even the external links don't provide information, but only propaganda for clerical celibacy. As you see, I think the 'clerical celibacy' entry is far superiour and this one should link to the other.

I agree. An article on "celibacy" that doesn't include clerics is fairly meaningless. Why would anyone care? Merge. A link to "clerical celibacy" is okay in the short run, but merge and delete this article long term. -student- 11/5/06

Other traditions following celibacy[edit]

I have added some reference to celebacy being practiced in both Hindu and Buddhist traditions. Certainly it is not only practiced within the Christian world - maybe people could expand these areas in order to make the article more 'global' in it's focus. How is it seen in different countries and cultures around the world? 82.163.63.228 15:19, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Proposed infobox for individual birth control method articles[edit]

Let's all work on reaching a consensus for a new infobox to be placed on each individual birth control method's article. I've created one to start with on the Wikipedia Proposed Infoboxes page, so go check it out and get involved in the process. MamaGeek (Talk/Contrib) 12:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Why Musical Linguist is downgrading the Wikipedia by deleting contributions?[edit]

I recently added a section about History of Celibacy. My additions showed when and who started the tradition of celibacy in Catholic Church.

Why Musical Linguist deleted them?

In my opinion he is downgrading Wikipedia by selectively editing chosen articles to enforce his agenda. The discussion about his other contribution clearly show that.

Please, let the moderator show his clear view and ban Musical Linguist from constant misediting wikipedia pages.

Thank you. User:83.19.104.34

Why did she do it? - Because your edits were downgrading WP by adding false information.

  • Clerics (or laypeople) were never allowed by canon law to have concubines. Concubines are "unlawful" by definition.
  • Clerics were allowed to keep wives married before their ordination - in the Latin Rite up to the 11th century - in the Eastern Rites until today.
  • Clerics were never allowed to marry, only allowed to retain their wives, albeit under certain restrictions.
  • The ordinance of Pelagius I, if he issued such a thing, has nothing to do with marriages. It merely protects Church property and reiterates something that should be obvious to any moral person, Christian or not.
  • There is no doubt that many clerics had, in spite of canon law and morality, concubines and hence there are also reiterations of the ban, e.g. by Pope Benedict VIII.
  • The property question certainly has a part in the 11th century implementation of general celibacy, but you are overdoing it. Spiritual reasons were much more prevalent, as many believers demanded to have celibate priests.

Good day, Str1977 (smile back) 09:49, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Religious/clerical celibacy[edit]

I would suggest the whole section on religious celibacy is too focused on the Catholic church. Of course it is a major topic of debate and interest within that Church, but surely the subject of the Catholic view of celibacy should be a subset (albeit a substantial one) of a general heading on celibacy due to religious belief, since practitioners of other variants of Christendom (and of other faiths) may also choose celibacy because of their beliefs. 82.153.129.223 23:54, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

There's a seperate article on clerical celibacy that I think it would be better for this article to refer users to who are interested in that aspect of celibacy. The whole article needs a re0write and I've started to do a bit of a literature search (this not being my field, it takes days at the library which are few and far between :-). From what I've seen so far, we should have 4 sections on the "whys": religious belief and practice, physical/biological causes; social reasons (including involuntary celibacy); and cultural forces. There has been a request to cover homosexual celibacy (and the article homosexual celibacy points to this article), but from my search so far, homosexual celibacy doesn't seem to be rooted in anything different from hetrosexual celibacy. So I was thinking of incorporating homosexual perspectives throughout the article rather than having a seperate section. --SiobhanHansa 00:55, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The article is not that large. How much of it do you want to devote to homosexual celibacy? Is it really that important of a subset? (The figures I've seen indicate it might be overrepresented, but it'd still only be around 15%)--T. Anthony 04:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
I wasn't thinking it would be a huge bit, more that it would make it clear that (for the most part) reasons for celibacy, and approaches for handling it, were not related to sexual orientation. I'm still reading up on this, so I'm not clear how I'd do it. Feel free to edit yourself :-) --SiobhanHansa 13:14, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Lopsided views[edit]

This article is very lopsided; more than half of it touches on the Christian aspect of celibacy. The practical and secular forms of celibacy (such as the involuntary celibacy experienced by professed nerds) are mentioned in the opening, but largely ignored by the rest of the article. Even the section which deals with reasons for celibacy makes a highly biased statement on celibacy by quoting the Apostle Paul verbatim at the end. I'm not sure how we could rebalance the article, because celibacy is usually associated with religion in the first place, but a good start might be to focus more on celibacy in non-Christian religions and the secular celibate. Johnleemk | Talk 17:08, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

"Nerdish celibacy" is not historically significant or studied enough to matter that much. Although there has been activists of a secular nature who decided to be celibate in order to devote more time to their respective movements. That was more true in the nineteenth century, and earlier, as sex then was more likely to lead to children. I believe several of the early feminists were celibate. And it might be too focused on Christians specifically Catholics. There have been Protestant celibates and among the Religious Society of Friends I think "spinster celibates" were not too unusual. I remember reading something on a Quaker site about them considering celibacy to be one among many sexual options a person may choose. There could maybe be a bit more on people on the autistic spectrum, as well as other conditions, as there are conditions/disabilities that are disproportionately celibate. I believe some autists find sex unpleasant or even disorienting because of neurological factors. Also I think a bit more on celibacy in Dharmic religions could be helpful.--T. Anthony 09:35, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I think the Shakers (distinct from the Quakers) should also be mentioned. They have practically died out as a sect because of celibacy and a failure to win converts. Ranthlee 23:38, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup[edit]

This article needs a lot of cleanup. I made a start, but a lot more needs to be done. Here's what I see:

  • References: Still need 'em, especially in the light of creeping OR and POV. Perhaps some of the "External links" could be converted to references.
  • Roman Catholic clerical celibacy: A lot of this text should be removed, or moved to other articles. (Clerical celibacy, Clerical celibacy (Catholic Church), Roman Catholic sex abuse cases, etc.)
  • Secular celibacy: A lot more information about secular aspects of celibacy would help. Are there organizations or notable manifestos promoting secular celibacy? What about the historical view of the risks of celibacy (e.g green sickness)?

--Shunpiker 17:06, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

New Page from this one or references for this page?[edit]

Just an idea, but can the medical opinions from this site be made into a new page for "Health Benefits of Celibacy"? www.semenloss.com There are many citations from doctors. Unfornuately some of the sources are only from the work of Dr. Bernard. But many of the sources are from the original author's directly. As108 02:04, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Picture suggestion[edit]

This article lacks pictures. How about someone introducing a picture of a couple not engaging in sexual behavior before marriage. Perhaps a shot of people walking down a street, eating some ice-cream or having sexual intercourse. Oops - not that one :-) - Bennyboyz3000 07:09, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Islam section[edit]

I have added the Islam section, with myself being a muslim and already knowing alot about celibacy in Islam.

