Talk:Chełmno extermination camp

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Military history (Rated Start-Class)
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality assessment scale.
WikiProject Correction and Detention Facilities (Rated C-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Correction and Detention Facilities, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Correction and Detention Facilities articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Germany (Rated Start-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
Checklist icon
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Poland (Rated Start-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Poland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Poland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
Start-Class article Start  This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

OTRS[edit]

This article contains content uploaded by the USHMM. See OTRS ticket 2007071910012533 for details.

??[edit]

hi im looking for advice for a project i have to pretend like im going to a concentration camp and have to pack a light bag containing what i think ill need in the camp!! help please


dcbabe1313

I don't think they had much to take from a Getto. It really depends on who's perspective? A Jew, a Gypsy...a Pole. A mother, a father, a child.... suggest you imagine yourself as a child and remember what was most important to you then. Devoid of race, religion. It's about the core, the immediate emotion of leaving everything..and having perhaps 2 minutes to collect those things that you love the most. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.158.46.20 (talk) 17:17, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Driver?[edit]

"I then drove the van back to the castle " Should it be "He then drove the van back to the castle" ? Rich Farmbrough 13:00, 28 November 2005 (UTC)

No, it's a quote. 193.157.228.182 (talk) 00:07, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Eichmann's purported comments[edit]

The comments attributed to Adolf Eichmann need to be correctly sourced and referenced. Kingsbury 22:00, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

Chełmno extermination camp[edit]

Such camp has never existed, the name was Kulmhof.

There is Auschwitz concentration camp, even if the place is called in Polish Oświęcim. Xx236 06:58, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

This should be moved back - in English language histories, the name Chełmno is invariably used. In common usage, the camp complex at Auschwitz/Oświęcim settled on the German version of the name, the one at Chełmno/Kulmhof on the Polish. Is this inconsistent? Yes. But the page-naming policy is to use the most commonly-recognised term. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 10:52, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I've moved it back. The common name in English is "Chelmno extermination camp". English Wikipedia uses common English names. Jayjg (talk) 22:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Chelmno extermination camp has never existed. Even English language isn't able to create virtual objects. The article should include German name of the camp - it doesn't.Xx236 10:42, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

There was a death camp, it is named after the nearby village, which has both German and Polish names. The name that is in common use in English for the death camp is the Polish one, Chełmno. That is what the article should have in its title, to conform with usage by historians. You are wrong that the article doesn't include the German name, it includes it in the very first sentence. Squiddy | (squirt ink?) 12:27, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The article doesn't inform what was the real German name of the camp. The staff was called SS Sonderkommando Kulmhof.Xx236 14:35, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

It does now. Jayjg (talk) 19:09, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The problem is more complicated. I bet the Nazis haven't used the name "Vernichtungslager Kulmhof", it's a post-war German name. The same Auschwitz concentration camp informs that Auschwitz II (Birkenau) was "an extermination camp or Vernichtungslager".Xx236 10:18, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree the German name should be used. Besides, "Chelmno" isn't even the Polish word. --Offensiveword (talk) 16:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

The castle[edit]

deathcamps.org/occupation/chelmno.html writes "manor house". Xx236 07:03, 28 July 2006 (UTC)


Any details of this castle?159.105.80.141 15:09, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Operation of the Camp: word "Plunder".[edit]

The first paragraph states: "....an administration section, barracks and storage for plundered goods;"

I would use "plundered" only if the the goods were stolen violently from the houses of the victims. As this storage probably was for goods stolen from the victims at arrival I think the word "stolen" would be better.

Your opinion is appreciated before I would like to change this. Pukkie 06:39, 8 December 2006 (UTC)


Did Mr Burmeister ever tell where the burial site was. If it was done in vans then there must have been an awful lot of trips made to the woods - the trail must still exist. A good chance for forensic verification.159.105.80.141 12:20, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

boner )

Please help me to move this article (December 2009)[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

Since I'm not an administrator, I can't move it. For a person who doesn't know Polish, it may seem to be a small detail, but this is fundamental in Polish phonology. The name of this camp is Chełmno extermination camp and as I told you, the difference between Chełmno and Chelmno is fundamental. Calle Widmann (talk) 06:31, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, you are completely right in your thinking about the name change. I'm going to try contacting an admin about it.Hoops gza (talk) 14:10, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Superceded by move requested March 2011

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Requested Move (September 2010)[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.
Superceded by 2011 March move request

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


Two or three survivors?[edit]

