Talk:Chely Wright

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Discography[edit]

I will be adding more detailed information about her discography in the coming days. It will mostly expand the singles section and add some official chart positions from Billboard.com.

Advertising / PoV[edit]

Check out (promotional video link removed), about how she supports the troops. -LtNOWIS 02:29, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

This isn't ad space my friend. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.140.0.3 (talk) 06:27, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Deleted the pr on the upcoming release of a book for tomorrow. It reads as if she wrote the wikipage for pr. Whoever wrote this entry needs to clean it up/rewrite it -this is not an adpage. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.190.135.217 (talk) 18:30, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

k.d. lang information[edit]

I see you restored my edits- which is another reason I don't trust wiki much these days. Seems like a pr machine more than an info site. Whatever. That also gave me a lower opinion of this so called coming out. Well timed publicity- thank God for KD Lang-she was the first to come out- how easily forgotten. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.190.135.217 (talk) 18:35, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Try reading closer. They are saying Wright is the first MAJOR country music star to come out. Major seems to be the word you keep skipping over. Lang was a fairly minor artist. Won a couple of awards, but it didn't translate into the commercial success that Wright has achieved. Regardless, the NY Post and the Boston Herald are reliable sources. You aren't. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:41, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
What !!?? You are joking. Surely. KD Lang has won 4 Grammys (one being best country vocal performance) and has many other nominations. She is about as major as they come - and one of the best singers out there. Her records have sold in the millions-topping the charts for decades. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.190.135.217 (talk) 18:47, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
No, I'm not kidding. I already said she won a couple of awards. She won 2 as a country artist. Then everything else was as a POP artist.After her 2 country Grammy's, both of which were BEFORE she came out as a lesbian, she was never even nominated in country categories. In other words, she crossed over and abandoned country music. And Wright, who has achieved more commercial success (in terms of charting) than Lang did in country music, has never left country music. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
She came out in 1992 - and she released Even Cowgirls get the Blues in 1993....if that does not say she is still appealing to country audience after she came out then I don't know what else does. But whatever. You obviously are invested in this. I just think it does a great disservice to KD Lang.
Right......she came out in 92, she made Cowgirls in 93....and it was not a country album. It was a movie soundtrack for a film of the same name. The album only made it to #82 in the US. The record didn't even go gold, where her previous 3 went gold or platinum in the US. In that same year, she got Grammy nominations as a POP artist. 1990, last nomination in country. 1992, she came out. Never got a nomination or had success with country after that....because she switched to pop. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:08, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I honestly never had heard of Chely Wright until she came out-so good for her-now I know of her -a gay C& W singer. But not the first gay C&W singer. You may have a hard time seeing it that way-but the rest of the world has heard of KD Lang. And has paid for her records for over 20 years now (she has sold millions upon millions with best of collections). I suppose you will be telling me that Lyle Lovett is not C& W either. Now if you want to say KD Lang is not country as in Grand Ol Opry- fine- but she is the reincarnate of Patsy Cline-no matter where she plays. That is her voice. She is the quintessential country and western crooner. The audience does not change that. sigh...... Now sadly- I see this as a big marketing campaign for Wright's upcoming book and album- and I had never heard of her before...so they are hoping that people outside of C&W world will buybuybuy. As for who is correct here(not Wright)-you can use this argument 20 years after Wright has emerged from the closet. Until then- the future is too difficult to predict to dismiss KD Lang. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.190.135.217 (talk) 19:23, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
It really doesn't matter much if you heard of her before or not. That's an irrelevant point of discussion. This isn't about who heard of whom. I've tried to explain it, but that doesn't matter either. The reliable sources said it. Go complain to them. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
The question of whether k d lang is country enough, major enough, or mainstream enough for the claim that Chely Wright is the first major, mainstream country singer to be openly gay is one that is being discussed in a number of media reports. A good Wikipedia editor does not offer their own opinion on the issue and push for the article to reflect it. A good Wikipedia editor finds reliable sources that assess these claims and reports the results on the Wikipedia page. If there is consensus, then that one view is what should be reported. If there is disagreement, then that should be reported. But as this is a story that is still unfolding it is hard to say what the consensus (if any) might be. For now, the page seems accurate enough to me, crediting the "first" claim to two sources that do, in fact, make that claim. 99.192.89.172 (talk) 19:43, 3 May 2010 (UTC) (no relation to 99.190.135.217)
A good wikipedia editor uses the sources. The sources said it, not me. I simply tried to explain it here. Whether you agree or disagree with me is immaterial, 2 seperate reliable sources said it. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:44, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
There are plenty of reliable sources that describe lang as a major mainstream country music performer, and she has after all won multiple Grammy awards for country performances (the Grammy awards being the epitome of mainstream music) and has had at least one number one country song in Canada. She performs in more than one genre (so does Dolly Parton and no one would question that she's country) but she started in country. I added and cited lang's coming out in 1992. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 22:10, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
And I cited 2 reliable sources saying Wright was the first major artist. That's not MY opinion, it is the sources. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:44, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
The reliable sources say Wright's the first - if you find a source that disputes Wright's "firstness" then add it, but using a 2008 book to cite lang's coming out to make a point in the article is Synthesis. Hekerui (talk) 22:17, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Well hey, thanks so much for the assumption of good faith there, buddy. Of course I was adding the information only to make a point and not because it is true and verified. Factual errors can be included in reliable sources; that's why newspapers have Corrections sections. The article correctly states that two reliable sources have (incorrectly) identified Wright as the first openly gay major country music artist. It is not "synthesis" to include a reliable source which corrects that inaccurate information. Knowing a fact ("1992 is earlier than 2010") is not original research. There's been a major un-closeted country music artist since 1992 and that the source was published in 2008 has no bearing either on its reliability or its use to document lang's coming out. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 22:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
I now used a contemporary source that discusses Wright and lang. However, I'm concerned about weight, because there is no evidence k. d. lang is relevant for an article about Wright. Hekerui (talk) 23:11, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
Fun fact: You know what most people don't know. Although k.d. Lang is credited as the first openly gay country artist, Wilma Burgess was actually the first. She had a series of mid-60s country hits, including the famous tune "Misty Blue" (1966), however she is often uncredited because there is no references about it. Sorry to intrude, but I just thought I'd let you know =P Dottiewest1fan (talk) 02:10, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry but Chely Wright is the first country singer to come out, NOT K.D Lang. All the sources used for the article are correct. People are wanting to say that the article is incorrect when its not. K.D. Lang is not a exclusive country singer, she sings pop too. Actually she sings more pop than country doesn't she? These K.D. Lang fans just keep pushing to have the article say that K.D Lang was first when she wasn't. Actually having K.D Lang in the article is pointless because the article is about Chely Wright, NOT K.D. Lame, I mean K.D Lang. The Fans of K.D Lang need to stop pushing for her inclusion in this article.--99.177.250.140 (talk) 23:33, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