I have researched alot about it before putting the info in, and have tried to make it as neutral as possible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.25.71 (talk) 18:11, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

Why were two celibate people removed?[edit]

I added two very well known celibates, Jessica Simpson (took a vow of celibacy at 12 and remain a virgin until her marriage to Nick Lashey) and Britney Spears (famous for her celibacy as a teen) and they were removed without reason. Apparently these were not celibates as they were in their young 20s. I don't believe to be any sort of valid reason for a vow of celibacy to be valid, especially considering Jessica and Britney took a "vow of Celibacy" which is what the article is all about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbx118 (talkcontribs) 15:46, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that these are cases covered by celibacy as it is discussed in this article. In the lede we define a vow of celibacy as a promise not to enter into marriage or engage in sexual intercourse (my emphasis). These two cases are more virginity pledges than vows of celibacy. -- SiobhanHansa 20:00, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Celibacy is defined as referring to be being either unmarried or to sexual abstinence., the cases mentioned cover both in this instance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bbx118 (talkcontribs) 15:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

You're reading that as an either one or the other case, but by that reasoning anyone who has sex but isn't married is celibate, which isn't what this article intends. I also think the two cases are much clearer examples of virginity pledges than celibacy. The list is, to be fair, a huge mess anyway, and it's not as though I think these are the only two poor inclusions. -- SiobhanHansa 14:06, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Siobhan - I can surely confirm that no, I'm not reading that as an either one or the other case, I'm using the exact definition given. Jessica Simpson in her case took a vow of celibacy, it doesn't get any clearer or more defined than that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.81.125 (talk) 22:27, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

So you're using the idea that every person who is unmarried and is not currently engaging in sex is celibate and from that any star who has ever said that they are (or were once) unmarried and not engaging in sex is a notable celibate?
BTW the source you provided for Simpson does not mention a vow of celibacy - in fact it doesn't include the word celibacy or celibate, nor does it say she in anyway said she would refrain from marrying. It says she took a vow of chastity and that she envisioned wedlock as a fairy tale where she would remain a virgin for her husband which indicates that her vow of chastity did not include a conscious decision to refrain from marriage. I'm just pointing out that these are nuanced terms and you seem to be treating virginity, chastity and celibacy as interchangeable. -- SiobhanHansa 03:23, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I am removing again the names of actress Jessica Simpson and Britney Spears a very-well know whore. Get married as a virgin do not implies celibacy. My grandmother and my mother and millions of peoples engaged in their weddings in virgin state, due this was be a cultural ethics. Don't be stupid your moron. Rodrigo Zauli —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.62.161.228 (talk) 14:27, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

To the Wikipedia Team: Can we discard the above immature comments? I've re-applied the names Britney Spears and Jessica Simpson. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.79.81.125 (talk) 22:24, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with discarding the stupid/moron comment, though I think the rest of what he said was fine. How about having 2 separate sublists? One list could be for people who are permanently celibate, and the other list could be for people who are only waiting for marriage. Both categories are worth mentioning, but I think they should be separate. There's a big difference between someone who never has sex and someone who only has sex while married. --cowgod14 26 June 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 16:31, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Anyone who's over about 30 and is still a virgin is unusual in most societies today, but choosing to remain a virgin until marriage is not as unusual as the media might make you think. Some might slip from it if love takes a while to happen, or subsequently become keen on sex as seperate from love, but those who remain celibate because Mr/Mrs Right doesn't come along and they won't settle for Mr/Mrs Right Now are notable.--MartinUK (talk) 18:45, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

POV tag[edit]

I'm doing POV tag cleanup. Whenever an POV tag is placed, it is necessary to also post a message in the discussion section stating clearly why it is thought the article does not comply with POV guidelines, and suggestions for how to improve it. This permits discussion and consensus among editors. This is a drive-by tag, which is discouraged in WP, and it shall be removed. Future tags should have discussion posted as to why the tag was placed, and how the topic might be improved. Better yet, edit the topic yourself with the improvements. This statement is not a judgement of content, it is only a cleanup of frivolously and/or arbitrarily placed tags. No discussion, no tag.Jjdon (talk) 17:46, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I have edited one of the reasons for celibacy[edit]

The article read like this "An inability to find a sexual partner that one finds acceptable or tolerable" with a link to involuntary Celibacy. Involuntary Celibacy is if a person is unable to find a sexual partner. If one can find a sexual partner but refuse their Celibacy is not Involuntary it is due to their choice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Chris smith jones (talkcontribs) 16:36, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

A reason for celibacy?[edit]

I was reading this article and I noticed that one possible reason for celibacy is missing. It is the reason I have chosen to become a celibate: I have a mental disorder that many people are trying to cure (I won't mention which one because it's not relevant in this context), and I have become a celibate so that I cannot have children and therefore cannot contribute to the continuation of this mental disorder's gene.

What I'm saying is, do enough people become celibates for the reason that they cannot reproduce and therefore not give their unborn children undesirable genetic qualities (like defects, mental disorders, ect.)? If so, would this be worth putting on this article? Pippin the Mercury (talk) 00:21, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

I think that would be a good thing to add, but you've got to find an article or something that mentions this so that you have a citation. Cowgod14 (talk) 21:21, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

I changed the definition[edit]

The article insisted that celibacy means not being married and insisted that is wasn't about not having sex. It said that not having sex was "chastity." However, that's not what the page on chastity said. This definition of celibacy goes against how the word is used in the rest of the article and how it is used generally. I changed the definition to "not having sex," and included the less common meaning (that is still in dictionaries, though I've never heard the word used that way) at the end of the introduction. A good discussion of celibacy can be found on http://www.answers.com/celibacy/. Another interesting discussion can be found an article that examines how the word celibacy is used: http://asexystuff.blogspot.com/2008/09/what-is-celibacy.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.126.131.113 (talk) 00:27, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Celibacy is not the same as chastity. To be celibate is to be unmarried. To be chaste is to not have sexual intercourse. (Oxford Universal Dictionary Third Edition: Celibacy - The state of living unmarried. Celibate - Unmarried, single, bound not to marry.) A person can be celibate and still have sex. Lettwoman70

