Talk:Charge of the Light Brigade

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Request for info[edit]

I visited the site of the battle in 2003 and took a number of photos from the position overlooking the field where there is a memorial (if memory serves) and some military kit, a T34, a patrol boat etc. I made extensive notes at the time on the photos but now that I have changed computers, my explanations are missing. Would be grateful if some kind soul were prepared to help me orientate them, so I can see where the charge started etc etc. Any takers?? ir5ac@lycos.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ir5ac (talkcontribs) 11:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Valley of the Shadow of Death image.[edit]

This comes from the Siege of Sevastopol, five months after the charge. The connection with this article is a bit tenuous: is it worth keeping here? --Old Moonraker 07:16, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Removed. --Old Moonraker 05:33, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
Crept back in, removed again. --Old Moonraker (talk) 20:49, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Fenton Photograph[edit]

The Fenton photograph of a very few of the "Charge" survivors was originally captioned something like "Survivors of The Charge of The Light Brigade after the battle." Plus the photo's own licensing page said it was taken in October 1854. Can't be. The charge took place then, but Mr. Fenton did not arrive and begin taking his famous photographs until March 8, 1855. He stayed until June 26, 1855. So the picture of some of the survivors had to have been taken several months after the actual batle. I changed the caption to reflect that. Sir Rhosis (talk) 08:19, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Link now to version of the image with better licensing information, higher resolution but without the color correction.--Old Moonraker (talk) 10:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Image:Fenton13ltdragoons.jpg is now under consideration as a featured picture on Commons. --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:58, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Calthorpe's quotation[edit]

This is copy/pasted from User talk:Old Moonraker to enable wider discussion.

Hi! i wouldn't strenuously object to adding "sic" back (i don't think linking it makes sense, i.e. "linking all words is silly" :-) )... but using it does seem to imply (rightly or wrongly) to most people that it was an error preserved in the transcription. I also doubt that you'll see a flood of "corrections"... look at, for example, Serjeant-at-Arms, where there's no "move war". Another solution might be to explicitly link "Serjeant" to Sergeant, like [[Sergeant|Serjeant]] which implies that it's meant to be spelled that way. Another point to consider is that a Chaucer quote won't have sic on it, on the other hand, i don't know how relevant that is. I don't know... like i said, i'm not going to get upset if you revert. Cheers! --Storkk (talk) 10:48, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Reply on poster's talk page. --Old Moonraker (talk) 05:45, 14 July 2008 (UTC)
Hi again!... do you have the source involved? I'm just wondering if "Serjeants" has a colon after it in the original, as all the other categories listed do. Did this somehow get lost? Cheers, Storkk (talk) 12:55, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Went back to the original (and in doing so found a typo in the page number) and found that it's a table, which I can't do on Wikipedia. Colon inserted, as suggested. URL attached to the footnote, to assist any editor who wants to try to use a table instead of text. --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:08, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
What do you think? I left out the ellipses, but tried to get everything else. I'm not sure it's better at all. --Storkk (talk) 13:55, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
As it's a quote, we should, according to MOS:QUOTE, try to "preserve the original style, spelling and punctuation". You have succeeded where I failed—thanks. The same guideline suggests that in blockquotes the quotation marks may be dispensed with: indeed as it stands the opening mark does look a bit incongruous.--Old Moonraker (talk) 14:06, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
I saw the problem with the quotes, however because of the table, even using <blockquotes> it's not crystal clear that it's a quotation. I couldn't think of a solution to this. I'll be copy/pasting this discussion over to the article's talk page so that it's more open to other contributors. Cheers, Storkk (talk) 14:16, 24 July 2008 (UTC)
Trying the quotation marks inside the block, pace the manual of style, which deprecates this. --Old Moonraker (talk) 12:50, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Trivia[edit]

Some small information might be that it was quoted on the movie The Blind Side. I don't remember exact thing. It however was the favorite of the character Sean Tuohy.