According to a number of sources, there were two known survivors of Chelmno: Mordechaï Podchlebnik and Simon Srebnik. In the article on Sara Roy, it says "Her father, Abraham, was one of the two known survivors of the Chelmno extermination camp". Then, in the article on Simon Srebnik, it says he "was one of three people to survive the Nazi German death camp of Chelmno". Were there two or three survivors, and was Sara Roy's father one of them? Shoplifter (talk) 05:46, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

The Simon Srebnik article said 2 when I went to look at it. The reference in Sara Roy is to a book called Prophets Outcast; you can search inside at Amazon and the relevant pages are 344 ("my father, Abraham)-345("My father's name was recognized in Holocaust circles because he was one of two known survivors of the death camp at Chelmno"). From the credits of that book, I find that this was reprinted from Sara Roy, "Living with the Holocaust: The Journey of a Child of Holocaust Survivors", Journal of Palestine Studies (32):1, 2002]; it was given as a lecture previously. Roy, Sara (Fall 2002). "Living with the Holocaust: The Journey of a Child of Holocaust Survivors". Journal of Palestine Studies (Institute for Palestine Studies) (125). Retrieved 2008-12-28. , reprinted in Shatz, Adam (2004). Prophets Outcast: a Century of Dissident Jewish Writing About Zionism and Israel. NationBooks. pp. 343–356. ISBN 9781560255093. 
I think this needs further investigation. I also can't explain why the Polish museum, Chelmno talks about Michał Podchlebnik rather than Mordechaï Podchlebnik, either. Do you know Sara Roy's father's full name? Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 10:50, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
And the article on Shoah_(film) says that the two known survivors were interviewed. Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 10:51, 1 September 2010 (UTC)
Seems like someone has made the call that the three survivors were Mordechaï Podchlebnik, Simon Srebnik and Mordechaï Zurawski. This has been implemented in the relevant articles (not by me), but the article on Sara Roy still says her father was one of two survivors. And still, there is no sourcing for any of these claims. I've not been able to find the full name of Roy's father, but she does claim that he was one of the survivors herself, see [1]. I think the best way to deal with this is to make a new section called "Survivors" and relay that the exact number is disputed, pointing to the disparate claims in works on the topic. Shoplifter (talk) 14:21, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
I think that's reasonable. The museum at the site would be the most authoritative source, I think, if there's info available from them. Perhaps asking for help on the Polish language version page would help. I did eventually figure out that Michał and Mordechaï are both versions of the same name. Jodi.a.schneider (talk) 19:18, 3 December 2010 (UTC)
Okay, I've tried to set the record straight according to the information available. I'm guessing that Lanzmann's Shoah is the source for the claim that there were two survivors; I've seen the film referenced in a number of sources. I can't explain Roy's assertion, obviously I don't think she's being untruthful. It might be some kind of name or translaton mishap. Shoplifter (talk) 15:38, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
It appears that Roy's father was "Avram Roj," documented under that name and listed in this article by the Holocaust Encyclopedia as one of the seven escapees from Chelmo. Avram is Hebrew for Abraham. Roj was probably changed to Roy after the war, or a variation in spelling. Perhaps he got "lost" in the later count as he, unlike the other three survivors, did not seem to have testified in any of the postwar trials of 1945 and the early 1960s. Her memoir and the encyclopedia provide two sources for his survival. Parkwells (talk) 15:11, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Requested move (March 2011)[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Arbitrarily0 (talk) 00:02, 5 April 2011 (UTC)


Chelmno extermination campChełmno extermination camp — There should be no great debate about this. The difference between these two terms is fundamental. This is a change to the Polish name. The Polish name is the one that is used invariably by historians. As you can see, the Polish name is already the name that is used throughout the article and, indeed, throughout Wikipedia wherever this place is referenced.Hoops gza (talk) 14:23, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

Is there something else I'm supposed to do with this?Hoops gza (talk) 17:48, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

You wait the required waiting period, and someone will come around and determine what the consensus is, from the volunteers at WP:RM. If it is not closed in about two weeks, you can prod for a response at WT:RM. 65.93.12.101 (talk) 21:43, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Chelmno Gas Van.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

Image-x-generic.svg An image used in this article, File:Chelmno Gas Van.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests August 2011
What should I do?

Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so.

  • If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use)
  • If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used.

This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 10:49, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Needs reorganization[edit]

The article needs reorganization about operations and dates, as much information is repeated, in some cases up to three times, and it gets confusing. Parkwells (talk) 15:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

SS-Unterscharfuehrer[edit]

"not to be confused with the camp's SS-Unterscharfuehrer..."

That's a corporal. Although it sounds very important with the word fuehrer, was there only one SS-Unterscharfuehrer in the camp? פשוט pashute ♫ (talk) 20:42, 10 September 2013 (UTC)