Lettwoman70 is correct. Celibacy refers to ones state in regards to marriage. It does not mean "doesnt't have sex" To my limited knowlege there is no such word in English. The word is associted with that definition because in the Judeo/Christian tradition the married state is the only state in which sexual intercourse is acceptable. Even chastity refers to being true to ones married or unmarried state. Therefore, if one is married one may be said to be chaste if one only has sexual intercourse with one's spouse. I do however recognize that the "no sex" definition may be the more prevalent but this work is supposed to show the facts not what is commonly belived. I changed the definition to reflect this.--Kjrjr (talk) 18:51, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I absolutely agree and I challenge the person who changed the definition to... 'or not having sex' to find any reference to celibacy meaning 'not having sex' previous to Paris Hilton making the vow in the early 2000s. When Hollywood types like Paris Hilton wanted to make vows against having sex, they mistakenly (or on purpose) used the term for a vow of being unmarried 'celibacy' - because it sounds strange. Had she used the correct term like 'chastity', 'continence' or 'abstinence', she would've been saying 'I'm done being a slut for awhile.' PLEASE let's not have Hollywood morons inform our language! If Paris Hilton had said that she had taken a vow of 'Apocalypse' and other idiots followed her lead - would that be the new definition of Apocalypse? Here is a history of celibacy. You will see that the entire focus is 'marriage' not 'sex'. http://www.christendom-awake.org/pages/mcgovern/celhist1.html

Here's the Encyclopedia Britannica: http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/101371/celibacy

"Celibacy, the state of being unmarried and, therefore, sexually abstinent, usually in association with the role of a religious official or devotee. In its narrow sense, the term is applied only to those for whom the unmarried state is the result of a sacred vow, act of renunciation, or religious conviction. Celibacy has existed in one form or another throughout history and in virtually all the major religions of the world."

Please change it back to the CORRECT definition: 'The state of being unmarried'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.135.82.44 (talk) 18:38, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Possible copyvio[edit]

Hi. Please see the article history. I removed text added by User_talk:64.252.184.216 which seemed to be a copyright violation from http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1906063,00.html - unless of course Time borrowed it from Wikipedia in the first place? DBaK (talk) 15:47, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Essay from User:Prithviraj chouhan[edit]

Hi. Please see the article history. I removed what appeared to be a long and not entirely encyclopaedic essay from User:Prithviraj chouhan. Please feel free to discuss it here if you think it should be in. Thanks DBaK (talk) 15:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Celibacy on the Buddhist religion is missing[edit]

I am not pro Buddhist but since the monastic tradition of Buddhism whether Mahayana or Theravada practiced celibacy for men & women for thousands of years is a good reason to add the Buddhist religion as one of the advocates of celibacy today.--121.54.68.114 (talk) 12:40, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Catholic Church[edit]

I have studied the Scriptures at length, and have failed to find the ancient tradition spoke of in this section. I also have found that the reference of "The Resurrection" spoken of by the Messiah may be taken out of context. If you read (it isn't hard to do) you will find that the resurrection is BEFORE judgment, when the Bride of The Elohim is chosen. After Judgment, they will be The Elohim's Bride, in Marriage.

I have also found, that there seems to be an inconsistency with the whole sentence that contains the phrase "celibacy is not a doctrine of the Church but a church rule or discipline." I would like some elaboration and explanation on this, as I thought (as written in Doctrine), a doctrine is a church rule, law, or discipline (systematic instruction given to a disciple. i.e. an instruction) which fits into "a body of teachings" or "instructions", as noted by Doctrine, as well as the fact that each of these "Church Rules" vary from system to system, they could even fit "as the body of teachings in a branch of knowledge or belief system."

One more thing... I would love to see the passage in the Scriptures that allow the Church to go ahead and Override the Elohim's laws, change the festivals, change the day of rest/worship, and create these "new laws."

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.238.149.253 (talk) 20:15, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Hi,

I just skimmed through the article. I didn't read the resurrection bit so I'll leave that.

However the discipline vs doctrine question I can probably assist with. I believe what that is expressing is that Catholics don't believe that God requires priests to be celibate. So in that sense it isn't a doctrine. However there was a long history of problems with the call to live as eunuchs for the sake of the Kingdom of heaven and the rule attempts to address that. Now I haven't looked at the definitions so you might be right but that is the distinction intended when the terms are used (misused).

You obviously like studying the scriptures at length so I invite you to focus on the New Testament to get the answer to your subsequent questions. Skip past the gospels and you will be getting warm. Since you don't use the term Jehovah can I assume you are a seventh day adventist or are you from a smaller group? Most Christians consider it licit to celebrate Christmas, have the Lord's day as our sabbath and organise housekeeping within the Church. If adventists are anything like their JW offshoots your Bible might be tweaked for your belief system. If so you might not find the stuff and I apologise for sending you on a wild goose chase. Yeenar (talk) 01:57, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

We read that "In the Roman Catholic Church the apostles were considered the first priests and bishops in the Church and the call to be eunuchs in Matthew 19 referred to above is considered to be a call to be sexually continent. This developed into mandatory celibacy for priests who are believed to be the successors of the apostles." I believe that mandatory celibacy is the order of the day in the RC Church so why is the RC Church state of affairs re this topic not removed from the 'Celebicy' section and instead posted in the Involuntary celibacy section?Eog1916 (talk) 06:52, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

Because you won't be ordained to priesthood involuntarily.--Turris Davidica (talk) 09:32, 25 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the Eog comment above. Who is to say that RC priest celibacy is voluntary or involuntary? By saying that the article on "Celibacy" refers to only voluntary celibates and inserting the RC priesthood under this, Wiki seems to be assuming that priests freely choose celibacy not just before ordination but throughout their priesthood. In fact, I know of many priests who left active clerical ministry because they struggled for years as involuntary celibate priests. Can we please improve on this asap; it is highly problematic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.96.7.124 (talk) 22:57, 16 August 2011 (UTC)

Needs coverage of health implications[edit]

This article really should cover the health implications of celibacy. It kind of glosses over the health disadvantages. Zodon (talk) 09:26, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

They're really health implications of sexual abstinence rather than celibacy, so they're discussed at Sexual abstinence#Possible physical effects. Pais (talk) 09:37, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Suggest merging all celibacy entries[edit]

Currently there is an "involuntary celibacy" entry that exceeds the length of this main celibacy entry. By combining entries the main points will be sorted out and lead down the line to stronger interconnected pages on the topic. For now, there appears to be some pages with social focus, others with psychological, some with heavy opinion statements, etc. This main celibacy page is the correct venue to sort through content and potential wikipedia policy violations (98.218.218.120 (talk) 05:17, 30 October 2010 (UTC)).

Introduction that created dispute[edit]

Please correct my point of view if I'm wrong, but I think that the key of celibacy is to avoid civil unions and sexual relationships (not intercourse!). And "abstention from sexual relationships" is correct, but not intercourse.

