Talk:Cherokee

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Cherokee Nation of Mexico[edit]

I recall a wiki article on them (was since deleted) on the Cherokee Nation of Mexico, but was it verified before on their existence? Here's a web site of them http://cherokeediscovery.com/ Someone examine them closely and any connections they have with the CNO in the USA. Unless the "discovery" was a downright fraud of some kind, I have no information really on a declaration of the CNM are "fake" Indians. 71.102.1.101 (talk) 23:30, 23 July 2011 (UTC)

The deleted article had no sources. This is interesting: [1] so it appears that they have recognition in Mexico but definitely not in the US. Dougweller (talk) 05:58, 24 July 2011 (UTC)
They have "recognition" by proclmation of the governor of the Mexican state, not legislative recognition by its legislaturem that is all. Chuck Hamilton (talk) 10:47, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

If anyone wants to take on this project, a good approach might be like the Texas Cherokees article, where the focus is the historical settlement of in Cherokees in Mexico. Several northern Mexican states did provide land grants to Cherokees in the early 19th century and Emmet Starr mentions their land claims. Sequoyah did actually die on the quest to encourage the Mexican Cherokees to reunite with the main group in Indian Territory. (The history I've read doesn't jibe with what's written on the CNM website at all). From their website, no one from the Cherokee Nation of Mexico actually seems to be from Mexico, so they could just be briefly mentioned at the end of the article. -Uyvsdi (talk) 17:37, 24 July 2011 (UTC)Uyvsdi

Once a red link of "Cherokee Mexican American" was on Wikipedia, which was removed because no article was ever written. I'm not surprised there are Mexican-Americans claiming Cherokee descent, such as Selena is a Texan of some Cherokee roots. The subject can be examined before anyone can propose an article on the given subject. 71.102.1.95 (talk) 21:32, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Cherokee indians[edit]

All cherokee did not shave their head that was particular a symbol worn by warriors. The Cherokee had long hair down to the ground .The longhair clan took pride in their hair.The cherokee were also dark brown , tan, and olive complexion , the statement on the cherokee page is bias and was recorded among a group of cherokee not all.According to the spanish meeting the cherokee in 1540 they claim we were from negro black to fair complexion all different shades. They also mentioned we looked more middle eastern or east indian.John haywood an amerixan painter in 1800s depicted us with brown , tan ,& olive complexions. To bring it to a hault i would like to say the added description listed on the cherokee wiki would be misleading to our people learning their history or someone from china doing research......cherokee pride our history culture family is all we have left..we need our history to be accurate — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historicfuture12 (talkcontribs) 18:49, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

@Historicfuture12: Accuracy on Wikipedia is measured, in large part, by the verifiability of the information. What reliable sources do you have both for your information and to contest the sources currently cited in the article? —C.Fred (talk) 19:24, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

my relieable source are from the cherokee nation page timeline which states year 1540 http://centralca.cherokee.org/Cherokee-Timeline — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historicfuture12 (talkcontribs) 16:21, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

http://centralca.cherokee.org/Cherokee-Timeline

the first Europeans who encountered the Cherokee were Spaniards their description is skin color ranges from negro black to fair ...this is located on the offical cherokee nations page circa 1540 a.d

here is also another reference this is factual history this description can be found every where. http://wsharing.com/WScherokeeTimeline.htm[1 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historicfuture12 (talkcontribs) 16:28, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

The wsharing.com site does not appear to be a reliable source. At best, it is just copying information from the Cherokee Community of Central California's website. At worst, it's a personal website without editorial review or fact-checking. —C.Fred (talk) 16:32, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
We need to see academic discussion of the original Spanish sources. Dougweller (talk) 18:34, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

The statement on the cherokee page is false, as a cherokee member i know my history and the statement clearly states the aniyunwiya/cherokee were just olive, we were tan , dark brown , olive, and lighter. It also falsely claims that all cherokee shaved their heads accept one lock of hair ,Thats false ; the cherokee seen hair as scared especially among the long hair clan which wore their hair down their backs with my different hair styles. Shaving the head and leaving a patch was found among warriors who were freely to do whatever the wanted with their hair this shaving your head thing was not mandortory it was a choice of style. They were also 30 to 50 different cherokee villages and henry timberlake only visited one. heres actual history about the clans on the NCcherokee clans. [1] Historicfuture12 (talk) 20:50, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but "I know my history" is, at best, original research. Sources used in articles must be from published reliable sources. As for what's in the article, yes, it's just one source; if there's academic discussion of the Spanish sources as there is of Timberlake's writing, then we can include their observations as well. Also, bear in mind that Wikipedia prefers secondary sources of primary, and the EBCI's tourism website (visitcherokeenc.com) is definitely a primary source. —C.Fred (talk) 21:21, 1 October 2014 (UTC)
Additionally, according to Tiberlake's article, his "...Memoirs remains one of the best contemporary accounts of the 18th-century Cherokee." You need to distinguish if you're alleging that his observations were false or if they were limited. If you're saying they are false, provide sources that discredit Timberlake. If you're saying they're limited then we need other academic sources to provide alternate descriptions. --NeilN talk to me 00:02, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

