Talk:Centre-left

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Liberal Party[edit]

Not that I am a fan, but the Liberal Party of Canada has a social liberal agenda, supports government intervention in areas such as child care, healthcare, and public broadcasting. They might not be as progressive as the NDP, but I think that since the end of the Jean Chretien era anyway centre-left is a term that describes them accurately. I don't overly like the fact that this article exists as in many cases the distinction between centre-left and left of centre can be blured. Take for example the NDP, historically a democratic socialist party, considered by most to be on the Left, opposes globalization and supports an expansion of government services and regulation, yet on the other hand provincially in British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Ontario at various times in government has followed a very centrist agenda. Maybe this article should be merged? (Canadianpunk77 03:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC))

Also to call the Democratic Party U.S.A., "centre-left" is a bit of a stretch. Perhaps if Howard Dean were their presidential candidate? Social policies and economic policies cannot be measured the same way and as far as economic policies are concerned the Democrats favoured fairly conservative fiscal policies at least during the Clinton era. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canadianpunk77 (talkcontribs) 03:37, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Merger suggestion[edit]

This should be merged into Left-Right politics. -- Kaihsu 17:12, 2004 Mar 1 (UTC)

Or perhaps Left-wing politics should have a centre-left subsection? Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 18:17, 1 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I disagree completely. Left-Right politics has its place, but I should note that there is also a Left-wing politics page, a Right-wing politics page, and a Centre-right page to go along with this one. If we attempted to fit everything into the Left-Right politics page, that page would be split due to wiki policy (re: length). All of these pages relate to each other, and, as such, an effort should be taken to minimize repetition. However, this does not mean that all left and right related pages should be merged into one specific page. --(Ptah, the El Daoud 02:33, 9 July 2007 (UTC))

I also think that it should be merged with Left-Right politics the blurring of distinctions between Left and Centre-Left makes the list of "centre-left" political parties on this article misleading and confusing. Take for example the NDP, currently if you look at ideology the BC NDP, Yukon NDP, Alberta New Democrats, Ontario NDP and Maritime parties all have leftwing, democratic socialist agendas while the Saskatchewan and Manitoba NDP's are very firmly planted in the centre. The NDP has gone back and forth from supporting strong government intervention and regulation, not too mention a large social safety net to supporting "competetive" taxation and spending restraint on social programs. The same contrasts exist within the British Labour Party, French Socialist Party, German Social Democrats, Australian Labor Party, even the African National Congress not too mention numerous others. Besides democratic socialists favour a gradual move towards public ownership, should they really be listed as belonging to the centre-left? (Canadianpunk77 03:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC))

Norway[edit]

This just doesn't make any sense. And it is all wrong. Like Norway. The Norwegian Red-Green Coalition and the Labour Party itself are not center-left. They are left-wing.

Don't hesitate to make changes. --(Ptah, the El Daoud 23:55, 13 June 2007 (UTC))

Yeah I also think that the Red Green Coalition should be removed, the Norwegian Labour Party may consider itself to be centre-left, but I highly doubt that the Socialist Left Party would refer to themselves as such! (Canadianpunk77 03:40, 17 September 2007 (UTC))

USA Parties[edit]

I removed the Libertarian Party from the list of center-left parties. While they do uphold many of the same viewpoints about civil liberties, their fiscal policies are completely inconsistent with "center-left" ideology. Many Libertarians also dislike the simplistic notion of a left-right spectrum, which is why they represent themselves on a graph with both a social freedom and a fiscal freedom axis. Therefore, despite their social views, it is likely that Libertarians would take issue with their inclusion on this list. Rob Shepard 10:45, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I previously signed at the top somehow so I just removed that. Rob Shepard 10:46, 7 July 2007 (UTC)
Actually Libertarian ideology is the height of simplicity, but I agree that they are an extreme right-wing party and don't belong on the list.Nwe (talk) 11:00, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Socialist Party USA[edit]

The Socialist Party USA supports the gradual nationalization of the American economy and creation of a socialist state. That makes them a party of the Left, not the centre-left. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.239.105.238 (talk) 16:52, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

US Democratic Party mixture of centre left and right[edit]

Someone please explain to me how the Republican Party is a mixture of centre right and right-wing but the Democratic Party is so balanced between centre left and centre right. What makes someone right-wing and what makes someone left-wing? And you say Dennis Kucinich is centre left??? I respect your opinion, but I just have a really hard time believing Dennis Kucinich is anything but left-wing. What credible source do you have to support your claim?--Lucky Mitch (talk) 22:47, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Because the American political system is skewed towards the right. Many people in the Democratic Party hold decidly centre-right views on key issues (eg. on death penalty, private healthcare, workers' rights, gun ownership, support for American foreign policy, business-influence on political parties), much more mainstream Republicans are likely to hold extreme right-wing views on religion, the markets or foreign policy, while conversely only the rarest examples are likely to hold noticeably centre-left views. Kucinich is obviously centre-left. His policy positions have left-wing connotations (he's not anti-capitalist, opposed to every aspect of American foreign policy by default etc.). His opinions fit with general centre-left, social-democratic values.Nwe 15:27, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

