Talk:Ceuta

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Immigration issues[edit]

I think some comments should be added regarding the recent problems that they are having with illegal immigration. I just saw something in the news and came here looking for info, but there is nothing in this article.

The above from someone anonymous was unsigned, my own comments follow.
Reported today by international news agencies, in connection with hundreds of immigrants tearing down a fence and pouring into Melilla (The other Spanish Enclave in Morocco)- "In a separate incident, another 350 people, described as migrants from sub-Saharan Africa, tried to reach Spain's other North African territory, Ceuta, by swimming to one of its beaches from a nearby Moroccan shore." There have been other incidences of this happening, and reportedly the Ceuta detention centre currently holds around 750 refugees. Puzzled as to why there is no reference to this in the article. --MichaelGG (talk) 09:40, 18 September 2013 (UTC)

Misc.[edit]

According to the article Enclave, "Ceuta is not normally called an enclave, since it is reachable by sea." Anyone has an idea for modifying the article Ceuta accordingly? - User:Olivier

I think I'd be more in favour of modifying Enclave - not counting "coastal enclaves" seems to be a very idiosyncratic definition. -- Khendon

See also: Talk:Enclave - User:Olivier

It is claimed that Ceuta is known in France as Sebta, but I've never seen this spelling used, and it seems to be far less common than the other. Removed the remark. David.Monniaux 22:14, 6 May 2004 (UTC)

I notice there is a separate History of Ceuta page which could be merged with the main Ceuta page. If no one else objects, I will move it & make it a section for it on the Ceuta page. --Roisterer 01:39, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I was browsing throw the former Portuguese colonies info, and stopped in ceuta (just by instance and after seeing several) [1] and saw something wrong, it uses the portuguese shield in the flag. (the Portuguese shield is the most important symbol in the Portuguese flag, and it's used since the foundation of the nation. While the rest of the flag changed with different kings and w/the republic, but the shield was always kept. I though there is something wrong in here. And I get to the the official site and I learned that they use Lisbon's flag (what I didnt notice at first) [[2]]. o.O I knew the people from Ceuta see their formation has a city in the conquest of it to the Moors, and they are very friendly to Portuguese, but I honestly didnt expect it to use those symbols. Although the shield can be related to Ceuta cause it was part of the reconquista. And in the Portuguese shield the reconquista is alluded. -Pedro 16:21, 23 May 2005 (UTC)


First, as you have said, Ceuta was a Portuguese Colony. If you look carefully, you will see that ceuta didn't use exactly the portuguese shield in the flag. The portuguese shield is Lisbon's old shield, that was used by Portugal too when Ceuta was a colony. But Ceuta's shield is a bit different cause Ceuta isn't the capital of Portugal, because the castle in the middle-top border of the shield of the Portuguese shield is in a middle-botton position in Ceuta's shield (that in heraldics means Cauta is a colony, not the capital city). Moreover, Ceuta uses a 'Marquesal' (marquisal) Crown, instead of a Royal or Republican Crown like Portugal used in the past. That is because Ceuta was a 'Marca' (mark) or border of Portugal. During the portuguese colonization Ceuta uses during a time another shield, but when it was kept by Castile after Portugal Independence, the Portuguese shield was kept too. Felipealvarez 20:06, 24 May 2005 (UTC)
  • Olá Felipe. I know about the crown. The shield is THE symbol of Portugal, is THE real flag, you can find it everywhere from old castles built in the 12th century to a todays website. There is no republican crown. The crown was removed since the republic was installed. You can read the symbology of the Portuguese shield. I was shocked to see such a symbol used by another country. Although linked to Portugal in the History. Ceuta was given to Spain because it was full of Spanish people, so the governor didnt accept the new Portuguese king in 1640. And Portugal officially gave the colony to Spain as a symbol and as gift to end the restauration war of the Portuguese crown.

You should read again, carefully, the shield is the national symbol it isnt the symbol of Lisbon. The symbol of Lisbon is what ceuta uses has the flag. The shield is exactly the Portuguese shield with a crown.

the importance of the shield: when the new flag was created , they said about the shield: this is one of the most energetic symbols of the national integrity and independence.

It is one of the oldest national symbols in Europe. The flags since 1143: [3]. Did they talk to the Portuguese government when they adopted that flag? -Pedro 21:18, 24 May 2005 (UTC)