I appreciate the work that went into collating this information, but the "media" section in this article has much too much trivia. Just because a work of film or fiction mentioned the Charge of the Light Brigade, does not mean we should include it in a list here. Better would be to link the Charge of the light Brigade from the appropriate article about those films or works. See also WP:TRIVIA. The only media works that should be listed here, should be those which received significant coverage in outside published sources, covering their link to the battle. Thanks, --Elonka 15:07, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree, but from a superficial glance this would take "Music" away altogether and reduce the other sub-sections to only a couple of entries each. IMO this is for the better, but might this cause a bit of an upset to editors where a casual reference in their favorite novel, or pet song, has gone? --Old Moonraker (talk) 15:38, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I think The Last of the Light Brigade by Rudyard Kipling should be mentioned somewhere in this page instead of just the external links. It is definitely directly related to both the event and the poem and should be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kaarin (talkcontribs) 02:16, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Done—good suggestion. Don't forget WP:BOLD (although as a new user you would have to wait a few days before doing this yourself). --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:33, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
An editor has reverted the whole of this on the grounds that I used the perpetual present tense, as suggested in WP:BETTER. Seems a bit of a harsh judgement: reinstating. Apologies for the absence edit summary: pressed "save" when it should have been "preview" not once, but twice! My clumsy use of WP:TW to blame.--Old Moonraker (talk) 20:00, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
It seemed to me that referring in the present to the poor treatment of soldiers extended from the 19th century to the 21st. I didn't think that this was supposed to be a political article, per se. I didn't understand why the the present tense was being used at all, since the article discusses a historical event and a historical observation. Student7 (talk) 12:19, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Can someone please add this important source to the pages dealing with the Charge of the Light Brigade. The source is the edition of the Illustrated London News of 30th October 1875 which devoted its front page and five other pages to a full description of a dinner held by survivors of the "Charge" at the Alexandra Palace. The article in the Illustrated London News includes some very interesting and relevant recollections of what happened during the Charge by some of the survivors. There is a downloadable pdf version of the article on this site: www.julienco.com/balaclava.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mfjulien (talkcontribs) 00:26, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Good find. Might be worth trimming the verbatim account of Cardigan's speech in the Lords (possibly too long for WP:NPS) and substitute with something from the troopers' point of view. --Old Moonraker (talk) 05:23, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Unprotect[edit]

Is there any reason that this page is protected? From what I see it was protected in July in response to vandalism and about a month later the protection was taken away and then after 6 days without any edits at all the protection was re added and it has been protected ever since. I feel that unless there is a specific reason that this page is still protected I feel it should be unprotected Sean0987 (talk) 07:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC) sean0987

There are a lot of pages that receive more than their share of vandalism from Middle Schoolers. This is one. Children are exposed to the Charge in the famous poem which is adequately covered and usually not the reason for their edits anyway - just simple vandalism. We are getting into fairly sophisticated knowledge here. I don't see that even a well-behaved middle schooler is really going to be able to contribute a whole lot at this point. I vote for protection.Student7 (talk) 16:06, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that revealing note. I knew it existed on Wikipedia but I never heard it said with such clarity. The 'We' being the elitist types that think they 'know-it-all' and creating their own version of 'wikiality' so noted famously by Stephen Colbert. I particularly like the use of
We are getting into fairly sophisticated knowledge here.
Really? Then it must be pretty advanced stuff they are teaching middle-graders these days!! Or do you just not like the thoughts of strangers tinkering with your own version of the truth? Either way the clarity is all yours.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.154.107.49 (talk) 11:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Nothing to do with "know-it-all" editors: it was a continuing storm of vandalism from a determined concert party— see here. --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:41, 6 April 2009 (UTC)


Is there some way I can apply to be allowed to edit this semi-protected page? I am the author of a book on the Crimean War that reveals new facts about the Charge not referred to in this article. There are also some old facts that I think should be included e.g. the fact that the Brigade routed ten times their number of Russian Cavalry. My book also expounds a theory that Lucan allowed the Charge under pressure from the participants, who were dying to Charge the Cossacks. I do not want to expound this theory at length but I think it is worth a mention if only because the editor of the Crimean War Research Society Journal (himself the author of a book about the Charge) has commented on it favourably. I have made some edits to the Florence Nightingale page but probably not enough to get me autoconfirmed. Is there some other way I can apply to be confirmed so that I can edit this semi-protected page? Hugh Small (talk) 20:29, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

The usual way is to put the edit here, labelled with an {{editsemiprotected}} tag. Please see WP:RS and the policy regarding conflict of interest: when you yourself make such additions as this edit in Florence Nightingale"Before the publication of a book by Hugh Small"—it may well apply. --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:26, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Moonraker and I have re-edited the Florence Nightingale page to remove my name from the text. I will submit some proposed amendments to the Charge page soon, as you suggest. Hugh Small (talk) 21:44, 10 October 2009 (UTC)

The redoubts were on the left??[edit]

I don't understand it, why were the redoubts on the left? I watched the television programme Line of Fire on Australia's History Channel last night and thought the redoubts were on the right hand side of the cavalry. I mean, if we check the map in the article aren't the redoubts on the right hand side of the Light Brigade (the Light Brigade is initially on the left hand side of the map charging towards the right, and the redoubts are on the bottom of the map, so aren't the redoubts on the right hand side of the cavalry?)Ken l lee (talk) 15:10, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll cehck my sources again, but my understanding was that when the order was issued, the redoubts were actually to the left of the Light Brigade. I'm notsure the map shown in the article realtes to the same moment of time as when they actually received the order, once they began the charge proper, then yes the redoubts were on teh right. David Underdown (talk) 15:18, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
I see what you mean, because I was only thinking about the position of the redoubts as the cavalry was carrying out the actual charge. Ken l lee (talk) 15:23, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
Clearly, unless the cavalry had their backs to the Cossacks, the redoubts were on their right. Moioci (talk) 23:47, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

Kipling's poem "Last of the Light Brigade"[edit]

The N.Y. Times report cited does assert that Kipling's poem is based on an actual visit by the survivors to Tennyson's home.