I added the word "American" in front of your entry for Chely Wright as the first to come out. According to the Wiki entry for k.d. lang "Lang ranked #33 on VH-1's 100 Greatest Women in Rock & Roll in 1999 and #26 on CMT' 40 Greatest Women in Country Music in 2002, one of only eight women to make both lists." seems pretty clear to me who was first... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bcinns (talkcontribs) 21:12, 19 May 2010 (UTC) ...and you all keep taking it out - whatever - guess Wiki is totally US oriented.142.68.45.207 (talk) 21:59, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

  • It's not about being US oriented...it's about reporting what the fucking source says, not what some wikipedia editor decides to interpret for himself. Read WP:OR. Niteshift36 (talk) 23:49, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

The source being two US newspapers - but that doesn't make it US oriented, right? Lang, who came out as a lesbian in a 1992 article of the LGBT-related news magazine The Advocate, has actively championed gay rights causes, lang was #26 on CMT' 40 Greatest Women in Country Music in 2002, therefor an accurate article would not state that Chely Wright is the first country western artist to come out. My solution was to simply put the word "American" in front of the statement making it clear that Chely is the first American Country Western artist to come out, and it need not mention Ms. Lang at all. To do otherwise simply means Wiki is quoting incorrect US sources who are being xenophobic and not recognizing that there are other countries in the world - countries like Canada where an artists lifestyle is not such a huge deal.99.192.73.58 (talk) 10:51, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Quite simply, most country fans don't seem to consider Lang to have been a country artist - she's a pop artist who has had some country releases. The same could be said for Ray Charles, but he's not a country musician either. Wright was a mainstream country artist in the 1990s. Also, it hasn't been called "country western" for 30 years or more. --Khajidha (talk) 11:40, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Wiki entries are not based on "what most fans think" - they are based on references. The reference to support the contention that kd lang is a Country artist is simple - lang was #26 on CMT' 40 Greatest Women in Country Music in 2002. If you are saying that what fans feel vs what Country Music Television reports differs, that's fine, but the fact remains that the two US newspapers quoted in the article to support the assertion that Ms Wright is the first "major country artist to come out" (quoted from the entry under discussion) is obviously inaccurate. I simply don't see the big deal about making it completely accurate by adding the one word "American" in front of the other adjectives (country artist). Failing to do that makes the article misleading and opens up all this discussion. If it's that important that Chely be seen as the first, fine - create a blog, but don't simply keep saying that because two US papers can't report a story accurately, and there is documented evidence of a contrary fact that one simply wants to ignore, that your article is correct. If the author is so intent that they wish the article to remain as is and wrong, fine, but it demeans what Wiki stands for.99.192.73.58 (talk) 11:52, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The list also includes Linda Ronstadt. It isn't necessary to be a country musician to release a country song, or even to be influential in country music. Also, your contention that the US sources are being xenophobic is an assumption as well. --Khajidha (talk) 12:00, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Try to follow the facts: 1. kd lang came out in 1992 - source Advocate 2. kd lang was #26 on CMT' 40 Greatest Women in Country Music in 2002 3. Chely Wright came out in 2010 4. Any assertion that Chely is the first country artist to come out is simply wrong A possible other correction could be that Chely is the first "solely" country artist, perhaps, but that's not what was reported. Linda Ronstadt used to be categorized as Country, so what? And the assertion that the two US newspapers is xenophobic is meant to not "assert" anything - it is factual that if they report contrary to 1 - 3 above they are simply wrong as well.99.192.73.58 (talk) 12:17, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Your possible "other" correction is simply the intended reading of the report. kd lang is not solely a country artist, therefore saying that she is a country artist without also saying she is a pop artist is incorrect. Lang's position on that chart shows only that she is a woman who has released some country music, not that she is a (solely) country music artist. I don't recall Ms. Ronstadt ever having been classified as a (solely) country artist, merely as an artist who had some success with country releases while remaining mainly a pop artist. You interpret their report as contrary to your facts, I interpret their report as disagreeing with you over what is meant by "country music artist". By your definition anyone who has ever released any country songs (or released any songs to country radio) is a country artist. By that definition Uncle Kracker, Kid Rock and Ween are all "country artists". Saying that the exclusion of kd lang comes from xenophobia is saying that the papers in question have a bias against either homosexuals, Canadians, or people who don't capitalize their names. Do you have proof of this bias, or are you simply assuming it because they made a statement that you disagree with? --Khajidha (talk) 13:29, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
