Talk:Chaleur Bay

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The Geographical Names Board of Canada gives "Chaleur Bay" as the official English name and "Baie des Chaleurs" as the official French name. Since this was the English version of Wikipedia, I thought it might make more sense to use the former, same for the Restigouche & Patapedia Rivers. Note that Rivière Matapédia etc. which are wholly within Quebec only have official names in French. Cheers, Plasma east 02:01, 28 Jul 2004 (UTC)

The opinion of the Canadian government names board is not the issue here, if it were, Canada's own public broadcasting corporation would demonstrate that, they don't. Wikipedia's policy on place names is to use the name which is most used by serious sources: Wikipedia's naming conventions or Wikibooks naming policy. In this case let's compare the three possible names for the bay as used by Canada wide media. The following results are obtained on enlish language Google:
Search terms cross-section Baie des chaleurs Chaleur bay Bay of Chaleur
CBC 1420 788 217
"Canadian broadcasting corporation" 479 496 21
Total 1899 1284 238
On Canada's own english public media, "baie des Chaleurs" occurs more often than the other two nomers combined. Now let's go one step further and cross check with CTV:
CTV 621 603 27
Total 2520 1887 265
Same conclusions... want more...
"Canadian press" 96 37 37
Total 2616 1924 302
Canadian Press uses "baie des Chaleurs" way more often than the other 2 nomers combined. Now for one last nail in the coffin:
"Globe and Mail" 241 60 61
Total 2857 1984 362
"Globe and Mail" uses "baie des Chaleurs" twice as often as the other 2 nomers combined.

So I'm redirecting, and correcting all links--Tallard 08:30, 5 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]


"Nail in the coffin?" Doesn't sound like a very encyclopedic approach to the question.
Let's look at Wikipedia's actual policies:
Naming Conventions (Use English) "Use the most commonly used English version of the name of the subject as the title of the article, as you would find it in verifiable reliable sources (for example other encyclopedias and reference works). This makes it easy to find, and easy to compare information with other sources. Often this will be the local version, as with Madrid. Sometimes the usual English version will differ somewhat from the local form (Aragon, Venice, Normandy; Franz Josef Strauss, Victor Emmanuel III, Christopher Columbus); rarely, as with Germany or Mount Everest, it will be completely different."
Divided Usage "Sometimes, English usage is divided. For example, US newspapers generally referred to the Olympics in Torino, following official handouts. However, newspapers in other parts of the English speaking world still use Turin. Use what would be the least surprising to a user finding the article. Whichever is chosen, one should place a redirect at the other title and mention both forms in the lead.
Google hits are an unreliable test, but can suggest that no single term is predominant in English. If several competing versions of a name have roughly equal numbers (say 1803 for one variant and 1030 for another), there may well be divided usage. When in doubt, search results should also be evaluated with more weighting given to verifiable reliable sources than to less reliable sources (such as comments in forums, mailing lists and the like). Do consult reliable works of general reference in English."
The numbers you have found, Tallard, don't on their own support your conclusion that 'Baie des Chaleurs' is used so commonly by English speakers as to displace anglicized alternatives. Your numbers indicate that 'Baie des Chaleurs' is a hit more than 50% of the time.
My search of the English language CBC website itself (not Google hits) shows 75 hits on CBC English for 'Baie des Chaleurs' and 309 for Chaleur Bay. My assumption is that refers to individual articles. I acknowledge that CBC usage, on its own, is not enough, any more than Globe & Mail usage, on its own, would be enough to indicate anything definitive. But we do seem to have an indication of divided usage.
When I look to results using "Canadian Press" (in quotations) + Baie des Chaleurs I come up with 207 hits, of which a not insignificant number actually relate to articles or materials written in French, or articles containing references to the Baie des Chaleurs in French texts. It's not appropriate to count French language references to "Baie des Chaleurs" as a way of determining usage of the term by the English media or English speakers. "Canadian Press" in quotations with "Chaleur Bay" gave me 174 hits, and "Canadian Press" + Bay of Chaleur gave me 410 results.
I think, when examined fairly, that internet hits indicate a divided usage. Official national usage (Geographical Names Board of Canada) and provincial usage (New Brunswick government website) indicate Chaleur Bay, and local government/authority usage (Bathurst, Dalhousie, Port of Dalhousie websites) also suggest some English variant, although divided among the individual possibilities. Both the online Canadian Encyclopedia and Encyclopedia Britannica use 'Chaleur Bay' as the title of their articles.
The article also seems to have been pretty stable for a long time (from July 2004 if I interpreted the history correctly) with an English name (either Chaleur Bay or Bay of Chaleur) until changed in Nov. 2007.
So, given the divided usage in English, English Wikipedia's general policy to prefer English names (which makes sense on English Wikipedia), and the fact that there are government and general reference works supporting 'Chaleur Bay', it seems that the appropriate name for the article at this time is 'Chaleur Bay', with a discussion of the common use of the term 'Baie des Chaleurs' even by anglophones as well as the other variants. English usage may change in future to clearly and demonstrably prefer 'Baie des Chaleurs', in which case it would be appropriate to consider changing the title. 'Baie des Chaleurs' reflects my own preference as it sounds better to my ear than the hybrid 'Chaleur Bay', and I have a good English language atlas that uses 'Baie des Chaleurs', but personal preferences need to defer to Wikipedia policy. Finally, if the local anglophone community in northeastern New Brunswick uses some variant of 'Chaleur Bay', I think that needs to be considered and respected where consistent with general Wikipedia naming policy. 'Chaleur Bay' or 'Bay of Chaleur' is their home.Corlyon (talk) 18:36, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]