The part about the charity generating 34 pounds for the veterans is true. However, I've been unable to find any outside evidence suggesting a visit by the troopers to Tennyson's home, nor have I found the poem that Kipling says Tennyson wrote to publicize the survivors' plight.

My strong impression is that Kipling's scenario is imaginary - what he wished would happen. Is there any evidence at all that it did?

PhD (talk) 22:00, 10 September 2009 (UTC)PhD

A new ref for "imaginary", to balance the "NYT", which is retained. --Old Moonraker (talk) 16:48, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Amendment to Representations in Media[edit]

{{editsemiprotected}}

The Charge of the Light Brigade is parodied in Jasper Fforde's Thursday Next series of books. The main character Thursday Next was before joining the Special Operations group was an enlisted member of a light cavalry troop (commanded by her brother) who raided a valley not knowing that there was a battery of Russian Artillery (Since this attack occured in 1975 the cavalry ride in APCs rather than horses)

Thanks for bringing this up for consideration. WP:POPCULTURE attempts to distinguish between "trivial cruft, giv[ing] Wikipedia a bad reputation" and "impact in popular culture can be a quality part of a topic". Given the instruction "passing mentions in books...should be included only when that mention's significance is itself demonstrated with secondary sources" I'm inclined to decline, pending independent evidence of notability. Templated response awaits other views.--Old Moonraker (talk) 12:39, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

How many sources do you want. It's mentioned throughout "The Eyre Affair" and is also mentioned in "Lost in a Good Book", and if you have ever read the books it's an almost exact description of the battle (albeit with APCs rather than Horses.) Maybe you should read the book then you would see for yourself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.167.5.6 (talk) 12:46, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

What Old Moonraker is asking for is a source other than the novels themselves that discusses this connection. It is very common for novels and other art/entertainment to contain references to historical events. Rather than making articles into catalogs of such allusions, it is preferable to focus on those that someone else already decided was significant. So if this comes up in reviews or other commentary on the Thursday Next books, it would make sense to include it. If it is just something that you noticed yourself that hasn't been mentioned elsewhere, then it probably should not be included. (Note: I'm "linking out" the edit request template, since it is clear that multiple editors with confirmed accounts have seen the request.) --RL0919 (talk) 14:29, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

Correct Location[edit]

44°32'16"N 33°37'27"E

http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=44.5376935&lon=33.6227989&z=15&l=1&m=b&show=/8397525/Charge-of-the-Light-Brigade-The-Valley-of-Death Iomark04 (talk) 14:54, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikimapia isn't a reliable source as it's locations are user-generated. However, I've dropped these co-ordinates into Google Earth and the location corresponds with the contemporary maps in the article. The current co-ords shown there are definitely wrong. Go for it!--Old Moonraker (talk) 15:49, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
As User:Iomark04 still awaits his/her autoconfirmation I've jumped in and done it. --Old Moonraker (talk) 15:54, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Opening summary should state directly where in the world it is e.g. Crimea, Ukraine. (I notice that some younger (<14) school kids where I teach, don't necessarily reason that the GPS co-ordinates under the image to the right of the page will lead them to this information) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.149.189.229 (talk) 17:59, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Good point; it's the sort of thing where WP:OBVIOUS seems to apply. It might be difficult to insert without repeating ourselves, though: we already have Crimean War (but not Crimea) and Battle of Balaklava (but not Balaklava)—only Sevastopol seems left out. I would be inclined to leave it to the wikilinks to do the job. --Old Moonraker (talk) 06:54, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Image duplication[edit]

This edit introduced a new image, a panorama of the valley today. It has more context and wider scope than the panorama immediately above it (at the time of posting) on the page. I was wondering if the older image is still needed? --Old Moonraker (talk) 13:15, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

The uploader of the more recent panorama has now added to the caption on Commons. The charge is from left-to-right, with Russian cross-fire from the Heights, centre, and the battery on the high ground, extreme right. Any WP:NOR problems if this goes into the caption here? --Old Moonraker (talk) 16:48, 24 August 2010 (UTC)
No objections: done. Thanks to User:Thetaylor82, who did all the work. --Old Moonraker (talk) 17:05, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