Maybe it never was. Maybe I'm just dumb. So... just note that. Thank you,184.163.123.4 (talk) 02:45, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

No, celibacy means abstaining from sexual intercourse or other carnal pleasures. in most religions, this is tantamount to abstaining from marriage (since few if any religions condone sexuality outside of marriage), but the key element is maintaining physical purity. Note that religions often talk about the importance of celibacy prior to marriage (strict Catholic diocese, for instance, will insist that couples remain celibate during their engagement, and technically are supposed to refuse to marry couples that don't). Full celibacy (such as those that Catholic priests and nuns and Buddhist monks undertake) also prohibits marriage, but not because of the marriage itself: Priests and nuns are doctrinally married to Christ, and Buddhists surrender all worldly cravings. --Ludwigs2 05:11, 19 December 2010 (UTC)
Definitions can be confusing, and celibacy is sometimes defined as abstaining from marriage. But as Ludwigs2 suggests, I think that definition stems from the days when "marriage" and "a relationship involving sexual intercourse" were effectively synonyms - and by remaining unmarried, that was effectively saying one was abstaining from sexual intercourse. Today, many people have active sex lives without marrying - but I really don't think anyone would consider that to be celibacy. And to add something to the Buddhist monk thing, in my wife's native Thailand, it's fairly common for married men to become monks for a temporary period - they are required to be celibate during that time, but that means abstaining from sexual intercourse, not getting a divorce. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 14:04, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Socio-sexual activity at a distance[edit]

Are people who engage in sexual activity with others at a distance, such as cybersex, sexting and phone sex regarded as celibate if they don't engage in any sexual activity in person with anyone? Does sex chat etc with someone who is miles away from the person mean that the person is not celibate, or does a person have to have actual sex to be not considered celibate? How about a person who chooses to take part in mutual masturbation whilst in the same room with someone, but chooses to never have intercourse - is he celibate? The article should state where the line is drawn to define the threshold of where celibacy begins and ends. 188.28.227.101 (talk) 18:04, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Dada Bhagwan – The Science of Celibacy[edit]

Practice of Celibacy There are two things in this world that one should not waste, One is money and the other is semen. Money should not be misused and one should practice Celibacy as much as possible. The ultimate extract of our nourishment is semen and it is dissipated and lost in sex. There are certain nerves in the body that help preserve semen and this in turn protects the body. Therefore, Celibacy should be preserved as much as possible.[38]

Celibacy (Brahmacharya) is the life force of the body (non-self). The ultimate essence of the food we eat and drink is Celibacy. If this essence, Celibacy disappears, then the foundation of the relative self to the Pure Self becomes unstable and loose. And then the exact experience and attainment of the Self becomes very difficult. Therefore, Celibacy is a critical spiritual practice. There is no end to bliss if there is Gnan (Knowledge of the Self) on one side and Celibacy on the other. Then it brings about an unbelievable change. It is because Celibacy is the life force and the essence of the body.[39]

Celibacy should be practiced with understanding. If the fruit of Celibacy is not moksha (Liberation) then,Celibacy is like castration. It will make the body good, strong, and good looking and would live longer. Even a bull becomes strong and healthy.[40]

[edit] The Keys to Practice Celibacy by Dada Bhagwan

• Unflinching determination to practice Celibacy with the support of Dada’s Science. Dada Bhagwan has shown a way to practice Celibacy; one should have the deep inner intent and second the person’s unflinching determination to do so.[41]

• 3 Vision - stops Sexual Vision: Dada Bhagwan’s three vision is exceptional and is a very powerful tool to help conquer Sexual Vision - the first vision is to see him/her without clothes, the second Vision awareness arises when the body is without the Skin and the third Vision is seeing the intestines, the kind the person sees when the stomach is cut open. Visualize the changes that occur within the intestines, see the blood vessels, fecal matter. This will stop sexual impulse arising.[42]

• True Repentance and Introspection to help overcome Sexual Thoughts in Akram Science, this is a practical day to day medicine that helps the person to overcome Sexual thoughts and desires. By doing repentance the person is washing away their thoughts or desires which occurred earlier and that helps further, next time the thoughts become weaker so it’s easier to deal with the situation in front of the person. If the has a thought of Sexuality, if the person throws away the thought within two seconds, then the thought completely disappear.[43]

• The Keys of Celibacy for Married People, This science of Celibacy will liberate anyone, and is applicable to even married people. It is ignorance of the Self that is the obstruction.[44]

• Exclusive Nature Of Celibacy In Akram Science, If the person takes the Knowledge of the Self through the Self Realization process, then to practice Celibacy would be very easy. [45] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vorajinesh (talkcontribs) 10:15, 22 August 2012 (UTC) Vorajinesh (talk) 10:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Two problems. This is all based on primary sources. And the author's reliablility and usefulness is recognized by no own outside of his small, fringe religious community. Independent mainstream scholars have not discussed this seiously and in depth. It therefore violates both WP:RS and WP:WEIGHT. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 11:21, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Celibacy and sexual abstinence[edit]

Refererring to this [1] changement: The same IP has repeatedly changed the reasoned and much more detailed statement that celibacy and sexual abstinence are not the same to the meaning that they are the same. Please note: the former statement has been mutally referenced, amongst others by specialist literature.--Turris Davidica (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

For the sake of clarity, "repeatedly" means twice. This is also the number of times my changes have been undone by Turris.

First, what is claimed above is false. I did not write that abstinence and celibacy are the same. I wrote that they are similar, but subtly different, reference two online dictionary sources. Here they are for your consideration:

cel·i·ba·cy   [sel-uh-buh-see]

1.abstention from sexual relations.

2.abstention by vow from marriage: the celibacy of priests.

3.the state of being unmarried.

(Dictionary.com)


1: the state of not being married

2a: abstention from sexual intercourse b: abstention by vow from marriage

(Merriam Webster)

As can be easily understood from these two independent sources in agreement, "celibacy" refers either to the state of being unmarried or is defined as a subtype of abstinence.

Second, the use of Gabrielle Brown's book is highly inappropriate. It is an opinion and self-help type book, not a reference for defining words. The phrase referenced is "abstinence is a response on the outside to what's going on, and celibacy is a response from the inside". The definition provided, then is "celibacy is a response from the inside" (inside of what? what kind of response? a response to what?) This definition is inaccurate and false.

I don't know if Turris is attempting to change the definition of celibacy or to sell Gabrielle Brown's book, but this section needs to be fixed. You can't have a reasonable discussion of a word without first defining the word accurately. 75.65.34.19 (talk) 00:40, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

External links[edit]

Previously I removed these two links from the article. They were put back in with the request to explain my objections against them:

See WP:ELYES: What can normally be linked. Number 1 and 2 clearly do not apply. Point 3 says: "Sites that contain neutral and accurate material that is relevant to an encyclopedic understanding of the subject and cannot be integrated into the Wikipedia article ..."
The links that were added are in no way neutral. They reflect a spiritual teacher's point of view. In spite of the name, there is nothing scientific in the second link "Celibacy with Scientific Understanding". These are "just" teachings. I mean, in which peer-reviewed journal has this "scientific understanding" been published?

