Talk:Chicado V

Comments from non-horsey perspective

As requested I had a read through the article from the POV of someone not that familiar with horses. Generally very interesting and clear, but a few things that jarred were:

Lead.

• "Quarter horse" is unfamiliar to me - but seems to be a familiar usage in the US.

• Clarified in the main section that Quarter Horse is a breed.

• "racemare"

I know what this means. However it is not a term used much popularly in the UK, where "racehorse" is popular usage for both genders. (sometimes "filly") The word brought me up short. I'm not sure whether it needs to be changed.

An amended first sentence might be: Chicado V was a Champion Quarter horse involved in short course racing, and one of the outstanding broodmares of her breed.

Changed to "Chicado V was a Champion Quarter Horse race horse, one of the outstanding broodmares of her breed."

Great.

• "She only started six times,"

Racing jargon. My immediate thought was "started what?" Does this mean: "She only took part in six official races"? The word is used a lot in the rest of the article, so a brief explanation here would be helpful.

Changed to "She started, or raced in races, only six times..." but open to better wording suggestions.

"She started, or raced in races," is still ugly phrasing. How about "She started, or took part in races," or "She started, or raced officially,"?

Took the first one. She may have raced more often unofficially, it's hard to be sure.

• "Two of her offspring were named Champion Quarter Running Horses, with seven stakes race wins."

This is Greek to me. Named by whom? Quarter Horse is a breed, right? A Quarter Running Horse is what - a subdivision of the breed, or a Quarter Horse that has run or raced well? And is a "Champion" QRH one that has won championship races, or one that has been judged a fine horse, like a champion pig? I would gather from the context that the horses got the title for winning certain races, but this is not at all clear.

Clarified that it's a title and changed to "...was given the title of co-Champion Quarter Running Two-Year-Old Filly by the American Quarter Horse Association (or AQHA) in 1952." Does this make it clearer?

"given the title of co-Champion Quarter Running Two-Year-Old Filly", is still a mouthful. It would be easier to take-in with commas, e.g.: "given the title of co-Champion, Quarter Running, Two-Year-Old Filly" or have I placed the commas wrong?

The title is "Co-Champion Quarter Running Two-Year-Old Filly" unfortunately. The AQHA could use someone to make their titles a bit less .. cumbersome.

Early Life

• "A longtime trainer, Earl Holmes, who started his racing career as a groom for Vessels, had the care of Chicado V after she was born, and said of her that (she?) "was gentle, real gentle - in everything. She was born broke."

I know this is a direct quote, but "broke" is also slang for having no money. In the UK at least, "broke" is not used as shorthand for "broken", so again I initially struggled to work out what the sentence meant. Could you not put an explanatory bracketed n at the end i.e. "was born broke(n)"?

Added.

• "a conformation fault, or body defect"

This might be easier to assimilate if reversed, "a body defect, or conformation fault"

Much better suggestion than my wording, thanks!

• " in that she had calf-knees"

How about "in that she had slightly mis-shapen 'calf-knees'" ?

Well, I can see that, but they really aren't mis-shapen, they are set on the bones wrong. The knees themselves are the right shape, they just join with the surrounding bones wrong. I don't want to imply wrongly that calf-knees are mishapen, when they aren't. Any suggestions bearing that in mind? Ealdgyth - Talk 15:00, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

The new wording explains it better

Racing Career

• "Chicado V was sent out for race training as a two-year-old, first to Vessels' trainer"

I had to look back to the previous section to remind myself who Vessels was.

Added in "... first to her owner Vessels' trainer..." which hopefully resolves that problem.

Yes

• "She earned a Race Register of Merit in 1952 as well as an AAAT speed rating. "

No idea what these are. More explanation is really needed if these are significant achievements.

Clarified to "She earned a Race Register of Merit in 1952 from the AQHA, the easiest racing award given by the AQHA, as well as an AAAT speed rating, the fastest measure of how fast she was able to run." which hopefully will help.

"the fastest measure of how fast" repeats words. How about "the top measure," or "the best measure"

Let's try "...as well as the highest possible speed rating of AAAT, a measure of how fast she was able to run." which will hopefully help out Malleus' objections also.

• "She was a stakes race winner "

From the link, these seem to be a certain category of graded prizemoney races. I think a tiny bit more explanation is needed in the article, even if only to say "a prestigious stakes race winner".

clarified to "She was a stakes race winner, or winner of a race run by the higher quality horses..."

Broodmare career

• "As a broodmare, Chicado V gave birth to nine foals, or babies, "

Too much explanation? Most people know what foals are and "gave birth to" is also a clue.

I remain impressed by people's ability to not figure out things by context. If you really object, I'll remove it, but...