File:William Simpson - Charge of the light cavalry brigade, 25th Oct. 1854, under Major General the Earl of Cardigan.jpg to appear as POTD soon[edit]

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:William Simpson - Charge of the light cavalry brigade, 25th Oct. 1854, under Major General the Earl of Cardigan.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on October 25, 2010. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2010-10-25. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! howcheng {chat} 23:44, 22 October 2010 (UTC)

Picture of the day
The Charge of the Light Brigade at Balaklava

On October 25, 1854, during the Battle of Balaclava in the Crimean War, British cavalry units charged heavily fortified Russian opposition, an action known as the Charge of the Light Brigade. By mischance, they attacked the wrong target, as the orders were unclear, and as a result suffered great casualties. Alfred, Lord Tennyson's famous poem made the charge a symbol of warfare at both its most courageous and its most tragic.

Artist: William Simpson; Restoration: Adam Cuerden
ArchiveMore featured pictures...


Did someone get the "blunder'd" parts backwards?[edit]

The Intro to this article currently says: "even "tho' the soldier knew / Some one had blunder'd".".

Is that backwards?

The poem on Wikipedia -- if it is correct -- says:

"

'Forward, the Light Brigade!'

Was there a man dismay'd?

Not tho' the soldiers knew

  Some one had blunder'd:

"

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Charge_of_the_Light_Brigade_(poem)

"Not tho' ..."? The language of that seems ambiguous to me, not that I am an 1800s poetry scholar! LOL.


In any case, the Intro says "soldier", while the poem at the Wikipedia link above says "soldiers".

On the other hand, the External link http://www.ram.org/contrib/the_charge_of_the_light_brigade.html says "soldier" singular.


Unfortunately, the External link "Manuscript in Tennyson's handwriting Archive.org Link" is broken, apparently due to a redesigned, renamed Web site. Trying to go to http://etext.virginia.edu it goes somewhere else, and says, "Looking for the EText Center? The EText Center is now the Scholars' Lab".


Misty MH (talk) 09:14, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Misty MH (talk) 09:23, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I didn't notice this link as it was next to another in the "External links" section: http://web.archive.org/web/20070513072721/http://etext.virginia.edu/britpo/tennyson/TenChar.html It shows the poem in handwritten form. There, it appears that the word is "soldier" singular. :) Wondering whether another form says "soldiers" plural, and if we can get a link to that. :)
Misty MH (talk) 09:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Tennyson's manuscript : http://web.archive.org/web/20070407071840/http://etext.virginia.edu/britpo/tennyson/TenChar1.jpg seems like a definitive primary source. His handwriting is reasonably clear and the quote in the lead (which I added) conforms to it, so I don't think I blunder'd ... Straw Cat (talk) 11:02, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

A couple of concerns regarding the "Media representations" section in an otherwise good article.[edit]

"The 1936 version stars Errol Flynn and is completely historically inaccurate, turning the motive into a grudge match against an Indian ruler allied with the Russians.[22] The 1968 version, featuring David Hemmings (as Nolan) and Trevor Howard (as Cardigan), was much more factually accurate. It was produced during a time of public frustration over the Vietnam War, and in retrospect can be seen as a warning against military interventions in other lands, such as NATO's Kosovo War.[23]"

This sentence about the 1936 film doesn't read like a neutral Wikipedia entry, in my opinion.

The 1968 version was produced three decades before the Kosovo War. I think this is getting extremely off topic from the original article... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marsden4 (talkcontribs) 10:05, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

The off-topic policy says "just delete it". Be bold! --Old Moonraker (talk) 11:52, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Haha, ok, thank you very much. I've been here 3 years, but only ever edit about twice a year. (talkcontribs) 8:53, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

I'm travelling right now and I don't have access to the cited work, but AFAICR the point Connelly is making is one of critical commentary, and thus valid for inclusion. --Old Moonraker (talk) 08:12, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
The comments about NATO in Kosovo transferred to The Charge of the Light Brigade (1968 film). --Old Moonraker (talk) 10:34, 13 April 2012 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 December 2013[edit]

Addition of possessive apostrophe.

In the section Background, can you change the text "However, the lay of the land around Lucan and the cavalry prevented them from seeing the Russians efforts to remove the guns from the redoubts and retreat." to "However, the lay of the land around Lucan and the cavalry prevented them from seeing the Russians' efforts to remove the guns from the redoubts and retreat."? 82.23.253.61 (talk) 16:29, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

Done. --Stfg (talk) 18:20, 13 December 2013 (UTC)