Talk:Charles-Valentin Alkan

Etudes

I removed this sentence from the article:

These surpass even the Transcendental Etudes of Liszt in scale and difficulty.

"These" is referring to Alkan's etudes. I removed the sentence, because I have tried out Alkan's etudes and also know the Transcendental Etudes very well, and I don't think Alkans etudes come close to those by Liszt concerning difficulty, and in my opinion in musicality, too. Of course it depends on the abilities of the player, but I think one can generally say that Liszt's etudes are harder to play, which accounts especially for "Feux-Follets". - —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.144.162.251 (talk • contribs)

Wrong Alkan

I removed this paragraph from the article:

An interesting anecdote about Alkan's death: Supposedly he was reaching for his Torah on his bookshelf when it collapsed on top of him, killing him instantly.

This anecdote is about Charles-Valentin Alkan. Furthermore it is by many considered a myth. If anyone wants to write a couple of paragraphs about it in the correct article, do a Google Groups search for alkan bookshelf OR bookcase and you'll have plenty of research material.

Pladask 11:16, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)

---

Marcus2 moved this to Charles Henri Valentin Alkan, but I've moved it back here, as Alkan is hardly ever known by his full name (a quick check on Google will confirm this). --Camembert

Name Confusion

I have deleted the name "Henri" from the main article. Ronald Smith notes in his Alkan biography that there is no evidence of Alkan having the names "Henri" or "Victorin". He was registered as Charles-Valentin Morhange and soon adopted his father's name, "Alkan", as his last.

Regards, — AlkanSite

Ah, thanks for clearing this out. :-) — Pladask 23:43, 28 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sorabji link

I am puzzled by the claim that Sorabji "continues in Alkan's direction". Maybe so in his works' uncompromising difficulty, but I think this warrants further discussion at least - as it stands it gives a misleading idea of what to expect of Sorabji! I would favour removing the link from Alkan to Sorabji completely (although a link from Sorabji to Alkan does make sense). --RobertG 16:25, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Probably. (And outside of the Esquisses there is not much in Alkan like the constant use in Sorabji of Baroque textures/forms if applied to his own purposes... I think it's more accurate to say that Sorabji mostly 'followed' Busoni, Debussy, Bach via Busoni... and Alkan to a lesser extent if one considers his Frammenti Aforistici (sp?)...)

(continued.) Someone did make more of a case for a connection in a paper which I'm told was given to the Alkan Society but I don't have access to that; and Sorabji wasn't alone in admiring Alkan's work or promoting it in his music criticism of course, just at the time somewhat unusual. Schissel : bowl listen 12:46, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

Links trimmed

I trimmed the external links. alkan.bluestealth.com could not be found. chopinmusic.net gave a 404 error, and I can't find anything about Alkan on the site. Grove music, while estimable, is a subscription-only service (disclosure: I don't subscribe) and in any case the link wasn't to the Alkan entry. musicologie.org/ is in French, hence inappropriate for English Wikipedia. We only need one link to the Alkan society. I think orkut.com was spam with nothing to do with Alkan. --RobertG ♬ talk 10:13, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Alkan's death

It seems pretty clear now that the story of the bookcase and the Talmud is fictitious. The question is, how did Alkan die? The real story needs to have the primary focus in the "Death" section, with mention of the apocryphal tale being secondary. JackofOz 01:37, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

The article in the online New Grove only mentions that the story "seems to have no basis in truth." They mention that there is an account of his death in de Bertha: (A. de Bertha: ‘Ch. Valentin Alkan aîné: étude psycho-musicale’, BSIM, v (1909), 135–47) but give no further details. Interesting that this would have been around for a hundred years, but the bookshelf story has been the only one with legs. Heck, I believed it until I started writing for Wikipedia. Antandrus (talk) 02:04, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Me too, mate, me too. It's a lovely romantic story, and if it wasn't true, it should have been true. JackofOz 02:09, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

I believe Raymond Lewenthal wrote an article on this for the the Musical Times, but I wouldn't be able to relocate that given a year in which to find it. The link [1] does contain what I think did happen to Alkan, but is not itself sourced. (Only added to external links because of that old standby, "it's a start.") Schissel-nonLop! 03:04, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's three in the Musical Times:

H. Macdonald: ‘The Death of Alkan’, MT, cxiv (1973), 25 only

H. Macdonald: ‘The Enigma of Alkan’, MT, cxvii (1976), 401–2

H.J. Macdonald: ‘More on Alkan's death’, MT, cxxix (1988), 118–20

None of which I have immediate access to, alas. I can go to the UCSB library when it re-opens after the New Year. Antandrus (talk) 03:09, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

Cheers, buddy. Whenever. The truth is out there. JackofOz 03:17, 24 December 2005 (UTC)

for those who are interested:

MacDonald's articles reveal the following.