  • You try following the facts......Lang has not done a country album since BEFORE she came out. The CMT list you refer to came out (no pun intended) in 2002, but wasn't based on the events of 2002. She abandoned country music BEFORE coming out. Here are the FACT, not the opinion of some anonymous editor: Fact: Multiple reliable sources have said Wright is the first "major country artist" to come out. Fact: The article says exactly that. Fact: The article is currently in line with WP:RS and WP:V. Fact: Your suggestion is WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. So enough already. Show a policy or stop the fanboy nonsense. Kid Rock has won a CMT award and been nominated for an ACM, but that doesn't make him a country artist. He is a rock/pop artist that made a country song or two.Niteshift36 (talk) 14:09, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
+ Please cite ONE non-US source which says that Chely Wright is the first major country artist to come out. What does it matter WHEN kd lang crossed over? Are you saying that Shania Twain is not a country artist? The simple fact is the article as written is wrong - Chely is the first AMERICAN country artist to come out, not the first country artist.Sheesh...99.192.56.179 (talk) 18:50, 20 May 2010 (UTC) Oh, and since you asked - kd lang's Hymns of the 49th parallel (2004) had several country hits on it, including her covers of Johnny Cash's version of Bird on a Wire and Neil Young's After the Gold Rush. We Canadians know that a lady from Alberta singing those types of songs is country.99.192.56.179 (talk) 18:55, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Is A Canadian source "non-US" anough? [1] "Chely Wright will go down as the first country music artist to announce their sexuality and looks to help bring country music to whole new fan base.". Niteshift36 (talk) 00:43, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Do not insert your response in MY response.......and the part I quoted is the author, not Wright, so your "point" is moot. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:35, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Here is one from the Seychelles [2] "Chely is the first artist in the world of country music that turns out to be gay."
    ...and that one is a Blog - I thought they didn't count???? Niteshift36 (talk) 00:48, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
  • You asked for a non-US source, not a reliable one. BTW, I'd debate whether that is a blog or not. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:35, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I wouldn't expect non-US sources to even necessarily know what (American) country music is. And Neil Young isn't country, so what does her covering a Neil Young song have to do with anything? As far as the crossing over goes, you are using the term to cover two different things. kd lang "crossed over" by CEASING TO RELEASE MUSIC TO COUNTRY RADIO, Shania Twain "crossed over" by BECOMING SUCCESSFUL IN COUNTRY AND POP MUSIC SIMULTANEOUSLY. The term "country artist" as used in the sources and as used by most people on this page (and seemingly most people period) is an artist who releases/has released primarily or even exclusively country music. BY THAT TEST, kd lang is not a "country artist" the majority of her music has been pop. Chely Wright has released ALL of her music under the classification country. --Khajidha (talk) 19:03, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

OK - I get it - the Chely fan base wants it to be this way - but just so you know - kd lang sang in May 2008 and got the following review: "Lang also showed off her vocal chops as a country singer with a stellar cover of Chris Isaak's Western Stars, which saw her backdrop spring to life as a starry night, and an "old-timey" version of Paydirt, with the singer surrounded by her band in a semi-circle, and the audience clapping along" (http://jam.canoe.ca/Music/Artists/L/Lang_KD/ConcertReviews/2008/06/01/5735311-sun.html) Lang in Canada is considered a country artist, so is Twain, and Neil Young has also released country music (several singles and a couple of whole country albums...) You all are debating whether kd lang is or isn't country, when I have cited several sources stating she is, you all are debating she stopped being country, which was true for a time (due to her hassles against beef - she is a vegetarian) but she continues NOW to be a country artist.You seem to be violating NPOV. Please also see the Wikipedia list at (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category%3ACanadian_country_singers) It isn't ME being the fan type here, I am looking for accuracy and I've given several WP:OR99.192.56.179 (talk) 19:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