See also WP:ELNO: Links normally to be avoided. Number 4: Links mainly intended to promote a website. The last week or so, these Dada Bhagwan links have showed up at different places in Wikipedia, and you've probably noticed that I have removed a lot of them. I understand that you probably feel deeply about Dada Bhagwan but Wikipedia is not the place to promote him.
Namaste, Lova Falk talk 13:37, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Psychological/Evolutionary Explanation?[edit]

I think we should cover the psychological and/or evolutionary explanation for this behaviour. I'm sure someone must have covered it.. --IronMaidenRocks (talk) 03:36, 27 June 2013 (UTC)

Incel[edit]

Should "incel" really redirect here? It is one thing to redirect the full term "involuntary celibacy" here, but "incel" does not appear to be a proper term. Could this redirect be removed by any chance? Mythic Writerlord (talk) 18:22, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Consider redirecting it back to the pharmaceutical, Biricodar. A disambiguation page for the two obscure uses would also be possible.Novangelis (talk) 21:18, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Incel is merely an abbreviation of involuntary celibacy. MalleusMaleficarum1486 (talk) 19:40, 19 January 2014 (UTC)


  • If it is not voluntary, better back to the pharmaceutical, I think. Hafspajen (talk) 19:45, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
I will revert it back, but MalleusMaleficarum keeps reverting it and edit-warring on the subject. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 19:54, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Sigh. I am not sure that this should be here at all. Celibacy (from Latin, cælibatus) is the state of being unmarried and/or sexually abstinent, usually for religious reasons. This should be a clue. A disambiguation page, yes maybe. Hafspajen (talk) 21:45, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Read the article entry and it looks to me that the votes were more for merging into than Celibacy. Celibacy is a clerical, religious stuff. Hafspajen (talk) 22:09, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Seeing as though there is such limited sourcing for the entire condition to begin with, we might as well remove it from wikipedia altogether for the time being. It certainly does not seem to be an issue that warrants such a large and long-winded section on any article. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 22:12, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Well, I wouldn't go so far, but I don't understand what this has to do here. I would remove it to Sexual abstinence, and hope fot the best. I mean it is not a religious thing. Celibacy is a relogious behavioral issue, and motivated by factors as personal or religious beliefs... Hafspajen (talk) 22:23, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
We could delete the "involuntary celibacy" redirect then and redirect "involuntary abstinence" to the article on abstinence, making it a sub-section there? Said section could be a bit shorter, too (5000 letters seems a bit excessive). This way it would be included, but in a more fitting location. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 22:29, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Yes, do that. Please. Sexual abstinence covers medical, psychological, legal, social, financial, philosophical, moral aspects. Hafspajen (talk) 22:35, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
We could. But I would prefer not to personally rename\remove redirects and place the section in another article without a wider consensus. I've been involved in this discussion for a while now so it would be better for the actions to be done by someone less involved. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 22:43, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Well this is silly. What to do. Hafspajen (talk) 23:18, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
Such a proposal is completely baffling. The involuntary part of the article uses sources that talk about the term involuntary celibacy. MalleusMaleficarum1486 (talk) 00:30, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

No, not quite. OK:Studied this thing here, and the arguments why this has been merger here are kind of circular, because it is called celibacy, it has to be merged into Celibacy: Furthermore, celibacy, not abstinence, is the clear choice here, as the term “involuntary celibacy” itself indicates celibacy can be both voluntary and involuntary. So far so good. Butthe choice is not quite so clear.

The problem is that the term is not defined quite clearly: The sourcing provided by Atethnekos (which was also pointed to by a few editors) is also inconclusive to backing the inclusion of this article, as most of those sources do not actually use the term "Involuntary celibacy", but instead describe the apparent phenomenon in conjunction with other terms like "sexlessness". The few sources that do use this term seem to be the primary source from which the term has been derived, those being Donnelly, Burgess and Abbott... and those particular papers do not seem to have gained widespread traction, use or review (at least no one has produced any evidence of such in this discussion). Therefore, the argument stating that this term is a possible neologism has a good deal of weight, but not enough to warrant deletion. With all of this taken into consideration, the best possible course of action here (per the discussion) is to merge this into the celibacy article, until the time comes (if it comes) when enough reliable secondary sources are present to warrant a full separate article. Furthermore, celibacy, not abstinence, is the clear choice here, as the term “involuntary celibacy” itself indicates celibacy can be both voluntary and involuntary. Denise A Donnelly Elisabeth O Burgess should have studied religion history and the definition of celibacy before naming their object celibacy, because it has nothing to do with religion. As Scott stated at the discussion:There is no recognized, formal definition for this term. This is the Donnelly, Burgess and Abbott definition of what they were analizing, but, not the common definition of celibacy. This is the definition of Celibacy:

The deliberate abstinence from sexual activity, usually in connection with a religious role or practice. It has existed in some form in most world religions. It may indicate a person's ritual purity (sexual relations being viewed as polluting) or may be adopted to facilitate spiritual advancement (as sexual activity would take place only within the bonds of matrimony, marriage and family were seen as an entangling distraction). In shamanistic religions, shamans are often celibate. In Hinduism, “holy men” (or women) who have left ordinary secular life to seek final liberation are celibate. Buddhism began as a celibate order, though many sects have since given up celibacy. Chinese taoism has monastics and independent celibate adepts. Islam has no institutional celibacy, but individuals may embrace it for personal spiritual advancement. Judaism has prescribed periods of abstinence, but long-term celibacy has not played a large role. The early Christian church tended to regard celibacy as superior to marriage. Since the 12th century it has been the rule for Roman Catholic clergy, though clerical celibacy was never adopted by Protestantism.