1) There is a letter from one of Alkan's pupils which revels that he was trapped beneath 'une porte-parapluie' (an umbrella-stand - seems even more bizarre than a bookcase).

2) Despite this letter it seems that Alkan died in bed of illness, possibly in hospital.

I belieive that this legend was in fact 'transferred' to Alkan. The following was communicated to me by Rabbi Meir Salasnik.

Aryeh Leib ben Asher Gunzberg (1695-1785) known as the Shaagat Aryeh (The Lion's Roar) after his book, was rabbi in various communities, lastly in Metz, and lived a very long life for those times.

There is a cute story that a few months before his death, he reached for a book and the bookcase fell on him. After about half an hour he was rescued. He informed them that he would die within the year. They asked him how he knew. He replied that while he was under the books, all the authors of previous rabbinical works he had disagreed with made their peace with him. One rabbi, who had lived a couple of centuries previously, would not make his peace with him. So, he knew he did not have much longer in this world.

I can't remember where I read this story.

We know that Alkan's family came from Metz. As Alkan was, in his way, as disputatious as Shaagat Aryeh, switching the story to him might be undesrtandable.

I am chasing this up and expect to write about it in the next issue of the Alkan Society Bulletin.

Best regards,

Smerus 25.Dec.2005

Hello. I used to be the Webmaster of a now defunct Website called The Alkan Site. One of the more worthwile pages on my site addressed the controversy behind Alkan's death. I emailed a conductor by the name of Mark Starr who kindly provided a detailed answer to the question. The following is the excerpt from my page.

The mystery of Alkan's death was resolved definitively about a decade ago by the French Societé Alkan. A French musicologist (possibly Brigitte Sappey) discovered a long detailed letter by one of Alkan's female piano students, who arrived at Alkan's teaching studio for her lesson just hours after Alkan had expired. In the letter she elaborates that Alkan did indeed fall and injure himself while he was trying to retrieve something on a shelf. He had climbed up on a hall coat-and-hat stand - a typical, large fixture in many 19th Century French homes. Alkan lost his balance and fell - and books did fall on top of him (the student's letter makes no mention of the Talmud). However, it was the fall and not the books that severely injured him.

Alkan did not die right away. A doctor was sent for, arrived, and began treating Alkan's injuries. But as the final portrait of Alkan makes clear, by 1888 he was a very frail, old man. He eventually succumbed to his injuries and died several hours later.

The gothic detail of Alkan having been crushed by his copy of the Talmud appears to be a colorful invention of one of the pianists in Alkan's small circle of friends, probably Isidor Philip. In poor health in his final years, Alkan already knew his days were numbered. In the few months preceding his death, he got all his affairs in order -- including the making of an incredibly detailed will. He also had his manuscripts bound in leather (these invaluable documents have disappeared, never yet to surface.)

The amusing detail about the Talmud is apocryphal. Instead of complaining about the fabrication of this detail, it is better to be grateful to whoever made it up. Limited as Alkan's fame has been in the past, this is the one factoid that has spread his renown among the general public and even among musicians. The more interest in Alkan, and the more people that remember his name (and listen to his music), the better. - Mark Starr

Thanks for reading. --AlkanSite 06:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

So it was half-true after all. It seems a shame to burst all those bubbles now, just for the sake of silly old truth. (Moral dilemma ... what to do?) Thanks for this very enlightening information. JackofOz 08:43, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

How did he die? It still remains a semi-interesting question. The bookcase story is probably not true as there is evidence for it not being true. But it is evidence (and good evidence!) and not proof. So often one sees the confusion between what is evidence and what is proof, just as there is general confusion between what is not true and what is likely not true. 75.48.30.93 (talk) 05:25, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Composer project review

I've reviewed this article as part of the Composers project review of its B-class articles. It's a pretty good B-class article, but a few things bothered me. They're detailed in my review on the comments page; questions and comments should be left here or on my talk page. Magic♪piano 02:21, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Chopin's death causing Alkan's seclusion?