  • No, you don't "get it". You keep basing this on some bias or nationalistic thing. It's not. It's based on policy, sources and in NOT being a fanboy/fangirl pushing an agenda. You clearly have some interest in pushing a Canadian into the article and you're acting like it's everyone else who has an agenda. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:27, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I added a piece of a sentence with 4 citations clearly casting doubt that Chely's statement (by the way, if you read the Boston Herald account it is Chely that is saying she is the first, not the Herald...) and it gets removed. 2 of the sources were:

http://www.tv.com/country-singer-chely-wright-comes-out-as-gay/webnews/74478.html and http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/2010/05/05/chely_wright_isnt_shocking This is not nationalistic, except that you keep saying kd Lang is not a country artist when clearly (and I have given you like a half dozen sites for that) she was and still is. Whatever - keep your little dreams alive - I have mentioned this to a whole whack of people here in Canada, and when I say Chely Wright says she is the first country artist to come out EVERY SINGLE PERSON says "what about kd Lang?" I based my statement (which was "although there is some debate that kd Lang should have that title" behind the Herald reference for those who didn't see it). I am through debating this here - there are so many websites now that state openly that Chely is NOT the first, you go right ahead and keep saying she is and attribute the newspapers (one of which is merely quoting her - the quote by the way is from Larry Katz, an editorial writer for the Herald who said "She claims to be the first openly gay country singer. She’s probably right: Heck, I can’t think of another." - but you're still wrong - and Wikipedia loses.99.192.55.32 (talk) 00:45, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

  • And I removed it. 2 of the sources were blogs, 1 points out that Lang came out AFTER she went pop and the 4th called Lang "country-ish". None of them dispute the cited claim that Wright is the first MAJOR country star to come out. And, on top of all of that, this is not Lang's bio. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:47, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

+ Right, I understand - the Headline on Broadsheet is "She may be the latest, but she's far from the first LGBT-supporting singer to come out of Nashville" but that doesn't mean anything to you, tv.com says "Wright is being heralded as the first country music star to come out as openly gay – although that claim is a bit questionable."..."authors" like you are why Wiki gets a bad name!Bcinns (talk) 00:53, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Apparently you are fuzzy about what a reliable source is. The TV.com entry is just a blog entry and TV.com doesn't have a great rep for reliability. Again, you are ignoring what this bio says: That she is the first MAJOR country artist to come out. Not the first, but the first MAJOR one. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:58, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

+ whatever- I trust she is paying you well...Bcinns (talk) 01:05, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

  • I'm sure that sort of thinking will serve you well in life. I note you failed to acknowledge my producing 2 non-US (including one Canadian source) sources that say she was the first. And I don't get my feelings hurt when a SPA tells me I'm "being paid". Niteshift36 (talk) 01:15, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

+ kd lang was not major: Country Awards: 1990 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Country Female Vocalist of the Year Juno Awards 1989 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Country Female Vocalist of the Year Juno Awards 1989 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Female Vocalist of the Year Juno Awards 1987 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Country Female Vocalist of the Year Juno Awards 1985 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Most Promising Female Vocalist of the Year Juno Awards Nominations: 2009 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics ARTIST OF THE YEAR Juno Awards 2009 SONG : I Dream Of Spring Lyrics JACK RICHARDSON PRODUCER OF THE YEAR Juno Awards 2004 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Artist of the Year Juno Awards 1994 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Recording Engineer of the Year Juno Awards 1994 SONG : Miss Chatelaine Lyrics Female Vocalist Grammy Awards 1994 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Producer of the Year Juno Awards 1993 SONG : Constant Craving Lyrics Best Art Direction MTV Video Music Awards 1993 SONG : Constant Craving Lyrics Record of the Year Grammy Awards 1993 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Recording Engineer of the Year Juno Awards 1993 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Best Engineered Album Grammy Awards 1993 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Female Vocalist of the Year Juno Awards 1993 SONG : Constant Craving Lyrics Best Cinematography MTV Video Music Awards 1993 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Album of the Year Grammy Awards 1990 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Canadian Entertainer of the Year Juno Awards 1989 ARTIST : K. D. Lang Lyrics Female Vocalist of the Year Academy of Country Music Awards —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bcinns (talkcontribs) 01:10, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Half of those NOMINATIONS (which are different than wins) aren't even for Lang. They are for cinematography, engineering etc. Further, who gives a shit what she got nominated for AFTER SHE LEFT COUNTRY MUSIC? That has absolutely zero bearing on the conversation. Get a clue. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:15, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

+ blah, blah, blah Bcinns (talk) 01:54, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

  • You want Lang to take credit for sound engineering and cinematography? Wow, what a superwoman. She just does it all. You tipped your hand as a POV warrior with your first post in this discussion "thank god for kd Lang". Your credibility was on the downhill slide since then. If you come up with a policy based argument, let me know. Otherwise, I'm tired of your willful blindness. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:00, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