I think Flyer22 made this Quite clear at the discussion, but wonder why nobody listened. Hafspajen (talk) 00:41, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

I wondered why this whole passage embracing „Involuntary celibacy" has been included here. Celibacy is a decision someone makes voluntarily (and often promises or even vows coram publico, while involuntary celibacy is not.--Turris Davidica (talk) 10:25, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Bless you, Turris Davidica. Yes, I wonder too. But there are some researcher who made some research on people who can't get themselves a partner, and call it, quite sloppily celibacy - and there was a nomination for deletion [2])and now we got this into THIS article, and I don't agree with it. Hafspajen (talk) 12:09, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

The content was merged here per AFD, in which all of you could have participated. If you want to change broader consensus, please seek to do so in the proper venue. That discussion concluded that sexual abstinence was not the proper target for the content. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:31, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, SandyGeorgia, quite true, we could have participated, and if only we would new, we would. We the editors in this article didn't realised that. Bad luck. I still think that celibacy - in the way - theyt use the word is not what this article is about. The issue here is an unfree social behaviour. Hafspajen (talk) 14:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
The AFD was included in sexuality discussions-- you gotta follow AFD! I'm not unsympathetic to the concern, but we can't just delete content that survived AFD. And I'm not sure how or where one goes next to revisit that consensus ... SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:44, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Sigh. Yes, I know, we can't just delete content that survived AFD. Hafspajen (talk) 15:58, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
There is a difference, of course, between removing content entirely, and moving content to another (possibly more fitting) article in a shortened version which is what I suggested. The section is, as it now seems, a bit too large and not in the right place. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 16:36, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Oh well, SandyGeorgia and Mythic Writerlord - is it possible to keep this section at least to three-four sentences? Not only that it is missplaced but it takes over the article. As it says. There is extremely little sexological study regarding involuntary celibacy. Now celibacy as it stands in this article is NOT a topic for sexological study, and this is mainly the problem in a nutshell. Hafspajen (talk) 16:51, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Mythic Writerlord seems to be suggesting moving content to another article in direct contradiction to the AFD outcome. And this sort of thing (not the first time), needs to stop; there was an AFD, and until/unless someone figures out where/how to revisit the outcome, it is what it is. I have no objection to the content being pruned; articles should reflect due weight. My role was to merge the content faithful to the AFD, but I agree there is now undue weight given to the section. I suggest that you, Hafspajen, undertake that work rather than Mythic Writerlord, as s/he seems to have some strong views on the matter that may cloud edits. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:29, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
OK, we do so. Until then, we (I) try to just make the content less proeminent. SandyGeorgia and Mythic Writerlord - shall we settle for let's say half of the text - or less? Hafspajen (talk) 20:53, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Third (that is, two-thirds cut) to half works for me ... why do you indent weird? I think a lot of the cutting could come from the overly detailed descriptions of Donnelly's work; there's no need to give so much weight and space to describing, basically, one person's work. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:15, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
  • ... what do you mean.. . indent weird?Hafspajen (talk) 21:39, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
  • You're supposed to indent one more than the person you are responding to, so it's clear to whom you are responding. You keep altering the indents backwards. (WP:INDENT) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:02, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Well. Hafspajen (talk) 22:03, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
Allrighty then. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:08, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Interesting, I never thought about it, but I really do that backwards. smile It is probably a way of keeping the talkpage in balance, probably an occupational disease - being an artist (also) - display, balace and layout are main issues one is working with. I AM disturbed by the discussions getting smaller and smaller - it makes me feel weird. Hafspajen (talk) 02:25, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Mythic Writerlord, I believe you are well aware of the consensus at the AFD, yet you have continued to remove the merged content without revisiting the AFD/merge discussion. [3] [4] I will contact the admin who closed the AFD. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:06, 7 March 2014 (UTC)

Not just me, but several others are removing it. The one placing it back is a user who is a sockpuppet of the permanently banned Malleus-something account who was rallying for the article to be kept in the first place. I have reported him to Coffee earlier today. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 20:09, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
Not several others, from what I see. There's you and then there's Turris Davidica. Flyer22 (talk) 20:24, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Please, SandyGeorgia, is it possible to move this stuff to an other article? I understand that there was a consensus at the AFD, really do, but is this really a very definite last word? Please. Hafspajen (talk) 20:25, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I understand your concern, hafspajen, but there was already a community process, and both Turris and Mythic are editwarring against broader community consensus, as judged by Coffee who closed the AFD with a merge (sorry that my role here was to complete the merge, as there seem to be some serious off-Wiki issues occurring on the topic). I am not certain exactly how one goes about revisiting the consensus of an AFD-- perhaps Coffee can advise. Short of a broader consensus that overturns the consensus on that AFD, both Turris and Mythic needs to stop edit warring and respect the consensus. In other words, I hope Coffee or some other admin will advise how one goes about revisiting an AFD. Bst, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:30, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
I reverted one edit on this page today, SandyGeorgia. One. That's hardly "edit warring". And I already said I would refrain from editing the page from now on, so really there isn't much of an issue here. I respect the outcome of the AfD. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 20:33, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I am sorry about this. I understand that people want to preserve this addition, but I am not sure this really is the right place. Very unfortunate that emotioms run high. I still feel merging this to a better place could resolve this. Can't we put this stuff here -> Sexual frustration? This article really has only three lines, it mentions incel, and this article may benefit by it. I feel problems may just go on, and will continue because this is not the proper place for this. Hafspajen (talk) 20:45, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
First of all: this not an edit-war. On several discussions as well as here there has been expressed concern about the fact that the contents of "involuntary celibacy" have nothing to do with celibacy: „Involuntary celibacy“ is completely different from celibacy due to its 'lack of voluntariness. Another problem is that iMHO the shifting of this content from its on lemma never was discussed here on the article celibacy but in some remote discussions we've never been aware of. I suggest to look for an article which is more suitable for the content about lack of sexual intercourse than an article on voluntarily promised or even vowed celibacy.--Turris Davidica (talk) 10:07, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Turris Davidica, it's been referred to as an edit war because of how WP:Edit war defines an edit war. Flyer22 (talk) 12:51, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Mind you, as far as I'm concerned: I didn't revert several times and I tried to explain the reason for my edits both in edit comments and on the discussion page. The user who continously reverted my and other users edits never left the slightest word here on the talk page (and is apparently suspected of a sockpuppetry, btw.)--Turris Davidica (talk) 13:31, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Neither me, nor Turris Davidica reverted more then two times. The only user to do so thrice is Andrey. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 13:40, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
[ WP: Edit conflict ]: Turris Davidica, you don't have to revert several times for it to be WP:Edit warring. And no matter how anyone defines "several," the keyword is "repeatedly" when it comes to WP:Edit warring...as in "more than once." You, Andrey Rublyov and Mythic Writerlord repeatedly reverting one another all made up what is accurately termed "a WP:Edit war." I understand that you have been working out the aforementioned disputed content here on the talk page. I'm just explaining what Wikipedia considers edit warring. If such reverting continues, a WP:Administrator is likely to WP:Protect (fully protect) the Celibacy article to not only stop the edit warring, but to inspire talk page communication in order to reach WP:Consensus on the matter, and might also temporarily block one or more of the people repeatedly reverting.
Mythic Writerlord, similar to what I told Turris Davidica above, WP:Edit warring is not about whether or not one has "reverted more th[a]n two times." For example, a Wikipedia editor does not have to breach WP:3RR (the three-revert rule) for repeated reverting to be a WP:Edit warring violation. Flyer22 (talk) 13:55, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Flyer22 is correct. In the absence of feedback from Coffee, who closed the AFD, Nikkimaria indicated on my talk page that WP:DRV might be the next stop in re-evaluating the consensus of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy (2nd nomination). But I looked over the conditions required for initiating a DRV, and they are not met in this case. Perhaps the next step is to open an RFC. What can't be done is for two editors to just delete content that specifically survived a recent AFD, without new consensus supporting that removal. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:04, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Neither me nor Turris are removing anything at this stage. There have been no more edits since yesterday and I welcome renewed discussion to reach a broad consensus before any new steps are taken. Mythic Writerlord (talk) 14:11, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Maybe someone should tell this Andrey Rublyov, too. – As I've already expressed on other talk pages such as SandyGeorgias: I withdraw from any action regarding the content in question until further notice. I am sorry for the inconvenience, I didn't mean to do any harm to the article, in the contrary.--Turris Davidica (talk) 14:27, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Since Andrey Rublyov knows enough to see when the content is removed and then revert, it might be that he has this article, and therefore this talk page, on his WP:Watchlist. If he does not see the above information about edit warring and what SandyGeorgia stated about seeing if a new WP:Consensus forms, and he does not understand it completely, then, yes, he should be informed of those matters as well. Flyer22 (talk) 14:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
  • The real problem is that this content doesn't really fit here. I do respect that the outcome is merge, and it should be preserved somehow, yes. But really, you know, has to be this article? Some day it will be removed, anyway. If not by us, than by some other editor who knows about this topic. This content will probably has to be garded all the time. It would be much better to merge it somewhere there it would be a natural place for it, like Sexual frustration, or so. Celibacy is something connected to religious observance, not - eh, bad luck - not managing to find a girl. Hafspajen (talk) 18:33, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