So in your opinion, what issues/beliefs make someone left-wing and are there any major left-wing politicians in the United States?--Lucky Mitch 02:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I've already given you some of them above; anti-capitalism is the most important example. There are very few major left-wing politicians in the US, such is the nature of politics in America. Even people like Bernie Sanders or Ralph Nader are centre-left by international standards. For various historical reasons the US has never had a proper socialist political tradition and hence has no real major left-wing politicians. There are plenty of left-wing writers and intellectuals and so, arguably, is Michael Moore; aswell as most of the many Socialist parties and, previosly, the Socialist Party of America. But this is really mostly besides the point. In the context of this discussion the most important fact to remember is that the mainstream policy Democratic Party for most of last 20 yaers has been undeniably centre-right, as are the apparent stalwarts of the current Democratic Party, the Clintons, and is most closely affiliated in terms of ideology with the European Christian Democratic tradition.Nwe 12:06, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Interesting, so you're saying that a left-winger is automatically a socialist? So is a right-winger automatically a facist?--Lucky Mitch 03:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Fascism is not the opposite of socialism, you should know that. Socialism is a far more popular and inclusive term than Fascism, to make a complete understatement. No mainstream centre-right party is called the "Fascist Party", as opposed to mainstream centre-left parties, in fact no party in the world calls itself "Fascist". You're unlikely to get 20-50% of populations describing themselves as "Fascists". Most left-wingers are likely to be at least fairly close to socialism (although a lot of self-described socialists are more centre-left). By right-wing we generally mean a strict, ideological adherence to the free-market, as well possibly devout religiosity. Both ideals have a strong thread in the Republican party, Socialism does not have a strong position in the Democratic party, which is closest to the Christian Democrats.Nwe 13:35, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

You're right I do know that fascism is not the opposite of socialism. I was merely trying to set you up to see if I couldn't catch you on it, but I see you know better. You put up a very persuasive argument. But I still have another question; wouldn't it make more sense to say that the Democratic Party is a mixture of centre and centre left? I mean Rudy Giuliani shares some left-leaning ideals but I don't think that would make him centre left or even centre. I just fail to see how Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama or some of the other Democratic politicians of the United States could fit into the centre right position. Forgive me for sounding stubborn; I really am open to what you're saying--Lucky Mitch 16:47, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. With regards to the centre-right issue. Yes its true that Giuliani, for example, holds some left-leaning views, but, as you say, that isn't his general position. Clinton, and many mainstream democrats, hold fundamental values that mirror an explicit centre-right political position. This is the case with respect to economic and social issues in particular. But also foreign policy, proximity to corporate interests etc. At the half the Congressional Democratic Party, I'd guess, would, if transferred to most other national political, would fit most conveniently into a mainstream centre-right party. They'd be there with the moderate Republicans. Describing the the Democrats as "centre and centre left" would simply be misleading. It would simply imply some sort of particularly moderate leftism as its ideological basis, which is fundamentally untrue.Nwe 17:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Comments next to party names[edit]

Left-wing does not mean the same thing as far left, it includes both the far left and the center-left so right off the bat saying a party is "a mixture between center-left and left-wing" doesn't even make sense. Many of these comments next to the party names are both uncited and highly debateable. Also, a party can only be in one spot on the political spectrum. A party may have some different tendencies but it lands in the general center-left or far left area thus it can only be either center-left or far left not a mixture of any kind.--Lucky Mitch (talk) 02:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Defunct parties[edit]

Should defunct parties like the US Natural Law Party remain on the list? levin-bj84 18:16, 17 May 2008 (UTC)


Northern Ireland seperate from United Kingdom?[edit]

In the list of parties nationally, why is Northern Ireland seperate from United Kingdom? If you list them as two seperate entities, the UK should be refered to as Great britain. United Kingdom is the name of two kingdoms United - Britain and ireland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.136.35.211 (talk) 17:48, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

Isn't necessarily on a national basis, and parties in Northern Ireland are completely different from those in UK, so it makes sense.Nwe (talk) 16:26, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
I concur with the first poster - Northern Ireland is part of the UK - so you should have said '...parties in Northern Ireland are completely different from those in Great Britain' - because the UK is both. Either UK is changed to GB or NI has to be under UK. It makes no sense otherwise. 80.195.146.94 (talk) 08:28, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Northern Ireland politics is unique from mainland British politics, it's doesn't share the main centre-left party (Labour) as the rest of Great Britain, ditto with the centre-right parties and the centrist 'liberal' party. --92.21.61.190 (talk) 12:55, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The Democratic Party is a Centre-Right Party[edit]

I find it laughable that the Democratic Party is considered a centre-left party. Maybe back in the days of FDR but for the most part it's a moderate/liberal Republican party. Most New Democrats are Rockafeller Republicans. Bill Clinton moved the party to the right and today is widely supported by big business and Wall Street. No Centre-left party would've enacted NAFTA, reformed Welfare and staffed their cabinet with Wall Street types. Not gonna happen. And finally the new London mayor, Boris Johnson, a LIBERTARIAN, actually sought out advise from former CLINTON people on economic policy. It turns out that in most nations, the Clintons and the Democratic party are seen as centre-right.