+I never said "thank god for kd lang" - typical of your "authoring" to misattribute.Bcinns (talk) 02:05, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

  • You are correct, it was a similar IP number. My apology. You're not a sockpuppet, just a SPA. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:14, 21 May 2010 (UTC)


I would like to second the idea that Chely is not the first Major country & western musician to come out. The first thing I thought when I read that line was "if you don't count K.D. Lang". My opinion doesn't matter much here, but it seems you are insisting Chely has this honor when it is at best questionable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.11.201.48 (talk) 00:47, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • The sources say otherwise. And, as has been pointed out a dozen times, Lang didn't come out when she was a country artist, she came out after she'd gone over to pop. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:58, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


Please quote a source for the above statement!99.192.60.92 (talk) 20:45, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Actually - the sources do not say that - what the sources all say is that Wright claims to be the first - the Boston Herald actually questions this (read the quotes from above) - there is also some question as to Wright being a "major artist", your cites for the reference #'s 7 and 9 do not use the term "major"; and the New York Times calls Wright a "minor country artist" in their report of the coming out, and they do not quote her claim to be first . Also, what does it matter what happened after Lang came out? Lang, contrary to your opinion, actually was country when she came out in 1992, having won the Grammy for best country artist in 1990 - she became pop in 1993 maybe because she had come out who knows but what happens next is not knowable in Wright's case, so it doesn't matter what happened to anyone else afterwards.

  • You can spin and re-write history all you want, the references used do make the statement that she is the first major country artist to come out. As for your timeline, you're full of it. Langs last purely country album was in 1989. By the time she released Ingenue in 1992 (which was recorded in 1991, before she came out), she'd already started to transition to pop. Her 1993 soundtrack for "Even Cowgirls Get the Blues" is not a country album. Bottom line: This is Wright's bio, the sources are accurately quoted and a debate about who was first does not belong in the bio. You're a SPA with an obvious agenda, so don't even lecture me or anyone else about people trying to push an opinion. You have no grounds to stand on. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:27, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

+and I took it out, as I posted it then thought better of it...I menat the "other dude" as the one who commented that they'd second the idea about Lang and I misspoke (which again is why I took it down - only you saw it apparently - kind of shows the lengths you're going to doesn't it)? Re-posting an entry that was deleted by the author (isn't THAT vandalism and disrutive?) even when someone makes a mistake, thanks for that...!Bcinns (talk) 20:32, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • No, reposting the comment is not disruptive, especially when it illustrates your attempt at sockpuppetry. And what "lengths that I'll go to"? It's in the freakin edit history. Anyone can see it. Niteshift36 (talk) 20:57, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I restored the above repsonse as it illustrates the attempt at subterfuge. The IP above, which happens to be located in Halifax, made the comment about "the other dude". Bcinn comes in and deleted it. Guess where Bcinn is located? Halifax. Coincidence, Doubtful. If Bcinn is the IP, he's trying to fool people. If he's not, then removing other editors posts that aren't vandalism is disruptive. As for your "fanboy" accusation, I own exactly ONE of Wrights songs. I don't even remember editing this article before I added the info about her coming out. Yeah, that's real "fanboy" behavior.Niteshift36 (talk) 17:27, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


+Ironically, it was purely coincidence for the other post (the one before the "ha,ha" one) - I put that post in then thought better of it, because it was rude (and I took it down, but since you put it back I'll just apologize instead, not because I made the comment above (and for the record Halifax is a city of 350,000 people, could there be mnore thabn one poster - hmmmmm...) - but because it's back up there. I've tried all ways to have you see that the entry as it stands is inaccurate, as kd lang was a country artist (I have several dozen sources that say so and showed you a couple) and I suggested putting something in like "American", which would make the entry true, "solely", which would make the entry true, or what about "current"which would also make it true? Your issue is that you haven't got a single source that refers to Lang as a pop artist before she came out in 1992 - if you do, let's see it! You know what - even if you do, does that matter - she definitely WAS a country artist, and she came out, who said anything about it being important that she STILL was country when she came out? (but if that's important give us a source)? You also have accused me twice of being a sockpuppet, and had the decency to apologize once (and are wrong again) , but otherwise you have been most unpleasant to people who admittedly are not used to the way Wiki works. There is a supposition of good faith, right? Enough nonsense, give a source or change the entry. Bcinns (talk) 20:25, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • No, I'm not wrong. Of the few IP's in this conversation, at least 3 are from the same internet provider in Halifax. One was shown to be yours when you logged back in and changed your signature. AGF isn't a suicide pact. If you think I am going to believe that it is sheer coincidence that 2 other IP's from your city and your provider just happened to jump into this conversation to side with you just because of AGF....well, let's say I'm not that gullible. I'll call a duck a duck. Add to that the fact that the only edits they've made all year are in this conversation. Believing your "it's just happenstance" excuse just isn't plausible. I haven't even looked for a source that called Lang a pop artist in 1992. I'm not going to. The sources used in the story are reliable sources, they made the statement and and their statements are presented accurately. While I was wrong before, you're now exhibiting sockpuppet tendencies. Your excuse isn't believable and your denial (instead of just admitting it) of your attempted puppetry makes me inclined to open a SPI. I've got no problem admitting if I'm wrong, but I'm not buying your excuse. I'll ecide if I want to go through the tedious SPI complaint or not. But if I do, it will most likely result in a block from editing.Niteshift36 (talk) 20:54, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