Information rearrangement[edit]

This page, Clerical celibacy, Clerical celibacy (Catholic Church) for example seem to cover somewhat overlapping topics - is there a better way we could divvy up all of this information, leaving only brief mentions of the related articles, with section hatnotes leading to the proper main articles? AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 09:00, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Last revert.[edit]

'Actually I am not sure that it was unconstructive edit of an IP.[5] It only had no references. Monks of Japanese Zen, Pure Land, Tendai, Shingon, Nichiren, etc., etc. (all denominations of Japanese Buddhism) can marry and be Monks at the same time (but not all do). Monks of some traditions of Tibetan Buddhism, like the Nyingmapa, can marry. While other Tibetan traditions, like the Kagyupa, cannot. The same is true for Korean Buddhists. Some can't, and some can. Typically Theravadin Monks (Sri Lanka, Thailand, Burma, Laos, Cambodia, etc.) may stay in monastic practice for a period of time, then some will decide to leave and get married and get a job. This is totally accepted and encouraged. Chinese, Taiwanese, and Vietnamese Monks are expected to uphold the vows of a Monk for the rest of their lives. These vows include celibacy, which means that Monks may never marry in these traditions. Some pages that support this: [6] [7][8][9] [10][11] Hafspajen (talk) 12:33, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

My reverts[edit]

Since I was called to say something here I will. Not much to say at all, really. A group of no more than 2-3 users who never engaged in any substantial discussion at all are claiming there is some kind of consensus on the talk page about material that was placed here after the AfD. Certainly grossly against the rules. Their proposals for it to be moved on articles like Sexual frustration are completely unsubstantiated, which they didn't even try to do so I will not go into arguments against this.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 19:44, 8 March 2014 (UTC)

I am sorry to say, but is not unsubstantiated, Andrey. I am sorry that you got reverted and not discussed, bur not much I can do now about it. But, do you understand that this article is about the religious observance? Celibacy refers to a state of state of abstinence from sexual intercourse or the abstention by vow from marriage or other sexual activity. Abstinence is a self-enforced restraint from indulging in bodily activities. Something that is made because people want to do it. They really chosed this, and can actually change it if they want too, leave the convent or ceise to be monks. Hafspajen (talk) 19:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Hi, Hafspajen. Unfortunately, what you're saying here doesn't seem to be correct or at least in line with what the article says. Not even the first sentence says it's always for religious reasons and while religion is mentioned at times there are many parts which don't involve it at all. Andrey Rublyov (talk) 20:05, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Hafspajen did not state "solely for religious reasons." But celibacy (at least if one doesn't define it as sexual abstinence for any reason) is "usually for religious reasons," and the well sourced first line of the Celibacy article makes that clear. Flyer22 (talk) 20:15, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
He did not state it in these words exactly but something like "But, do you understand that this article is about the religious observance?" heavily implies that he believes it to be for religious reasons only when good portions of article, not just those on Involuntary celibacy, say otherwise.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 20:50, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
And, also Donnelly and Burgess used a limit of six months of involuntary celibacy when they carried out their study. It was enough. Well, I am not sure. Hafspajen (talk) 20:18, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
Yes, you have a good point here. The issue is that this problem deserves its own article, as it isn't really about celibacy in terms of what it usually is nor is it always limited to sex. Yet here we are. A bad compromise was achieved.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 20:21, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
  • Well, I wouldn't mind having its own article, but there you go, this consensus at the AFD. The problem is the religious aspect here. Also, if you dislike the idea of Sexual frustration,(which I think that would be a good solution) there is Sexual abstinence; the practice of refraining from some or all aspects of sexual activity for medical, psychological, legal, social, financial, philosophical, and so on, it will be a better choice. Hafspajen (talk) 20:24, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
  • So, the circle is closed. This is the core of the whole issue. Celibacy say one thing, Involuntary celibacy, say otherwise. Hafspajen (talk) 20:54, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
This bok's author cited in the lead was admitting that she is talking about celibacy in a different way as the general academic definition of celibacy as per dictionary - that is the usual definition of celibacy. She wrote (page 16-17) : I also drafted a definition that discarded the rigidly pedantic and unhelpfull distingtions between celibacy, chastity and virginity, all of wich I used as key words in my research. Despite dry dictionary definitions they are, in the context of this book, synonymos. Risking tedium... I cite Webster's dictionary: ... celibacy is the state of being unmarried, especially that under a wow . But what she calls in her book non religious celibacy is actually not celibacy but chastity. And this is only one view; her wiev. She wishes to use those terms contrary what is the usual, generally accepted definition, well, it is her book, her choice. She has a doctorate in 19th-century history from McGill University, not sexology or religion history. But we can't change the established definition because of one source that is different. OK, two sources, the other one is the fairly narrow research of those three people who conducted this incel research, most probably based on her definition. And about Donnely, she is basing this on the 82 persons who comprise her sample per e-mail. (60 men and 22 women). Also, sixty-three percent were age 34 or younger (the modal category was ages 25-34). Not that uncommon that people at this age are six month without a partner, or even more without it need to be considered as unusual - or as a new unresearched behaviour. I don't really think that this quite narrow research can change the definition of celibacy. Hafspajen (talk) 01:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)

