Talk:Central Asian Shepherd Dog

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Old talk[edit]

I placed a general clean-up tag on this article for a few reasons;

1. The article as it now stands is rambling and un-organized.
2. Some parts of the article are rather confusing and appear to contradict themselves.
3. There are some spelling and grammer problems, which I would fix myself if not for the other two problems (especially #2).

It seems that, with a little more organization this could be a good article. ONUnicorn 19:52, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Most of this info comes from a commercial site that breeds Caucasians Ovcharka and the info is wrong or missleading. Trying to figure out this page to edit it Jeannine De Palma Pres CASSA.us (Added Fred Talk 23:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC) )

Copyvio[edit]

I just deleted the vast majority of this article as a copyvio from here. --Joelmills 04:29, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

To my understanding, it was the same author of both pages? Please see comment [1] at 19:50 MoRsΞ 13:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I changed it back. --Joelmills 20:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Added August 7th 2006 User:CASSA I have removed most all of the completely wrong info supplied by a breeder of a competing breed. I must learn more about this site before i finish this profile . So please give me a chance to read up on your rule and regs. I have a working sheep/horse farm and truth is we got to get ready for winter..

Edits[edit]

Comments on reverting last edits.

Aboriginal Central Asian Shepherd dogs originated in a region that includes different countries. At the same time, modern breed originated in RUSSIA. Russians "established the brand", wrote the modern standard, and selected aboriginal dogs from several other countries, that had been breed under this name.

There is no way to list any other country to list as a country of origin for CAO, while one can always use the term region refering to the breed origination. Not to mention that several people in other countries are currently citing similar dogs as their native breeds under different names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Afru (talkcontribs) 01:55, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Providing a reference to your opinion dog fighting excused here as a test[edit]

Please provide a reference with verifable resources to prove your claim that " a test " is currently being done by WORKING Nomads or shepherds.

I have provided a New York times link proving that in Russia and major cities of Central Asia it is NO longer a test but a blood sport.

Please note I have experts/ New stories links/pics and video in Afghanistan that can prove that no one is keeping SHEEP in Kabul and testing dogs, but the ghettos still has its weekend blood sport .

For arguement sake lets say a test is done today . Please discuss with me how a test can be done if the dogs that FAIL are not removed from breeding?

Why does this "test" involve gambling?

Please also tell me how dogs temperament and or working qualities are NOT inherited from the mothers side? Since only males are fougth.

In addition why does one have to test a dog to a dog if the dogs themselves are not working with livestock or will ever see a predator?

comment added by 72.228.151.208 (talk) 13:29, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

To whom it may concern
in regards with laws, your actions are a direct violation of Privacy_laws_of_the_United_States, as well as Wiki rules.Nuvola apps important.svg Please do not attack other editors. If you continue, you will be blocked from editing Wikipedia.
In regards with discussions, this is NOT a place for arguments. In regards with encyclopedia style, the article needs to fit in it in order to stay in Wiki, and attempts to re-write it into another style do nothing but harm.
In regards with the article factual sense, there is nothing to argue about. There is no evidence proving that nomads fight tested the dogs versus fighting them "just for money". Same applies to modern times. Not to mention that nomads did NOT develop the breed initially, because the breed was originally established by whoever was raising sheep or goats, while nomads were traveling, so they helped to spread it. As per fighting dogs of this breed in some countries, there is already a clear outline in this article already.
However, there are factual materials that some of so-called "fight test" aimed to measure the aggression towards strange unfriendly dogs or other large predators entering protected premises. This applies to dogs of either gender. As well, there are several cases of successful re-introduction of dogs from kennels that run so-called "fighting tests" to livestock guardians duties, in different countries. As well, the free range farming is on the rise in Russia, and the livestock guardian dogs are in demand. The pit-like dogs, pit mixes and commercial fights is one thing; the necessity to maintain aggression towards predators to protect the herd from strays is a totally different issue. This needs to be sorted out to avoid unnecessary misunderstandings.--Afru (talk) 18:11, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Again I will ask for references[edit]

1. You id here is Afru your name so dont get your privacy law comment. Wnat Privacy change your sign in name. Why would someone think using their name as per wilki sign is a attack? 2. I posted wilki style reference that backs up my facts concerning the breed.

Please provide any I repeat Please any English verifable source for your opinion about a test you condone as a working quality test. Which I prove as per New York times and maybe another 100 news stories that is a blood sport around gambling in cities where dogs will never ever never see a predator be wolf of coyote. Thus it is dog fighting not a test.

72.228.151.208 (talk) 20:36, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

!~~[edit]

To whom it may concern, I provided a New York Times reference to the fact that the breed is no longer being working tested dog to dog.