You go right ahead and do whatever you feel is correct. I have saved my screen captures where you admit to restoring a post that an author deleted.Bcinns (talk) 21:28, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Where I "admit" it? Hey genius, it's in the edit history. I couldn't possibly deny it. Duh. You're saving screen captures of shit that is in wikipedia's servers and everyone can view. Every single edit you make it recorded and viewable. So when you go back and change stuff, everyone, including me, can go see what you said in the first place. Seriously man, get a clue.Niteshift36 (talk) 02:04, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Niteshift36, just in case you do decide to open an SPI, you should know that at least one coincidence has happened in this thread. My only previous post in this thread is the one signed "99.192.89.172 (talk) 19:43, 3 May 2010 (UTC) (no relation to 99.190.135.217)". I signed it that way to avoid confusion of a similar IP number. But it also happens that I live in Halifax, so my IP number can look like the ones that belong to the guy(s?) you have been primarily arguing with. Also, if you check the other posts made by the IP number that shows up for this post (142.68.42.47) you will find just one edit to the article on Boston, but it's not an edit I made. Just one made by someone who previously happened to get assigned this IP number.
As for the issue at hand, I previously wrote: "For now, the page seems accurate enough to me, crediting the 'first' claim to two sources that do, in fact, make that claim." That still seems right to me, as I have not seen a source that clearly contradicts the claim (and yes, I did see both the Salon and the New York Times pieces). So count me as a Haligonian who does not see good enough evidence yet to think the "Chely was first" claim needs to be qualified.
For what it's worth, I don't know if my fellow Haligonian editor(s?) are old enough to remember this first hand (as I am), but in 1992 when k. d. was promoting Ingénue she was very frequently refered to in the press as a country singer and she always responded quite insistantly that she was no longer a country singer. It had nothing to do with her beef with beef. It was just an accurate reflection of a change in musical direction she had made. In fact, she sometimes got a little annoyed with journalists who continued to describe her as a country artist.
I'd advise the other Haligonian(s?) and any others who think it is incorrect the list Chely as "first" to listen to Q on CBC radio this coming Friday. Chely is scheduled to be one of the guests with (I believe) guest host and Brent Bambury. I would be shocked if, in what is likely to be a 30 minute interview, Bambury does not ask her about the "Chely was first" vs "k. d. was first" issue. It might be interesting to hear their takes on it. For those not in Canada and without access to CBC radio, the shows are all archived after broadcast on the CBC webpage here: [3]. 142.68.42.47 (talk) 03:05, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Save it for the SPI. That won't be decided by what I think, but by what the admins think. I doubt they'll find 3 IP's from the same provider posting essentially no place but this topic a likely coincidence, especially in light of Bcinn's deletion of that post, (a denial and excuse all at the same time) to be a likely coincidence either. Unless of course Bcinn wants to just confess and quit acting like people are stupid. As for Lang being "promoted as country"....well of course she was, she hadn't released any pop albums up to that point. Of course, she hadn't released much of anything in the time preceeeding her coming out. Argue it how you want, multiple reliable sources have called her the first MAJOR country artist to come out, that is what the article says and the bio isn't the place for the debate. Maybe all you "Haligonian" fans of Lang should write an article about homosexuals in country music, then you have that debate in that article. Niteshift36 (talk) 04:19, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

+I see that the latest edit of mine was also removed, I am tired of the conflict, so I won't change it back again, but as there is at least one other interested party - what I wrote was: This claim has been contested. (and the source used was - http://www.moxieq.com/article.php?aID=4778&PHPSESSID=638661752# seems to me we have a source that clearly contradicts what is stated in the article.) I shall be listening to CBC this morning as well, thanks for the tip. Perhaps if others wish to express an opinion on this source...(MoxieQ being a highly respected Gay Rights journal...)Bcinns (talk) 10:34, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Bcinns, there are two reasons I don't think the MoxieQ article is sufficient to justify a change in the article. Firstly, I did a quick google search and am not convinced that MoxieQ meets the requirements for being a credible source. MoxieQ is not used as a source for google news. It's been around for a year and the only references to MoxieQ I could find were press releases of its original creation - nothing since. Also, in the year it has existed it no one has even thought to create a Wikipedia page for it. Furthermore, the main sections listed on their home page are, in order listed, "Gay Weather", "Horoscopes", "Daily Dirt", and "Movie Reviews". That does not scream journalistic reliability.
Secondly, even if MoxieQ were regarded as a credible source, the article you cite does not clearly contradict the claim that Chely was first. It acknowledges that others one might call "first" either don't count as a "major star" (Patrick Haggerty) or had left country music already (k. d. lang). The article refers to counting Chely as first as a "technicality", but that really is to admit that there is a "firstness" to what Chely has done. The spirit of the claim that Chely is first is that she first was successful in country music, then came out as gay, and then continued a career in country music. People like Patrick Haggerty don't meet the first criterion and k.d. does not meet the third, even by MoxieQ's own admission.
The reason the third criterion is significant is easy to see if you think of the examples of coming out in sports. John Amaechi made big news when he became the first former NBA player to be openly gay. But when he came out he was already retired. So if (when) in the future someone who is still an active player in the NBA comes out as gay it will be a very big deal because no one has ever tried to simultaneously be out as gay and play in the NBA. k. d. is more like John Amaechi and Chely like that possible future out gay NBA player. What k. d. (and Amaechi) did was significant, but the significance of what Chely has done is not eclipsed by it. That is why the media reports have not called into question the "first" claim. There really is a "first" here. 99.192.56.9 (talk) 15:54, 23 May 2010 (UTC) (aka 99.192.89.172 and 142.68.42.47)