I removed - perhaps temporarily - the claim that the death of Chopin might have contributed to Alkan's return to seclusion, because it doesn't seem to fit the narrative, which points out that after Chopin's death his students went to study with Alkan. The dating is not clear, either. How long after Chopin's death did Alkan retire into seclusion? Did he teach those students for only a few months, then retire? At the least, I think the narrative needs to be recast to eliminate the apparent discrepancy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deschreiber (talk • contribs) 13:23, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Alkan's letter of 1850 to his friend Masarnau clearly states his depression after Chopin's death and that it has led to his dissatisfaction with life in general. I will think about the right way to include this in the text.--Smerus (talk) 15:42, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

Fanelli

I'm surprised by the vehemence of Smerus's reversion. This is assertion derives from the new Grove. Personally, I think Fanelli is crap, but that's beside the point. I've just taken the trouble to write an article on him and have done my best to source it according to WP:V. Per WP:ORPHAN I introduced links in other articles, including this one. The reality is that stories about Fanelli are full of fantasy and unsubstantiatec romour, but what sources say is what they say. Paul B (talk) 00:05, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

But even sources can be demonstrably wrong, as indicated :-} --Smerus (talk) 13:57, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

The name Alkan

This was originally his father's given name. But where does it come from? Is it related to Alcuin? Or perhaps Harlequin (in French, Arlequin)? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:41, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

No it's an ancient Jewish name (= Elkanan)--Smerus (talk) 05:32, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. How do we know this? -- JackofOz (talk) 08:56, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

read my book on Alkan when it's published next year :-}--Smerus (talk) 14:25, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

LOL! --Jubilee♫clipman 19:37, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Marcia funèbre

Is that title correct? The first word is Italian; the second, French. Varlaam (talk) 17:53, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Well spotted - second word should be 'funebre' without the accent, Italian feminine of the adjective is with an 'e'. (Checked in Grove).--Smerus (talk) 20:12, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Cf. Capriccio Espagnol and Capriccio Italien - first word Italian, second word French. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:24, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

'Selected Recordings'

User:Varlaam has suggested adding a section of recordings. Actually his proposed heading was 'selected recordings' but we don't seem to have any agreed method of 'selection'. Moreover his proposal was a recording of Alkan's chamber works which is is no longer avaialble and is not notable for any positive critical reception. This is not especially representative of the composer and would not be especially helpful for WP readers. I am seeking therefore to start with this comment some disucssion and proposals as to what recordings it might be appropriate and useful to mention in the article, and on what basis they would be 'selected'. Thanks, --Smerus (talk) 19:09, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

• It would have to be a list of recording that are clearly notable in and of themselves and that are somehow important to our understanding of Alkan as a person, performer, or composer. The page is about his life and works, after all, rather than recordings of his works --Jubilee♫clipman 19:35, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

• so then, maybe, the pioneering recordings of Lewenthal and Ronald Smith, and then a smattering of Hamelin?--Smerus (talk) 20:17, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

• Yes pioneering works do make sense: they help contextualise the way Alkan as composer has been received by musicians and presented to the general public for consumption. Important later recording do the same. Workaday recordings that simply add to the repertoire are not of so much help in this respect. Does that make sense? --Jubilee♫clipman 21:01, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

I created this section specifically for the chamber CD, since neither I, who have been listening to this guy for decades, nor the regular staff member in the classical section knew there was Alkan chamber music.

And, now, neither does anybody else since you deleted that recording. Bis.

It is notable due to the fact that it's chamber, just as Beethoven's Kazoo Symphony will be notable when it is discovered in my attic next week.

Varlaam (talk) 17:33, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes but it was pretty useless adding a recording which was unavailable. I will remedy this.--Smerus (talk) 17:42, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

PS can't wait for the kazoo symphony.--Smerus (talk) 17:50, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Top line or first space??

We normally place the F♯ in the treble clef on the top line, but he placed it on the first space. Why?? Georgia guy (talk) 00:09, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Blame this on French music engraving practices of the period, not on the composer! --Smerus 08:10, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

You mean, it was standard at that time for F♯ in the treble clef to go on the first space?? Georgia guy (talk) 12:24, 2 October 2011 (UTC}

I mean that Alkan did not engrave his own music. The placing of the F sharp cannot be attributed to him.--Smerus 21:50, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Progressing this article

I am starting to clean up the article in preparation for a rewrite, with the aim of making it at least a WP 'good' article by the time of Alkan's bicentenary (2013). Any contributions/opinions would be greatly welcomed. All areas of the article are somewhat scrappy or lack focus at the moment.--Smerus (talk) 05:56, 28 January 2012 (UTC)