• "Four of her foals were by Three Bars (TB), "

"..sired" by Three Bars"? at least in the first instance.

Fixed.

• "an AAA speed rating"

From later use this seems to mean the horse travelled at a certain level of speed. I originally thought the AAA was another organisation. Perhaps you could specify what AAA infers (fastest/slowest speed rating - any particular MPH or consistency?)

Clarified in the text, both with AAAT and AAA.

this is better

• "The Ole Man remains number 55 on the All Time Leading Broodmare Sires By Winners"

Perhaps this could be explained slightly more.

Clarified at the first mention as "... AQHA's All Time Leading Broodmares Sire List By Winners, a listing of maternal grandsires of race horses arranged by the number of wins their grandget have won as of the end of 2007."

• The article does not say whether any current famous horses are descendants.

That's because most race horses are, but I don't have a published source for that information. She had three sons who were prolific sires, Triple Chick, Three Chicks and The Ole Man. I think (I'd have to check) but each of those sired at least 500 offspring, many of whom went on to successful racing and breeding careers. There are few Quarter Horse race horses that don't decend from Chicado V, honestly. But, unfortunately, that's just me the expert speaking, not something that's published, so it's OR.

Okay.

General

• Why is the horse famous? This isn't made clear at the start of the article. Apparently she only won three races. Were they highly significant races? Were the speed records the outstanding thing? Or was it because of her offspring? I'd like that to be clear at the top of the article. Xandar 02:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

"However it was Chicado V's three sons, Triple Chick, Three Chicks, and The Ole Man, who were her best known offspring; all three became leading sires and are the cause of her fame." added the last bit on the lead.

Yes. That gives a clearer explanation, I think.

Still some points

Sorry to be so long. I've had some troubles with IP blocking and other problems. In general I think the article is greatly improved. However, reading through again, a couple of other things jarred....

• "Two of her offspring were named Champion Quarter Running Horses, with seven stakes race wins."

Seven wins each, or seven between them?

Clarified to "and all her foals had a total of seven stakes race wins."

• "Chicaro Bill's dam, or mother, was a mare named Verna Grace, who was known as Fair Chance when she raced. Through Chicaro Bill, Chicado V was a descendent of the AQHA Hall of Fame member Traveler as well as the Thoroughbred Hall of Fame member Peter Pan.[6] On her dam's side, she traced to Louisiana Quarter Horse bloodlines as well as to the AQHA Hall of Famer Peter McCue.[4][7] She was a full sister to Senor Bill, an outstanding racehorse and breeding stallion, as well as a half-sister to Clabber II and Do Win, two other outstanding racehorses."

I was a bit confused by this and felt it might be clearer if you rearranged it so that the closest relatives were described earlier i.e.

She was a full sister to Senor Bill, an outstanding racehorse and breeding stallion, as well as a half-sister to Clabber II and Do Win, two other outstanding racehorses. Chicaro Bill's dam, or mother, was a mare named Verna Grace, who was known as Fair Chance when she raced. Through Chicaro Bill, Chicado V was a descendent of the AQHA Hall of Fame member Traveler as well as the Thoroughbred Hall of Fame member Peter Pan.[6] On her dam's side, she traced to Louisiana Quarter Horse bloodlines as well as to the AQHA Hall of Famer Peter McCue.[4][7]

Done.

• "A longtime trainer, Earl Holmes, who started his racing career as a groom for Vessels, had the care of Chicado V after she was born, and said of her that "was gentle, real gentle—in everything. She was born broke[n]."

The way this runs on from the previous sentence makes it confusing, despite the full stop (period.) Why not put the name first as in "Earl Holmes, a longtime trainer, ...

Done.

• Also, with FAC in mind, how about another illustration, lower down? If you don't have another picture of Chicado, how about putting in a picture of her stable or one of the racetracks mentioned?

I don't really see the need for a decorative picture like that, especially as any other photos of Chicado V would have to be fair use (assuming I can find one), and any free pictures of the various racetracks are likely to be changed from the days when she raced. I'm of the school of "add pictures if they help explain/illustrate the subject" and I don't see how a pic of a racetrack she raced at really helps much. If I had a pic of her racing, that'd be different, but photos from that time frame are all copyrighted, and hard to find to boot. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:42, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Xandar 01:04, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Moni3

• She also had a body defect, or conformation fault, in that she had calf-knees When using jargon, isn't it more common to have the technical term first, then the clarification? Shouldn't conformation fault be first, then body defect be the clarification?

• I just changed this to this order on Xandar's suggestion before. One suggests one way, one suggests another...Ealdgyth - Talk 20:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Pre-FAC comments for the win!

• Can you describe what calf knees are to non horsepeople, and why that might be a disadvtange in horse racing?

