Talk:Charles I of Naples

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Charles the ? of ??[edit]

OK, royalty/nobility experts, this is technically off-topic but since you're gathered here, I need some advice about what seems to me to be a more serious naming convention issue than the above. There is an article called Charles I of Sicily. The bold first mention is "Charles of Anjou . . . also Charles I of Sicily." So far so good. It also says, however, that "he was King of Sicily 1262–1282 (and under that title, King of Naples 1282–1285)." And, among other things, count of Anjou.

Charles I's successor has an article called Charles II of Naples. Are we getting worried yet? The intro says he was king of Naples and Sicily, as well as count of Anjou, but apparently he was never crowned King of Sicily (and the info box at the end doesn't mention Sicily). In the article on Kings of Sicily, however, it says that the Kingdom of Naples was actually an informal name and that the Kingdom of Sicily was the official name even though it didn't include Sicily anymore. (For more than a century there was another King of Sicily who actually ruled Sicily.) There is also a Charles III of the Neapolitan Sicily, whose article is titled Charles III of Naples .

Charles II's successor as count of Anjou is listed in the info box as Charles III. Charles III has an article called Charles of Valois. The bold first mention is "Charles III of Valois," but Valois didn't even enter the picture with respect to Charles I or II. In fact, he was the first count of Valois. He seems to have been the third Charles to be count of Anjou.

Charles III's nephew was Charles IV of France, but this is merely coincidence, as Charles III of France is from the 800s.

Anybody want to jump in here? It appears to me that Charles of Valois should be bold-first-mentioned as "Charles of Valois" and "Charles III, count of Anjou". I'm not sure what to do about Naples and Sicily.Aldrichio 15:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I edited leads at Charles I of Sicily and Charles of Valois. Does that clear it up? Srnec 16:24, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I think so. Nicely done.Aldrichio 16:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I've moved Charles I of Sicily to Charles I of Naples. Although he and his heirs claimed to be Kings of 'Sicily', common practice is to denote them as Kings of 'Naples': Charles I was King of Sicily for most of his life, but he was not King of what is now termed the post vespers Kingdom of Sicily when he died. That, and the continuity between him and his heirs (Charles II, Charles III), means the article should be under Charles I of Naples). Michael Sanders 16:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
That's a big move to make unilaterally. But I don't oppose it. Who's going to fix the redirects? Srnec 16:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

