Talk:Charles Dodgson (priest)

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Title of article[edit]

The correct title for this article is Charles Dodgson (archdeacon), not Charles Dodgson (priest). It is clearly deprecating someone who reached the high rank of archdeacon to deny him that title in the article title. The following reliable sources, among others, refer to him as Archdeacon Dodgson or Archdeacon Charles Dodgson. I know of no reliable source that refers to him as a priest. Are there any?

Amor, Anne Clark (1990): Letters to Skeffington Dodgson from his Father
Amor, Anne Clark (1995): Lewis Carroll, Child of the North
Bakewell, Michael (1996): Lewis Carroll: a biography
Clark, Anne (1979) Lewis Carroll: A Biography
Cohen, Morton N. (1995): Lewis Carroll: a biography
Hudson, Derek (1977): Lewis Carroll (2nd ed.)
Lennon, Florence Becker (1972): The Life of Lewis Carroll
Lewis Carroll Society (1973): Mr Dodgson, Nine Lewis Carroll Studies
Lucas, E. V. (1901): "Dodgson, Charles Lutwidge", Dictionary of National Biography
Pudney, John (1976): Lewis Carroll and His World
Reed, Langford (1932): The Life of Lewis Carroll

It is claimed that because he was a Church of England clergyman he was therefore a priest. This is original research, unless there are reliable sources that explicitly call him a priest. In any case, were we to follow that logic the article Charles Dodgson (bishop) would also need to have that title.

Please do not rename the article again unless and until reliable sources can be found to demonstrate that he was ever referred to as a priest.--Collingwood (talk) 19:53, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You badly need to read up on how these things work. I'll help out by giving a summary: the Church of England has three orders (into which one is "ordained") – deacon, priest and bishop. The vast majority of Anglican clergy are priests. Canon law states that a person must have been a priest for a certain amount of time before they may be appointed archdeacon. Therefore, this Dodgson was a priest – that was his order and an appropriate dab phrase for his article's title; whereas (archdeacon) on its own is not, because he was (for a while) the Archdeacon of Richmond, not an archdeacon. (Archdeacon of Richmond) would be used if we had to dab him from another priest, but as it is, we do not. Mutatis mutandis for the bishop of the same name. You should read WP:NCDAB – it states:

Parenthetical disambiguation. A disambiguating word or phrase can be added in parentheses. The word or phrase in parentheses should be: the generic class [e.g. (element) or (mammal) ...]
If there are several possible choices for parenthetical disambiguation, use the same disambiguating phrase already commonly used for other topics within the same class and context, if any.

Re: point one, notice that (element) is preferred over (metal) and (mammal) over (sea mammal). Re: point two, notice that I have already shown you that this page is the only page on the 'paedia containing (archdeacon).

QED.

Kindly move the page back to (priest). D B D 22:34, 8 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Also, since one of the sources is written by a Stuart Dodgson Collingwood, would you like to declare an interest? D B D 08:31, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Notice: This page has now been protected from being moved. This is not to be considered an endorsement of its current title, only a condemnation of all this switching back and forth. Discuss the issue, don't keep trying to change things behind each other's backs. When you've come to an understanding, then we can see about moving.

That goes for both of you: It doesn't matter how certain you are that your version is the correct one, making a change to the page that you know the other guy is just going to revert is perpetuating the revert-war, and that's not good behaviour. Step back, and try to discuss it; if that means the incorrect version sits there for a while until the discussion is settled, that's the price for avoiding a content thrash that wasted everybody's time and effort. — Paul A (talk) 01:23, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Sir, for your intervention. You will however see that we were already discussing – because I know better than to revert a third time (or to revert once it has become clear that an editor has thoroughly convinced herself of her position), so your actions may prove unnecessary. D B D 08:11, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My thanks too. I have only asked two things from DBD, and so far he has provided neither. One is a link to the policy he mentions on my talk page, under which the present title is against policy. So far, he has only cited a guideline, not a policy, and the guideline explicitly states that "it is best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply". The other is a reliable source from a reputable authority (as opposed to a piece of original research) that explicitly says that Archdeacon Dodgson was a priest. Once he has done both of these simple things, we can probably agree quite rapidly on the rename.

I note he says "Also, since one of the sources is written by a Stuart Dodgson Collingwood, would you like to declare an interest?" This is odd, as I did not cite any sources by S. D. Collingwood. If he believes that I have a conflict of interest, can he please raise it at the appropriate place. But as he mentions Collingwood, he is no doubt aware that Collingwood was Archdeacon Dodgson's grandson, that his father and some of his uncles were Church of England ministers and that he studied theology at Christ Church, Oxford. Thus it is unlikely that he did not know Archdeacon Dodgson's status or the rules of the Church of England. Yet nowhere does Collingwood describe him as a priest.

DBD suggests that "(Archdeacon of Richmond) would be used if we had to dab him from another priest". This seems to go against the guideline that he cites, which says "(avoiding proper nouns, as much as possible)".--Collingwood (talk) 19:08, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

--Collingwood (talk) 19:08, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well, this is interesting. I thought I had made good arguments. (Hence QED :P) Could someone neutral please summon some more contributors to this discussion? D B D 20:49, 9 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (clergy) has guidelines for those with higher ecclesiastical titles (popes, patriarchs, cardinals, (arch)bishops, etc.), but does not have any for the lower titles (deacons, priests, archdeacons, deans, etc.). So there is no ruling on how to disambiguate someone with a lower title. It may be an idea to discuss guidelines/policy for those lower titles on Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (clergy) and possibly come to consensus on them. Scrivener-uki (talk) 11:22, 10 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 May 2016[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved as proposed. SST flyer 11:45, 8 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Charles Dodgson (archdeacon) → Charles Dodgson (priest) – To address the page's anomalous situation ({priest} is consistently used as a dab phrase but never {archdeacon} because in the CofE at least one is a priest but The Archdeacon of Wherever); and for the reasons discussed above, nigh four years ago. DBD 17:15, 22 May 2016 (UTC) — relisted by user:SSTflyer at 09:57, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support the move: Charles Dodgson (priest) is the best way of disambiguating this article. Wayne Jayes (talk) 20:43, 22 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Support. No need to relist here, SSTflyer, consensus is that it should be moved. I've opened a request at WP:RPP for it to be unprotected; I was gonna accept this yesterday. Anarchyte (work | talk) 10:46, 30 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Support – "Archdeacon" is not typically used for disambiguation. Graham (talk) 20:31, 2 June 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Alumni Oxonienses[edit]

The Foster ref is actually to the wrong page. The correct article is s:Alumni Oxonienses: the Members of the University of Oxford, 1715-1886/Dodgson, Charles, which really should be linked to. I don't know that the harv function copes with this kind of interwiki: if it doesn't, then it is a black mark against the system, in my view. Charles Matthews (talk) 16:31, 17 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]