• Footnote on what a calf-knee is. Will explain a bit in that why it's a bad fault. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
• Have explained a bit more about what calf-knees cause problems with in the note. Basically, she'd have had problems jumping and doing lots of stopping, but racing wasn't too bad if they were careful. It's not a fault that is horrible, just not much fun.

• This sentence is labored: Chicado V was sent out for race training as a two-year-old, first to her owner Vessels' trainer, Farrell Jones, who did not like her because of the calf-knees as well as her habit of not running well in training. Suggest a break: Chicado V was sent out for race training as a two-year-old. She went first to her owner Vessels' trainer, Farrell Jones, who did not like her because of the calf-knees as well as her habit of not running well in training.

• Fixed.

• Can you be specific about what leg problems this horse had? I understand just about everything that goes wrong with a racehorse is leg or hoof-related.

• Sources just say "leg problems". Keep in mind that Quarter Horse racing during Chicado V's time didn't have a lot of newspaper coverage, etc. There aren't any articles in the Daily Racing Form for me to go look up, unfortunately.

• Overall as a racehorse seems redundant.

• Fixed.

• Do you think foals should be clarified in the Broodmare career section? I think it's a very common word as a noun. Not so much as a verb, as it's clarified in the lead.

• As I told Xandar above, I've been bit before on this one.

• This is my non-horseperson views coming out. Why was she inducted into a hall of fame with three wins, two seconds, and a third and total winnings of $5215? I consider hall of famers to be super notable, like Seabiscuit, Secretariat, or Man of War. If this is going to FAC, I suggest expanding her career section to discuss more about what made her special enough to earn a hall of fame designation. If that's not available, maybe discussing what the criteria are for hall of fame induction and how Chicado met them.

* the AQHA Hall of Fame isn't a racing only hall of fame (although you can be forgiven for thinking so since all three horses I've taken or will take to FAC shortly are race horses) Any horse can be considered, show horse, race horse, or for breeding. It's Chicado V's breeding career - mother of three outstanding race sires as well as the founder of a female family that was known for producing good race horses - that probably got her considered. There are no hard and fast rules for the AQHA's hall of fame, you get nominated and either voted in or not. Anyone can nominate for the comittee's consideration, and the committee doesn't come out and say WHY they were chosen, just that they were chosen. It's up to us peons to guess why.Ealdgyth - Talk 20:46, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

• Further, the rules on admission to the Hall of Fame are on the Hall of Fame page. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:07, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Let me know if you have questions. --Moni3 (talk) 20:20, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments from Brianboulton

I had no difficulty understanding the article, perhaps because the earlier contributors identified the main problems that non-horse folk would likely encounter. Rather than leave it at that, I have made some general review comments, though I have not had time to cover the last section.

• Lead
  • "went on to become an excellent broodmare herself". "Excellent" is a bit POVish; perhaps "noted"?
  • Would it be more accurate to say that her sons were the main or principal cause of her fame?
    • Changed both, but why is "excellent" POV but "noted" isn't? (Laughs). Rapid Volley is about as excellent a broodmare as her mother and maternal grandmother were, and I expect to see RV inducted into the Hall of Fame sooner or later. That'll be quite the honor for this female family, quite honestly. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
• Early life
  • "On her dam's side, she traced to Louisiana Quarter Horse bloodlines..." Is there something particularly significant about Louisiana Quarter Horse bloodlines?
• Racing career
  • Inelegant sentence: "She went first to her owner Vessels' trainer, Farrell Jones, who did not like her because of the calf-knees as well as her habit of not running well in training." This could be simplified to: "She went first to her owner Vessels' trainer, Farrell Jones, who liked neither her calf-knees nor her habit running poorly in training."
    • Fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
  • "her first race, a 350-yard (320 m) race..." Could we avoid the repetition of "race" by referring to a 350-yard "sprint"?
    • In the context of QH racing, 350 yards isn't a sprint. 220 yards is a sprint. 350 is mid-range, anything over 440 is "distance". I used "contest" instead. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
  • More awkwardness: "She started four times during her three-year-old year, winning once, and coming in second once and third once." I would revise this to "She started four times during her year as a three-year-old, winning once, with one second and one third place."
    • Went with "She started four times during her three-year-old year, winning once, with one second and one third place." Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
  • "...she lowered her track record from 18.1 to 17.9 seconds for the 350 yards (320 m) distance." Suggest "she lowered her track record for the 350 yards (320 m) distance from 18.1 to 17.9 seconds."
    • done. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
  • What does "easiest" mean in this context? Lowest level?
    • Yes. changed to "lowest level" Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
  • "as well as an AAAT speed rating, the fastest measure of how fast she was able to run." Cumbersome and not entirely clear. Could it be simplified to "as well as the top speed rating of AAAT." I think we can infer that the speed rating relates to her running speed.
    • I"ve adjusted this per the above discussion with Xandar, please take a look at the new formulation. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Do you have a source for the 2009 conversion of $5215?
    • Malleus got that, it's from the inflation template. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
  • "...the lack of stakes wins on the record does not mean that other records recording them are incorrect." Hard to follow. Does it mean "the lack of stakes wins on the computer records does not mean that other records of them are incorrect"?