  • See the differences between Ceuta's [4] and Portugal [5] (Notice the possition of the castles, the center of the shield is the same. What I said in the last comment was extracted from [6] (In Spanish). I doubt they talk to the portuguese government when they adopted the flag, in Spain, when a town wants to have a shield or a flag, they do a project and sends it to the autonomous community government (regional goverment) for approval. Ceuta is a town and a autonomous community (called city in this case) and a town, so they choose the shield and the flag they wanted without supervision. In the autonomous community creation act ('Estatuto de Autonomía de Ceuta de 1995') said that the flag and the shield would be the tradicional ones, that were being used since the Portuguese colonization. So Ceuta didn't change their flag and shield when they became Spanish. Felipealvarez 23:15, 24 May 2005 (UTC) (I try to explain in a clear way, any doubt?)
  • I read that link, I gave it innitially. But I see the difference!!!! A castle has a different position! But also see this: [7] <- see the castles changing in each royal flag. I read that they only used the flag of Lisbon and they later added (or readded) the shield. But you are correct, they always used it. Strange. BTW it would be useful to add that flag in this article. And I bet there will be more people thinking "There's something wrong in here!" ;) -Pedro 00:48, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Demographics[edit]

Shouldn't this article include something about Demographics? What percentage are Muslim, what percentage are N. African vs. Spanish, etc.

Yom 18:32, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes it should. A majority of Ceutíes are Christian although there is a large and probably growing Muslim minority. In any case 100% are North African since Ceuta happens to be in North Africa.:-)

Revert[edit]

I reverted the sentence starting with "Septem redirects here..." since I assume that if somebody is actually searching for Septem, and they get here, they will certainly realize they've been forwarded. If somebody believes a dab is in order, please add properly.

Thanks

Sebastian Kessel Talk 23:02, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I can think of several alternate meanings of the word, but not off the top of my head. I may put up a dab page later if I can think of a few. Thank you for your explanation. Don't give an Ameriflag 20:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


Economy?[edit]

This article really needs an economy section. Anyone know? I'm guessing its tourism. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 209.206.165.40 (talk) 03:46, 30 January 2007 (UTC).

Well I started it for ya :) The data is mostly from two sources, one a government document, from IBRU, (with a very CIA-worldbook-ish slant but otherwise remarkably fact-full), and the other the Ceunta web page. I did a little searching online, for more, but I couldn't find much: it is a small city (according to the standard definition of >100,000 people, it is not a city at all) which happily promotes tourism and especially wants businesses to locate there, but acts principaly as a truck stop for international trade, so it's hard to find a lot of coverage in the common media. The spanish-language page for Ceunta goes into great detail about the cultural/tourist events, but I felt that wasn't apt, at least for this section, since tourism is not actually the primary source of income for the city. — robbiemuffin page talk 20:19, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Acording[edit]

Acording to Larousse, Marinids, was a Kingdom and dynasty, and the Kingdom of Grenada took the place.Bokpasa 07:47, 22 June 2007 (UTC)


Religion[edit]

What's the proportion of muslims and christians in the city?thanks Digodf (talk) 00:33, 29 November 2007 (UTC) PS: Aljazeera english is broadcasting a serie called "walls of shame". One of the episodes is about Ceuta. The links are:part 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5av8Pb0z3o8&feature=related and part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UXd_9Fr72BE&feature=related

I'm not sure, the city webpage doesn't have the actual statistics. But there are primarily 3 ethno-national groups there: the spanish (afterall, they've held the place for the better part of the last millenium), the marruecones, and the hindus. the hindus definitely come in third. — robbiemuffin page talk 20:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Gibraltar[edit]

Well if the current revision of the article [8] accurately reflects the official Spanish Government position, then I'm fine with that. There is an obvious double standard there but we should let the readers decide that for themselves. Justin talk 19:00, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Just peachy! Thats fine. Justin talk 19:17, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

The Spanish have four words for "hypocrisy": Malvinas, Cueta, Melilla, & Gibraltar. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.113.35.161 (talk) 16:51, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Semptem[edit]

Why does Septem redirect here? The word is Latin and means 'Seven'. Actually, it has several different meanings.. A dissambiguation should be made. --67.172.13.176 (talk) 07:04, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Ethnicity[edit]

Are people of Ceuta - light-skinned European or dark-skinned African? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.218.253 (talk) 07:28, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, like Morocco, it's the other way around: they're a mix of dark-skinned Europeans and light-skinned Africans. Santamoly (talk) 05:35, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Don Julián[edit]

I suggest to double check the byzantinian background of Don Julián. On all accounts, he was a nobleman closely linked to Toledo´s Visigoth Court. Her daughter Florinda was sent there to obtain an education and a noble husband. Alas, according to tradition, she was seduced by King Don Rodrigo, ushering then, Julian's thirst for blood and vengeance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.129.212.47 (talk) 21:53, 4 July 2010 (UTC)

Geobox elaboration and content[edit]

Obviously, there seems to be some ongoing edit-warring here within the past few days. I thought it best to address the reverts created from my point of view. As we know Wikipedia is both collaborative and consensual, and people are free to elaborate content and make alterations. A while back I added the Geobox format as an upgrade to the simple Infobox used on this page, as an upgrade to content and aesthetic. It was immediately reverted by a user who has since been banned for edit-warring and for a lack of good-faith attitude to other users. At that time, I along with another administrator found that this user reverted the content on this page without justifying their actions, nor responding to user inquiries. Recently, a second edit-war began using a complete revert to that users original content. This was not limited to merely eliminating the Geobox content, but completely reverting the content on this page to the exact detail left by the former protagonist. User:Diplomatiko, I would address this to you, specifically, as to why you been reverting not only the Geobox, but also the content in the body of this article to the former protagonists version? Further:

  • I suggest that the reversion of the Geobox to the older Infobox was unjust, as it clearly replaced rich-content done in good faith, with basic snippets of information; and that the Geobox is a modern retooling of basic Infoboxes;
  • User:Diplomatiko indicated during one reversion, that there was no consensus on the use of Geobox. Although I do agree on this point, I do note that Wikiproject Spain has not defined a standard on Infobox usage, therefore, upgrades to the Geobox standard are not disallowed;
  • and since the original change was mostly aesthetic, any revision should have still maintained the content placed in the updated Geobox, in any reverted Infobox format.

Finally, a note from User:Chipmunkdavis's comments: the placement of a linguistic reference in the header is not an ad-hoc indication of official language status. Since the community of Ceuta is in North Africa, was a Portuguese colony and now a dependency of Spain, it makes no sense to create a conflictive perspective by removing the Arabic notation. This is not the European Court of Justice, the U.N. Security Council or League of Nations, its just an article. Lets be a little inclusive here. Ruben JC (Zeorymer) (talk) 16:23, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Martyrdom Site[edit]

In 1227, during Saracen rule in Ceuta, six Franciscan friars from Tuscany- Angellus, Samuel, Donulus, Leo, Hugolinus, and Nicholas recieved permission from the Vicar-general Bro. Elias, to preach the Gospel in Morocco. Going by way of Spain where they rendezvoused with Bro. Daniel (from Belvedere Marittimo) who was the Minister Provincial of Calabria.

They set sail from Spain on 20 September 1227, reaching the coast of Africa, where they sojourned a few days in a small village that was a compound of Christian merchants from Genoa, Pisa, and Marseille, and was just beyond the walls of Ceuta. Early on Sunday morning, they entered the city of Ceuta and began preaching the Gospel and urged the people to abandon the religion of Mahomet. They were soon apprehended and jailed. Later, they were brought before the sultan. Presuming them to be mad, the sultan tried using promises and threats to make the friars renounce their Christian religion. They were condemned to death and summarily beheaded on 10 October. [1] Musicwriter (talk) 03:09, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Arabic name[edit]

Why does appear the arabic name of Ceuta in the lead? It doesn't have any official status. Doesn't it legitimate the claims of Morocco and therefore failling at NPOV? Also, note the differences with Falkland islands--Aner77 | Talk 00:17, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

A name doesn't legitimise anything. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 01:09, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Therefore I can put the name in japanese, can't I?--Aner77 | Talk 15:19, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
If it's historically relevant. Note arabic is not included in the infobox, which is about the official name etc. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:05, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
Can you argue the historical relevancy? Because I can argue the irrelevant one.--Aner77 | Talk 17:22, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
The city does have a lot of history to do with arabs. In addition, the city also contains a large minority of arabic speakers. If you do have a good argument for removal, present it. Claiming a name should not be included because it legitimises a claim is not a good argument. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:28, 31 July 2011 (UTC)
The city doesn't have a lot of history with arabs, but with berber people. It's not the same. The contact with arabs is relaqtively short if we compared with other rulers. Because with that argument we can argue that the city has an important history with ancient Greece and therefore include the classic greek name. The fact that the city contains a large minority of arabic people is irrelevant: San Francisco contains a large minority of asiatic people. New York has an important hispanic population and the article doesn't include the spanish name, Nueva York. I'm not pretending expose a sophism just to expose the irrelevance of that point. My argument is clear: it's not official and it's not supported by anyone, not even the most of the people in Ceuta with moroccian ancestors. I propose to include it in the part where it's described the moroccian claims, something like: "Morocco claims Ceuta (under the name of سبتة)" -or something like that, I'm not fluent at english-. Thank you for oyur attention. --Aner77 | Talk 01:15, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Well, I've looked around a few other comparable articles and have seen a mixed variety of using the alternative names or not. The name is unsourced right now anyway, and if as you claim it's not important then I would be perfectly fine with you editing like you stated above. Your english is far better than any of my other languages. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 09:58, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok, I'll wait a week for more answers and if there's no more, I'll change it as I described it here. Thanks again. --Aner77 | Talk 12:28, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
Did it.--Aner77 | Talk 16:08, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

History[edit]

Is "After Julian's death, the Berbers took direct control of the city, which the indigenous Berber tribes resented." correct? Lavateraguy (talk) 13:53, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Ceuta's muslims are mixed Arabs and mixed arabs-berbers.[edit]

It is not true that all muslims in Ceuta are berbers, they are mixed Arabs-berbers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.33.43.76 (talk) 21:32, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ Catholic Encyclopedia