Corlyon your arguments fail in three respects: 1, Wiki policy of least surprise makes a Google hits search entirely more relevant than smaller samplings from individual websites (100s vs 1000s, 2, you're asking for respect for New-Brunswickers, while totally denying anglophones in Québec who use Baie des Chaleurs, 3, official Canadian usage is the original language of the name. I am reverting back to previous. The position you are pushing is a minority position (nearly a 2x) ratio, that may be divided, but it is certainly leaning heavily to one side. In providing hits you must widen your expectations of reader hits, not reduce it to one or two sources. GENERAL USE, LEAST SURPRISE.--Tallard (talk) 19:18, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Tallard, I reviewed your Google hit results and presented my findings at the Talk Page for "Baie des Chaleurs". As I state there, I cannot reproduce your numbers, and mine show higher results for either "Bay of Chaleur" and "Bay Chaleur", than for "Baie des Chaleurs" so your original argument to justify the move to "Baie des Chaleurs" is flimsy. I ran searches using the terms "CBC", "Canadian Broadcasting Corporation", "Globe and Mail", "CTV" and "Canadian Press" and the totals came out higher for 2 English variants. I don't follow your other points. You have not referred to any sources to support a distinct Anglo-Quebecer local usage perspective. I don't follow your point that "official Canadian usage is the original language of the name" Do you have a Wikipedia source for that consistent with Wikipedia policies on sources that I could refer to. I think the title 'Chaleur Bay' is the appropriate one at this time, for a variety of reasons consistent with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(use_English). If "Bay of Chaleur" or "Bay Chaleur" are used as or more frequently than "Baie des Chaleurs", someone is going to be surprised by the name of the article, no matter what. Corlyon (talk) 16:30, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Here are the results that I came up with on Google hits (which are not determinative of anything in my mind other than that 1) there is truly a situation here of divided usage between the name in French and 2) several English variants are used as commonly as 'Baie des Chaleurs':
Search terms cross-section Baie des chaleurs Chaleur Bay Bay of Chaleur Bay Chaleur
CBC 1790 571 465 1776
"Canadian broadcasting corporation" 333 227 1,290 416
CTV 453 744 1,810 375
"Canadian press" 106 315 197 323
"Globe and Mail" 323 85 337 499
Total 3,005 1,942 4.099 3,389

Corlyon (talk) 16:50, 25 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Article name[edit]

According to WP:EN: "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject which is most common in the English language". So I was surprised at the title of this article since I don't recall hearing an anglophone New Brunswicker use anything other than Baie des Chaleurs. It's not like it's difficult to pronounce. Let's look at the numbers:

Website "Baie des chaleurs" "Chaleur Bay" Notes
telegraphjournal.com 910 44 Actual result is 1300 but about a third of those are francophone pages since telegraphjournal.com includes some francophone media.
cbc.ca 1,020 30 radio-canada.ca returns 3,180 for "Baie des chaleurs"
theglobeandmail.com 18 6
reddit.com 17 5 Returned some French-language pages too, I just counted the English ones.
macleans.ca 4 1
ctv.ca 2 0
thechronicleherald.ca 1 6

The above are Google searches of the format "Baie des chaleurs" site:telegraphjournal.com were done 5 Oct. 2017. --Cornellier (talk) 14:20, 5 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I propose a name change. Thoughts? I can be WP:BOLD and do it. --Cornellier (talk) 22:51, 15 February 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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