That indeed it is a bloodsport,

72.228.151.208 (talk) 13:35, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I have redacted (and oversighted) parts of the above post, due to material that has no place on Wikipedia. If you and another person have a dispute, then the issue here is the editing of the article; please leave all personal accusations off the wiki. Thank you. FT2 (Talk | email) 23:55, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Is this the same referent as "Central Asian Bear Dog"?[edit]

Readers of this article want to know, is dog that you will find if you Google "Central Asian Bear Dog"? Chrisrus (talk) 01:13, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

This article needs the breed's measurements.[edit]

This article lacks the breed's average weight and height. Gatorgirl7563 (talk) 20:55, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal[edit]

Proposing that Kuchi be merged here - for all intents and purposes (and according to google) they appear to be the exact same kind of dog, with Central Asian Shepherd Dog being the more common name. --TKK bark ! 09:32, 19 December 2012 (UTC)

Found evidence that the breed is in fact separate, will work on the article myself.--TKK bark ! 23:44, 26 January 2013 (UTC)

Possibly... Current studies show that there are still different breeds under this breed name, the article needs clarification and detailed description of individual breeds. Will work on that time allowing Afru (talk) 01:07, 6 January 2013 (UTC)

Tobet[edit]

Also proposing that Tobet be merged here, the only reference I could find to the breed refers to it as an ovcharka - [2]--TKK bark ! 00:06, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

That's what they call the same dogs in Kazakhstan, also have a different breed standard for them. The essence of an issue is that there is a good dozen of them, each comes in a few varieties, and there are a few countries with similar breeds of same background and different breed standards as of now. We cannot merge under one breed name breeds with different standards from different countries together as the same breed. For example,Anatolian Shepherd and Kangal dog, come from the same aboriginal dogs of same background, from neighboring region, and it is often hard to distinguish one from another from Central Asian, what does not mean that we shall merge them here as well.

To complicate it beyond, some of them re export Central Asians from Russia, and breed them together with local dogs under authentic trade, ugh, breed name, while some maintain true authentic lines. Regardless, " Tobet" is considered a national treasure in Kazakhstan, and they are working to establish something different from Central Asian.

What I think shall work out fine, I can put within the article a directory of ethnic breed versions and aboriginal breed names for whatever dogs from countries of origin were and still being bred together under this breed name, and include links and pictures. Will also try to outline modern and historic breed development as well.

Another possibility, we can work on the articles, include past and modern history, and than list them in the main article with cross references ? "We" meaning involving breed experts from countries of origin.

I.e. what is better to start with, to improve the breed articles, and cross reference them all with the main article, or to merge them under one and make a directory of different breed names with according description ? Afru (talk) 04:36, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

I see what you mean - assuming you can find sources that will help it with its own article, how about leaving it there and creating a seperate 'Dogs of ovchartka type" page and linking to the numerous breeds from there? As it stands, the list of breed varieties on the Central Asian page seems really out of place; but i do see what you're saying and I agree with you to some extent. --TKK bark ! 13:35, 21 January 2013 (UTC)

Just looking to save time and efforts for everybody. You are right, will make more sense to put them (working "made in USSR" breeds) back to " ovtcharka" criteria, create a separate directory, and go from there. Just take a look at Caucasian_Shepherd_Dog and Armenian_Gampr_dog .

Most people from former USSR countries that know dogs more or less will recognize them and describe in Russian term " from geographic region" + ovtcharka or ovcharka, ie the dog that works with sheep". For example, German Shepherd breed name in Russian = " From Germany" + "dog working with sheep". Now, after USSR collapsed, they re establish their original languages, and all the different breed names as well as breed origination ugh histories. not to mention exclusive country of origin and National Treasury ideas.

No matter where these dogs were born, they all are easily distinguished not by country of origin, but via livestock tests into " true bred", "questionable" and "the ones that injure livestock", and we are waiting for fairly reliable statistics and publication @ reliable source by(hopefully!) mid summer.

For now, we have a lot of factual info in different languages, a few true and honorable professional ethnic enthusiasts from most of "countries of origin" willing to help, and need help with organizing the directory, especially design and categories Afru (talk) 04:08, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

Breed names and varieties[edit]

Breed names in English[edit]

Central Asian Shepherd Dog, Central Asian Ovtcharka, Middle Asian Ovtcharka, Aziat in USA

– Sredneasiatskaïa Ovtcharka, Central Asia Shepherd Dog in Europe , FCI breed standard

– Alabai, Kopek and Kopeksi in Turkmenistan; Dakhdarma in Tajikistan; Kopek and Kazakh-it in Uzbekistan; Tobet-it, Alapar-it and Arab-it in Kazakhstan Also, other types of this dog Duregei, Durek, Kain-Kaptal, Dubara...

http://www.pads.ru/zadmin_data/issue.pdf_file_en/1229/newsletter_april_2005.pdf

– Non existent: Asiatic Mastiff

More to follow Afru (talk) 03:41, 28 January 2013 (UTC)

Library with PADS archives http://www.livestockguardiandogs.com/pads-journals-articles-t89.html. Several unique studies and articles on primitive and aboriginal breeds of dogs. Library that contains a lot of reliable information about general maintenance, health and behavior of similar, including closely related breeds, some about this breed, but this breed is still rare in USA while other breeds are more common http://lgd.org/library.htm .

More to follow.Afru (talk) 14:20, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

This dog breed is to be named alabai because it is not a russian breed. The turkic peoples of Middle Asia name it that way.Interbreeding these dogs of Middle asia does not mean that it is of Russian origin. In the past these dogs used to be called Turkish shepherd dogs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.245.207.132 (talk) 10:28, 31 May 2014 (UTC)