The Democratic Party is a centrist party at most.



Response:

I'd also suggest to stop the soapboxing. Most western left/centre left major parties have become far more economically liberalised. The 'centre' has shifted, centre-left and centre-right are relative. Timeshift (talk) 23:55, 26 September 2008 (UTC)


Sorry but how are the Democrats Centre-left? they are well to the right of other Centre-left parties in the world, and on this list. --92.8.29.116 (talk) 23:49, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

Have you read the Democrats article for starters? They are not "well" to the right of other centre left parties in the world. They are not as left as say a democratic socialist but still "fit" as far as "Centre-left" list goes. Try reading up on some of these left/right articles a bit first before you go reverting all over the place. To remove the Republicans from the Centre-right article was pretty close to vandalism in my opinion. You really need to educate yourself on this whole left/right situation.--Sting Buzz Me... 00:21, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
Take the WP:SOAPBOXing elsewhere. The US Democrats are a centre-left party. Timeshift (talk) 06:01, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

In any first world country other than the US, the United States Democratic Party would be classified as a center-right party. All of the other political parties on the list that I'm familiar with are so far to the left of the USDP that including it on the list makes a mockery of grouping parties from various countries together. Even comparing it to the US Green Party, the USDP is a notably conservative party. Simply because political discussion in the US is so limited that, by the standards of US politics, the USDP is a center-left party and the GOP is center-right, does not mean that this is true in comparison to other political parties worldwide. 64.178.115.134 (talk) 18:19, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

If you refer to all the wiki articles on various political parties and the left-right spectrum, I find it hard to disagree with this. 89.241.152.119 (talk) 19:01, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

(australian) Greens centre-left?[edit]

I think there is room for a re-think on the greens been placed on the list, certaintly many of there detracters (liberal party) would call them 'dangerous' socialists, is there someone who can confirm this or confirm as to why they make the list cheers --Mdavies 965 (talk) 10:41, 17 November 2008 (UTC) matt

Don't take this as a disagreement or agreement (more a comment), but don't the Liberals call Labor dangerous socialists too? Everyone is a dangerous socialist to them. I note the definition of centre-left is "whose views stretch from the centre to the left on the left-right spectrum, excluding far left stances". I wouldn't call the Greens far left. Timeshift (talk) 10:45, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Its just that the greens although supporting labor tend to hold, to put it simply, a more leftish view however i wouldnt consider myself an expert but the greens tend to hide there more "extreme" policies and gain public intrest from issues such as climate change and social justice--Mdavies 965 (talk) 11:04, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
Of course the Greens are more left than Labor. Labor are centrists. And for you to say the Greens have "extreme" policies is your point of view, and from my point of view, untrue. Timeshift (talk) 11:13, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
No that is not my view i was merely having a joke —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mdavies 965 (talkcontribs) 11:24, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
If you're not here to seriously discuss the article, then don't post here at all. Wikipedia is not the place for that. Timeshift (talk) 11:28, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
My point is that many of the views the greens share (for which i largly agree) would be considered outlandish by the largly conservative public--Mdavies 965 (talk) 11:33, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
That's your point of view, and original research. The fact of the matter is the Greens are not far-left, so they do come under the centre-left umbrella, which ranges from the centre to the left under the left-right spectrum. Timeshift (talk) 11:36, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
I strongly disagree. The Australian Greens have an almost universally enviro-social agenda and at best exhibit minimal interest or policy that could be considered pro-business, pro-development or pro-anything from the 'other side of the fence'. That would make them fair and squarely left-wing. I don't think they can be considered far- or extremist-left, as perhaps some of the non-political environmental groups in Australia tend to be, but there is no way they can be considered centre-left, especially if you consider Australian Labor centre-left. I've removed the reference on this page.150.101.108.23 (talk) 11:18, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Original Research[edit]

This article appears to be entirely original research. Does anyone have any source that there is a specific ideology or group of political parties called center-left? Mostly when the term center-left is used, it refers to a coaltion between a centrist and a leftist party. The Four Deuces (talk) 16:00, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


List of Parties[edit]

Why has the list of parties been removed? --Welshsocialist (talk) 21:34, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

No sources. See the AfD.[1] The Four Deuces (talk) 21:49, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

What about the centre-right page? --Welshsocialist (talk) 16:53, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Following the AfD an editor re-wrote this article but did not work on Centre-right. Also, use of the term centre-right is more consistent. The Four Deuces (talk) 17:31, 24 November 2009 (UTC)

Removal of text not supported by sources[edit]

I removed text with the notation "remove text not supported by sources or irrelevant" and an editor restored it with the notation "rv - you cant just remove countries like that just because the definition mightn't suit you." Please note that I did not remove the text because I did not like it but because it did not support the claims it was supposed to support. Since this article is about the "center-left". sources used to support the inclusion of parties as center-left should actually say that they are center-left. The Four Deuces (talk) 02:58, 8 December 2009 (UTC)