It makes sense to me. Readers will be less confused.Eldredo19:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a big fan of the move, but whatever. Why are we discussing this here? john k 20:38, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Hum. Like John, I can't say I approve of the move. Charles, after all, did reign over both Sicily and Naples, the only one of his house to do so. The fact that Sicily was in revolt at the time of his death, a situation later recognized by the Treaty of Caltabellotta, doesn't diminish that. Edward VIII of the United Kingdom is where he is, not at "Edward, Duke of Windsor". Choess 03:11, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Because Edward didn't continue to reign as a monarch ("Former or deposed monarchs should be referred to by their previous monarchical title with the exception of those who are still alive and are most commonly referred to by a non-monarchical title; all former or deposed monarchs should revert to their previous monarchical title upon death"). Although the naming conventions don't specifically address the issue of monarchs who were booted off one throne but retained another, Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles) tells us to "Take care to use the correct name of the state at the time when a monarch reigned" and that "if an obscure official name of a state exists alongside a clearly understood one, it is fine to use the more widely known version. For example, Kings of Greece rather than the technically correct Kings of the Hellenes." Although the Angevin realm in Southern Italy was formally called the 'Kingdom of Sicily', the post-vespers realm is historically termed the 'Kingdom of Naples' - thus, using a 'clearly understood' name alongside 'an obscure official one' (obscure because readers expect 'the Kingdom of Sicily' to refer to the co-existent 'Kingdom of Trinacria'). In this case, Charles had been ousted entirely from the island, and another man crowned king and ruling in his place; whilst he continued his pretensions after 1282, by the time of his death he was definitely not 'King of Sicily' in the sense understood by modern readers, but only in the sense that his son was also 'King of Sicily' - and Charles II is termed 'King of Naples' to the modern reader. I also fail to see the relevance of Charles reigning over both Naples and Sicily (and the fact that he was the only one of his house to do so is supremely irrelevant, since we are not writing to glorify the House of Anjou), since he was not doing so at the time of his death. Michael Sanders 08:14, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Describing Charles as "booted off one throne but retaining another" is inaccurate. In 1130 the Kingdom of Sicily was created. It contained both the island of Sicily and all of Italy south of the Papal States. This entire kingdom was granted by the Pope to Charles of Anjou in 1262, conquered by him in 126, and held by him against Conradin's challenge in 1268. In 1282, one particular portion of his kingdom, the island of Sicily, rebelled against him, overthrew his rule, and brought in the King of Aragon to be king. The situation after 1282, then, is not that Charles was booted from his throne. It is that Charles was expelled from part of his kingdom, which then set up its own, new, kingship under the House of Aragon. The throne t hat Charles held after 1282 was precisely the same one he had held before 1282, he just didn't control the whole territory that he claimed, and, confusingly, the particularly area that he didn't control happened to be the one for which the kingdom was named. Because of this confusion, Charles's successors came to be known informally as "Kings of Naples," so as to distinguish the continental Kingdom of Sicily from the insular Kingdom of Sicily. But, nonetheless, Charles was expelled from no thrones, and he and his successors remained properly Kings of Sicily down to the creation of the unified Kingdom of the Two Sicilies in 1816 (with the exception of the period of rule of Joseph Bonaparte and Joachim Murat in Naples, who were formally called "King of Naples," a title which was also formally given, I believe, to the future Philip II of Spain immediately before his marriage to Mary Tudor.) Anyway, the basic point is that there were not two crowns in southern Italy until the Sicilians offered a new Sicilian crown to Pedro of Aragon. Certainly, use of "King of Naples" before the Angevins actually recognized the independence of the island in 1302 seems inappropriate. Using 1302, rather than 1282, as the breaking point seems appropriate here, and would result in the old article title locations - Charles I of Sicily is followed by Charles II of Naples. john k 16:45, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
It's also worth noting that, at the time, the kings of insular Sicily were generally called Kings of Trinacria, and that "King of Sicily" continued to generally be assumed to refer to the monarch ruling in Naples for some time after 1302. john k 16:46, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Nonetheless, the Kingdom north of the Straits is commonly described as the 'Kingdom of Naples'. It is true that, technically, the Angevins were named 'King of Sicily' and the Aragonese named 'King of Trinacria'; however, the division between the two is made at the division of one into two crowns, when Charles I - by modern standards - ceased to be 'King of the island of Sicily', and remained only 'King of the mainland around Naples'. Michael Sanders 17:01, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I don't claim any special knowledge of royalty nomenclature, but my two cents, for whatever it's worth, is that, unless there's a good reason not to, it's preferable to have all the King Charleses (or Jameses or Richards or whoever) who are in the same line of I, II, III, etc. to have the same title. Otherwise, the average reader will go, as I did, "What the heck is going on here?" At the same time, I recognize that there are situations where that doesn't necessarily work. The current situation could be one of them. Or it might make more sense to call them all Kings of Sicily, and then explain why there are two simultaneous Kings of Sicily, like popes and antipopes. Or maybe it makes sense to keep calling all of them Kings of Naples, based on the idea that that's how they became informally known and that, even though the first one didn't actually use that title even informally, it's OK from a realist perspective to give it to him. All I'm saying is that if the consensus is that there's a decent rationale for going with all-Naples or all-Sicily, it seems to me that the one-name-fits-all solution is substantially preferable to mixing them up.Eldredo01:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