+ Thanks for that very civil and understandable explanation - while I might quibble with your description of MoxieQ (it is a very reliable source, in a fun spirit, within the gay community), I see what you mean with your excellent parallel in the sports analogy. This may be what others had in mind when stating that Wright can be, in your words, simultaneously out and a country singer. That I can appreciate, and it makes the historical explanation easier to understand. That is, that kd Lang was a country star who then came out (which is where I was going when I suggested "current" as an adjective for a modifier for Wright's actions that I felt would make the article more accurate), and I must admit I didn't understand why that really would be an issue - your use of simultaneously makes that clear. Thanks for the cogent explanation!Bcinns (talk) 17:36, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Agreed, that was very well put. Niteshift36 (talk) 17:57, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:Talk_page#Indentation[edit]

If you read Wikipedia:Talk_page#Indentation you will see that comments on discussion pages are supposed to be posted in the order they are made, so the newest one always goes at the bottom. The third example they give, where George is replying to John even after Elliot and Jane have responded shows how indenting is the indicator of who a response is to, not the order. The comments made by Niteshift36 at 23:44, 3 May 2010 (UTC) and 23:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC) were not put at the end and with the proper number of indents as the instruction page shows. I fixed both the indents (or lack thereof) and the order. My changes are correct. 142.177.23.251 (talk) 00:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Then you change the indentation, not the location! At this point, you are altering the conversation and context. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:33, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
First, the fact that you still use the asterisk and not colons for indents shows you have not looked at the page that tells you how to format comments. I fixed your asterisk to a colon here, but please use colons in the future. Second, if you would bother to read the page I have linked to you will find that it is wrong to insert comments in between two already posted comments, so what you call "ill-conceived reorganization" is actually just puting things as Wikipedia requires. 142.177.23.251 (talk) 00:39, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
What you fail to understand it the policy you are citing is NOT a policy. It is a suggestion. Nobody is required to follow it. However, your alterations change the discussion. That is vandalism. I've read it, I just place more importance on the content of what is said than I do counting colons. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:43, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Every time someone makes an edit on a talk page there is a box at the top of the page that says "Please respect the talk page guidelines". Those guidelines say that inserting comments between already posted ones is wrong. You can call it a "suggestion", but it sounds like policy to me. 142.177.23.251 (talk) 00:49, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't care if it "sounds" like a policy to you. It's not. Policy pages have a banner at the top telling you they are a policy. Style guidelines have banners identifying them as such. etc. You don't see that at the top because it's not a policy. It is a preferred style, not a requirement. Further, you say "Those guidelines say that inserting comments between already posted ones is wrong", but the page you are citing shows an example of how editors can do exactly that. Your own "source" proves your claim incorrect. Niteshift36 (talk) 00:53, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia:Talk page guidelines, "Editing – or even removing – others' comments is sometimes allowed. Some examples of appropriately editing others' comments: ... Fixing layout errors: This could include moving a new comment from the top of a page to the bottom...." So what I did was acceptable editing according to the guidelines. Not vandalism. Not disruption. Something Wikipedia guidelines call "appropriate". 142.177.23.251 (talk) 00:56, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Editing, as in fixing indentation. Not the context. It is disruption. It alters the meaning of the discussion. Removing is for violations of BLP etc. Do not move a response to a different location so as to make it change context of discussion flow. You've made your so-called "fixes", so this further belaboring of this is pointless. Niteshift36 (talk) 01:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
"It alters the meaning of the discussion." What alters the meaning of the discussion is when a comment is inserted above an already posted comment but at the same level of reply, making it look like the older one came after the newer one. This reply, however, by virtue of its indenting, is a different conversation thread from the less indented comment below it, so no such ambiguity arises. Sticking to the guidelines - both on order and indenting - leads to clarity. 142.177.23.251 (talk) 01:29, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
"Your own "source" proves your claim incorrect." Not true. You don't seem to have read it correctly. What it tells you is how you can insert comments between comments when the coment inserted is at a further level of indentation to the one it is above. But what you did was insert comments at the same level of indentation. Those are supposed to go below, not between the comments in question. 142.177.23.251 (talk) 01:24, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

I removed the following from the article[edit]

I have removed the following from the article "Canadian singer-songwriter k.d.Lang was active in country music in the 1980s and came out as a lesbian in the early 1990s, but had not gained mainstream acceptance in the genre and had moved to pop music."