Involuntary[edit]

Two researchers I have never heard of and who are not in any way notable did a research on "involuntary celibacy" and this is somehow enough ground to justify a section in an otherwisen unrelated article? Seems a bit fishy to me. The whole part on female-abortion and hindu culture seemed more then a little far fetched and only supported by one single (questionable) source so I took it out. Can this section not be moved to the sexual frustration article or otherwise removed altogether? As it now stands there appears to be very little grounds to include this and next to no proper sources. 195.240.150.14 (talk) 10:05, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Yeah. We know this you know. Hafspajen (talk) 10:22, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
So can anything be done about this? 195.240.150.14 (talk) 10:27, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, soner or later it will be removed I guess, for obvious reasons. The problem is the disscussion above. This thing had an own article. Somebody said it should be deleted. There was a decision, maybe not so wise to merge this stuff in here. You can maybe try to ask for a Requests for comment. Hafspajen (talk) 11:00, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for comment This is all I can do. Hafspajen (talk) 11:32, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Many various parts of this article have one or no source. The editor seems to be pushing his own agenda. Also, I don't see how the article is unrelated, as it discusses various perspectives on celibacy.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 11:41, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
As pointed out several times: alas, involuntary celibacy is not celibacy at all and therefore unrelated.--Turris Davidica (talk) 12:08, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
The entire term is nonsense already in itself. It's contradictive and strange, largely unsourced and not mentioned by any credible research whatsoever. The section is also too long. Please, Andrey Rublyov, stop trying to include the second part of the section. It does not need to be this long. This behaviour is disruptive and not helping the article's quality at all, nor is it bringing us any closer to finding a solution. 195.240.150.14 (talk) 07:41, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
"Contradictive" isn't a even a word and as for being contradictory it is explained this this term means involuntary as opposed to it usually being voluntary. Parts you removed were sources, better than some parts of the article you didn't remove and you make no explanation to why Donnelly's reaserch isn't credible nor why is the section too long. You just assert. I think behavior going against consensus achieved after the merging is disruptive, not my attempts to stop the disruption.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 18:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
The only disruptive editor is you, insisting on keeping the section as long as it is when there's no need for it. There are other parts that are not sufficiently sourced? Fine. Then go and work on those parts. Remove information if you deem it not needed. But don't go around re-adding content that was agreed upon to be pruned and do not constantly undo edits made by others please. Because that right there is disruptive. 195.240.150.14 (talk) 11:47, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Requests for comment[edit]

An editor has asked should the "involuntary celibacy" be included in this article? After what happened this is the only way to deal with this issue. User:Hafspajen|Hafspajen]] (talk) 11:32, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Has. And editor has asked. 195.240.150.14 (talk) 07:46, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
What is "involuntary celibacy" and what are the sources supporting the material. -- Somedifferentstuff (talk) 08:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Read the article.

  • Yes it should be included.
  • No it should not be included.
  • Start voting discussion here:
  • No it should not be included, for various reasons, see above. Hafspajen (talk) 14:09, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
  • No it should not be included, this passage should be moved elsewhere. Celibacy is a decision someone makes voluntarily (and often promises or even vows coram publico, while involuntary celibacy is not.--Turris Davidica (talk) 16:56, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
If that is so why are you for that part of the text being removed? You should just argue for it to be placed somewhere else. You make no arguments for why this part should be removed from here. Unless you can make a sufficient argument I will revert your edits that remove this and bring attention to it from higher-ups.Andrey Rublyov (talk) 19:34, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Ahem, this is a votation. In fact I have argued why this passage is wrong here several times. Please feel free to bring attention to this discussion to whomever you want, I am sure they are able to read the discussion above and elsewhere. IMHO, you've just set out in writing that you will continue editwarrying against the consensus here, Andrey. Several authors have told you that now, not just me.--Turris Davidica (talk) 20:16, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
  • No it should not be included, instead it should be moved to "sexual frustration" or removed from wikipedia altogether as the subject largely lacks proper sources and is somewhat untrustworthy being a bit of an online term barely if ever used outside internet fora. As it seems, biased editors have for some time now attempted to keep it in against general consensus among this articles editors. The section is also unnecesarily long but editor "Andrey Rubinov" continues to re-include the section portion. 195.240.150.14 (talk) 07:38, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
All of this talk contains no facts or even attempts of proof, just assertions. Assertions going against agreement achieved after this article was merged. As for whether or not it should be merged somewhere or removed that's not for you or me to decide. Administration member Sandy Georgia noted that some biased editors are pushing for deletion against consensus achieved by merging and I am afraid I will have to warn her if this continues. Two or three editors aren't "articles editors" and Wikipedia doesn't work on weasel tactics or words like "this is so because I say so". Andrey Rublyov (talk) 18:22, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
Up to my knowledge, Andrey, you've been told by Sandy Georgia to seek consensus or you could be blocked and have a look at WP:3RR and WP:EDITWAR; [12]. Please do so. You have repeatedly edited and reverted against the consensus of the other authors here.--Turris Davidica (talk) 19:32, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Do not include per WP:COMMONNAME (celibacy typically refers to voluntary celibacy) and WP:FRINGE (this appears to be a fringe use of the term). If there's enough material for a separate article and notability is established, create that article and add "For involuntary celibacy, see ..." EvergreenFir (talk) 20:49, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Comment David, is there a way to do something about this? Before we all fill this article talk page with hundred pages of complains against this Involuntary celibacy. This topic is going like forever on the We don't want Involuntary celibacy in this article? DavidLeighEllis, as fas as I remember somebody said somewhere that this was a solution to ask for an RCf. There is not possible to have an Articles for deletion/Involuntary celibacy 3rd nomination - because there is no such article. But the talk page of this article nowadays is just all about how to find a way out of this situation... Hafspajen (talk) 04:15, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
You could nominate Involuntary celibacy for deletion Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion to test whether there is a consensus for unmerger/removal. DavidLeighEllis (talk) 04:20, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, I might, thanks. Is there any way of mentioning all this discussion as a motive for it? Hafspajen (talk) 04:22, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
There is barely enough credible sources to justify a section on wikipedia, let alone an article of itself. General consensus on this was quite clear. A section on a relarted article would be sense, but perhaps the page on celibacy is not the right place for it to be put. We could make a vote on what page best to include it in: sexual frustration, chastity, or as a sub-section on the article virginity perhaps? There's many ways to go about this that would leave the majority of editors satisfied. 195.240.150.14 (talk) 07:21, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, we can start, to begin with. Contrary what people use to say to me that I am a bureaucrat, I am not. Hafspajen (talk) 10:41, 15 April 2014 (UTC)