I think it makes more sense to refer to all of the Angevin Neopolitans as 'King of Naples' - that is what the post-1282 Kingdom is called, and the Manual of Style quite specifically advocates an understandable style over a 'correct' but unfamiliar or confusing style (e.g. 'King of Greece' over 'King of the Hellenes'). In this case, the peninsular kingdom is always termed 'Kingdom of Naples', so readers will expect to see the Kings listed under there; it will moreover be fantastically confusing to anyone if there are two co-existant sets of 'Kings of Sicily', with one set not even ruling in what is commonly termed the 'Kingdom of Sicily'. It's bad enough that there are two sets of Kings of Naples. Michael Sanders 11:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Certainly from Charles II onwards we should use "of Naples." For Charles I, who did rule Sicily for most of his reign, and who never recognized his loss of that island, which was not clearly permanent at the time of his death, I'd prefer to use "of Sicily." And it's not always possible to number the same way. In this case, I'd prefer to stick with "of Sicily". I agree with Michael that using "of Sicily" for everyone would be deeply confusing. john k 15:15, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't see it as particularly relevant either that he did not recognise his deposition on the Island of Sicily (clarity there), or that it was not clearly permanent at that time - the point remains that it was permanent, and that when he died he was King only of what is today termed the "Kingdom of Naples". That, and simple encyclopaedic pragmatism (Charles I of Naples succeeded by Charles II of Naples), suggests that 'Charles I of Naples' is the better article title. Alternatively, is he more commonly known by either of those titles, or as "Charles of Anjou"? Michael Sanders 16:02, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
"Charles of Anjou" is certainly the name by which he is most commonly known. john k 16:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
BTW, as far as precedence for deposed monarchs who continue to also be monarchs goes, we do have Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor. That would seem a fairly clear precedent for Charles I of Sicily. Charles was King of Sicily for 16 years. He ruled over just the mainland for only 3. There seems a fairly strong case for putting the title he actually used throughout his reign, and which actually matched his real power for the longest period, as well. john k 16:14, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
The reasoning for Francis II appears from his discussion page to be that if he was referred to as 'Francis I of Austria', the readers would get him confused with his grandfather, the Holy Roman Emperor Francis I who was also married to the monarch of Austria. The same cannot be said here - indeed, the precedent set by Francis II/I appears to be "go with the simplest and least confusing title" - which, here, is "Charles I of Naples" rather than "Charles I of Sicily", since the latter entails long and complex explanations about the complexities of south Italian history.
Possibly it would be simplest to survey a move to "Charles of Anjou", if that is the most common name. Michael Sanders 16:22, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Charles of Anjou is, on the other hand, mildly ambiguous and also against naming conventions. But it still might be the best title. I'm not sure. john k 19:39, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I could go for that. Anjou was a rather minor title for the second and third Charleses, and the fourth seems usually to be known by his previous title, the Count of Maine. (And you cannot imagine how aggrieved mortified I am to have been tagged as a Guelph.) Choess 04:11, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Charles of Anjou sounds good to me. It has the virtue of not leading the reader to look for that next numeral in the series and being disappointed when he doesn't find one that matches up. (Not that I would insist that this should be avoided in every case, but if it can, that's a point in favor of the solution.) Eldredo18:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)

Regent of France?[edit]

The article claims that "In November 1252, the death of his mother Blanche of Castile caused him [Charles] to go north to Paris and assume the joint regency of the kingdom with his brother Alphonse." However, according the article "Louis IX of France", Louis was born in 1215 hence in 1252 he was 37, quite capable of ruling by himself. Moreover, the later article asserts that "His contemporaries viewed his reign as co-rule between the king and his mother, though historians generally view the year 1234 as the year in which Louis ruled as king with his mother assuming a more advisory role", that is, Louis became the de facto ruler 18 years before the supposed regency of Charles.

A similar problem is present in the article "Simon de Monfort" (see the talk page there)

Maybe France needed a regent because Louis IX was off on a crusade?

Top.Squark 16:56, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Louis IX was off on crusade until 1254. john k 18:21, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Coinage[edit]

Charles, king of Sicily. Cabinet des Médailles.

Here's a coin of Charles, king of Sicily. Feel free to insert it in the article. PHG (talk) 19:45, 13 February 2009 (UTC)