This does not belong in a article about Chely Wright because,well this article is about Chely Wright not K.D. Lang. Also I know that when I was reading the article about Chely Wright's personal life it seemed kind of odd and out of place to see a blurb about K.D. Lang. The Fact is that Chely Wright was the first country artist to come out and the 2 of many sources (Boston Herald and New York Daily News) back this up. From what I have read online, K.D Lang did not come out while she was a country singer, she came out when she was a pop singer. I realize that it seems like I am splitting hairs here but technically it is correct that she came out while she was a pop singer.--BeckiGreen (talk) 03:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

  • You are correct. We had that debate above. Both sources list Wright as the first major country artist to come out. Lang did some country albums, but didn't have the commercial success Wright did. And Lang had abandoned country and was making pop albums when she came out. Niteshift36 (talk) 03:24, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
  • True, true. Hekerui (talk) 04:21, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Ummm... "Lang did some country albums, but didn't have the commercial success Wright did." Obviously you did not check their respective discography pages. Lang's final two country albums both went gold in the US. Wright has only ever had one gold album. One of those two Lang albums was in the Billboard Country top ten, the other made it to #12. Wright has only ever had one top ten album and her second best one did not make it to #12 (it was #15). Lang clearly had marginally more commercial success than Wright in country music. But she had left the genre before she came out, so if Lang was not the first major country artist to come out it was not because her level of success was not high enough to count as a "major" artist, but because she was no longer a country singer. 142.177.24.137 (talk) 14:56, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Um, yeah, I know what I said and it is correct. True, Lang had 2 country alubums go gold in the US. But the highest charting country single she had was #22. Wright had a #1. Lang had 4 country singles chart in the US. Wright has had 17 so far. Lang got up to #9 once in country albums, Wright went to #4. It's all moot because 1) The reliable sources made the statement and 2) Lang had already abandoned country and gone to pop music when she came out. Wright hasn't. Niteshift36 (talk) 18:35, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

Someone added the K.D. Lang paragraph back in the article and I removed it again. I am not trying to start a edit war but I will keep removing it because it had nothing to do with Chely Wright's personal life. It sticks out like a sore thumb in the article.--BeckiGreen (talk) 21:13, 12 May 2010 (UTC)

No it actually doesn't stick out like any sort of thumb, sore or otherwise. It addresses a question that many people ask when confronted with this supposed fact about Wright, namely, "what about k.d. lang?" It would be one sentence but god forbid we strive for clarity and context. BTW, "I don't want to edit war but I will keep removing it" is not only a completely inappropriate of assertion of ownership of the article, it's completely contrary to the principle of collaborative editing, not to mention an open declaration of edit war.
"This makes Wright the first major country music artist to come out as gay (former country artist k.d. lang came out in 1993 but had abandoned the country music genre by then)." Yeah, that really detracts from the article. Really makes it just impossible to follow. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 09:58, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I understand that you are trying to compromise, but surely you also see that it's not just one (or two) editors that have said it doesn't belong. The majority of verifiable, established editors (not random SPA's from the same provider) that have discussed in have said it doesn't belong. That starts looking like consensus to me. So the "ownership" lecture might be a bit presumptious. Niteshift36 (talk) 13:38, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • Part of why it may look like it doesn't belong is because the "Personal life" section is so completely under-developed. That often happens with BLP articles because for some reason editors tend to split the personal and professional and go into minute career details while ignoring the personal details. There should definitely be more than five short sentences about her "personal life" and a glance at the available sources shows a lot of material available. At the very least her reasons for staying closeted (both personally and professionally) should be detailed as well as the reasons why she decided to come out when she did. Structurally this article is a mess and I'm frankly surprised anyone would rate it C-class. Regardless, the point still stands that as part of a properly developed section mention should be made of lang because of her history in the country genre and being out so much earlier than Wright. That no one has yet developed the section properly doesn't mean that information that ought to be included should be omitted.
  • As far as being "presumptious" [sic] goes, I find it rather more presumptuous to announce that particular pieces of information will be removed no matter what. Are You The Cow Of Pain? (talk) 14:22, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
  • I don't feel it belongs, but I'm not going to fight over the way that you've included it. I do not think the wikilink needs to be there for lesbian. WP:OVERLINK tells us that links aren't needed to common words that are understood by most users. Most English speakers know what a lesbian is without having to go read the article to figure it out and that's why I removed it. FWIW, I also think that making an issue of a typo (the u and the i are next to each other) is kind of childish. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:38, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Awards[edit]

The chart with the awards is starting to get a little overboard. In broad general terms, if the award isn't notable enough for an article, why is it on here? Niteshift36 (talk) 12:00, 3 June 2011 (UTC)