You must have not read the Cherokee NC page which is a primary source which states the Cherokee clans, and proves that Cherokee did not all shave their heads as you see the long hair clan took pride in the hair ...Yes Henry Timberlake's observation is false as he claims (the Cherokee) meaning all shave their heads leaving a patch left. He did not say some Cherokee he said all as well as he said they are olive and middle statue, if you see from Pardo and Moyano Spanish expedition they claim the Cherokee range in many different hues you can also see from famous English-American painter George Catlin which depicts the Cherokee many different shades. I'm floored that you mentioned a primary source isn't valid, that's not a good scholarship or analyses. In any research a " primary source " is the best evidence and you are discrediting facts from the owners of our own history, as im now concerned Wikipedia is not a reliable source which i thought it was. I will definitely make sure I let many people know of the falsehood of many wiki editors as this situation is unacceptable as you can bare witness to the flaws of the statement also with (primary evidence which is a scholars best find) you would know this is you went to a university and you still are debating what is a reference or not. Historicfuture12 (talk) 20:21, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

The problem with the Cherokee NC page is precisely that it is a primary source. There is a risk that a subject will describe itself in a flattering light; that's why primary sources are allowed in limited circumstances. —C.Fred (talk) 21:06, 4 October 2014 (UTC)

Too long a quote in the Lead[edit]

Aside from the template for block quotes discussion the quote in the Lead is too long, as the Lead is supposed to cover a larger scope of content. That belongs in the body of the article together with other appropriate chronological material.Parkwells (talk) 17:09, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Agreed. Stylistically and visually, it's too long a quote for the lede. And as a single account, it's undue weight to give it that much prominence. I think we should move it down to the sections about early contact. - CorbieV 17:59, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

Origins[edit]

Ignoring the obvious copyright violation, [2] the source flatly says the theory was rejected. Per WP:FRINGE, it has little place in the article. --NeilN talk to me 20:17, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

it says the theory was rejected because of the Iroquoian theory. as you see i said theory and if it is not such a theory then why is there more then one listed. the same people who believes in the iroquoin theory rejects the theory that we have always been in the the southeast and the same goes for the theory from john haywood that was rejected. the major thing here is to show the varies theories of origin. They are more then 1 ..and as i say again just because it says rejected does not mean all cherokee and others rejects it ,many rejected the iroquoan theory but its still valid in history.Historicfuture12 (talk) 20:43, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

@Historicfuture12: You had, "In some cases it is stated that John Haywoods' conclusion is rejected...". Do you have sources that indicate any modern scholar accepts Haywoods' theory? --NeilN talk to me 20:55, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I am a Cherokee scholar and studied my culture & history since birth being raised in a Cherokee home i always had a sense of self I begin my journey on my major studies for over 15 years now and i have seen many anthropologist and scholars come up with many theories that inst listed such as migrating from mexico, coming from Atlantis, south America, etc. they are many scholars and anthropologist who also say south and north Asians along with north Africans moors came to ancient America. many Cherokees subscribe to John Haywood's theory also with their own studies what ever they believe to be accurate, I have heard many outlandish ones my self, the thing is John Haywoods theory and study is documented history and holds its place in theory as i say again ( any where in history or modern times if you believe in one theory you reject all others. Yes I said his info was rejected as the others listed on the Cherokee page have been rejected by the next scholar who does his advanced studies. all Cherokee theories have been rejected Historicfuture12 (talk) 21:09, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

@Historicfuture12: We've been through this before. Your personal knowledge and experiences are not relevant for article content. Articles rely on information previously published in scholarly sources. --NeilN talk to me 21:17, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

I understand you need a source instead of my own scholarship, but i can show you a post of anthropologist and scholars saying the cherokee migrated from from mexico, so i guess i will post that then...But what im trying to get to you is that all theories of our origin are rejected in order to believe another. You and others are quick to cling on the fact it says it is it was rejected ,even the ones on the page is rejected as well so rejection does not mean its a theory. Juts as Einstein had theories not complete 100 percent fact.Historicfuture12 (talk) 21:27, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

The theories that should be presented in the article are those that are the most widely-held by scholars. So, not only would we need to cite the actual theory, but we'd also need to site some journals or similar scholarly sources to show that the theories are (still) widely accepted in the scholarly community. —C.Fred (talk) 21:30, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

show me all these scholars who believe the theories present on the page. (especially that we lived in the great lakes region) man ycherokee dont believe that. show me all these scholars expects for james mooney hes the only one. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Historicfuture12 (talkcontribs) 22:13, 21 October 2014 (UTC)

Historicfuture12, look at the other sources in the articles, the way they are put together, and read the links on basic editing we've provided. Read them instead of deleting them. Bare URLs are not proper citations. The fringe opinions you're trying to include are the stuff of fringe websites by those with no connection to the People; they are not the stories preserved by the Elders on the Boundary, CNO or UKB. If you actually have contact with any Elders, you need to go and listen to them. We have Elders looking at this page and commenting privately. - CorbieV 17:02, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
That's interesting. I see we've been given a week's break from Historicfuture12. Dougweller (talk) 18:20, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Two weeks for this.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 00:06, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 October 2014[edit]

  • references to Cherokees should be changed to Cherokee as it is both singular and plural.*

66.74.176.59 (talk) 14:34, 26 October 2014 (UTC)

Red information icon with gradient background.svg Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Do you have a source that says that 'Cherokees' should not be used? Looking at the official website of the Cherokee nation, they are okay with using it. Cannolis (talk) 15:23, 26 October 2014 (UTC)