I will look at the final section, if you think this will help. Brianboulton (talk) 23:52, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Please do! Anything I can do to massage my prose is good. As far as the Louisiana thing, it's mainly that she wasn't from Texas or Colorado, the main spots of QH breeding prior to the formation of the AQHA in 1940. It's important to QH people, not so much to others (and explaining it would bloat the article) I'll deal with the others in the morning, thunderstorms here tonight, so going to bed early. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:59, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Some added comments on the last paragraph:-

• "She also had one foal each sired by War Bam, Spotted Bull," etc. This is not grammatical; it needs to be "She also had one foal sired by each of War Bam, Spotted Bull,..." etc
  • Oh, but that's ugly formulation. Blech! Let's try ..."Her other five foals were sired by five different stallion, respectively..." Does that work? Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
• "He was unraced" - need to clarify who "he" is; presumably Three Bars, but it's not clear at present. Generally in this section I think the "hes and hers" may need some sorting out.
  • • Clarified and threw in some more clarificiations. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
• AAAT was explained earlier in the text, so no need to explain it again.
  • • Fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
• "grandget"? Unknown term to us non-horseys. Wiktionary?
  • • Grandget are grandchildren, basically. Explained. I don't touch Wiktionary. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
• "He was rated AAAT on the track as well as earning an AQHA Champion title as well in the show ring." Get rid of second "as well"
  • • fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
• Death and legacy: Can a race named in her honor in 1960, 12 years before her death, be considered as her "legacy"?
  • Yes. (grins). Few horses get races named for them, and this is a legacy of her racing career, which had long ended by that point. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
• Questions:-
  • Is it the convention for pedigree charts to read, chronologically, from right to left?
    • Yes. People ones do also. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)
  • What does (TB) in the chart signify?
    • Stole the explanation from Easy Jet (grins). Ealdgyth - Talk 16:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

That's all I can suggest. Hope these comments have been helpful. Brianboulton (talk) 23:40, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

revised lead?

• Current:She set three speed records during her short racing career, which was marred by knee problems. She started, or took part in races, only six times, winning three races, and was given the title of co-Champion Quarter Running Two-Year-Old Filly by the American Quarter Horse Association (or AQHA) in 1952.
• Revised: She raced only six times, as congenital knee problems cut short her racing career. However, she won her first two starts while breaking or equaling track records, and was given the title of co-Champion Quarter Running Two-Year-Old Filly by the American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA) in 1952. The next year she ran her last four races, winning once and setting one more speed record.
• Or maybe: "However, in 1952 she broke or equaled track records while winning her first two starts, and was given the title of co-Champion Quarter Running Two-Year-Old Filly by the American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA). Ling.Nut (talk) 04:24, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

• I'll take the most of it, but the "took part in races" DOES need to be there, otherwise folks will not understand, as proven above. Comprehension and understanding come before pure style issues here. (You indicated that you just didn't like it, not that it confused you.) If you have a better way of phrasing it, while still explaing, I'm open to ideas, but obviously people didn't understand what 'She started only six times.." meant. And in order to vary the terminology somewhat during the article, I need to be able to use "started" as well as "raced". Ealdgyth - Talk 12:01, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
• Also, they aren't necessarily congenital knee problems. There isn't any record that she passed them on to her offspring. They may have been congenital, they may have been enviromental, as a drought or other natural conditions can affect a foal very profoundly. I own a mare like that, who has a high heel brought on by drought when she was a yearling. Foal pictures of her don't show the high heel, but she developed it later purely through enviromental effects. Saying it's congenital is incorrect. It was a conformation flaw, and we don't know how it was aquired. Let's try: "She started, or took part in races, only six times as knee problems cut short her racing career. However, she won her first two starts while breaking or equaling track records, and was given the title of co-Champion Quarter Running Two-Year-Old Filly by the American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA) in 1952. The next year she ran her last four races, winning once and setting one more speed record." works for me. Ealdgyth - Talk 12:21, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

• Do whatever you want—just get rid of this:"She started, or took part in races, only six times, winning three races,". It is choppy; looks like someone wrote it while galloping on a horse. And as for "started..."... I am not a fan of any kind of racing at all, but I know very well what it means. To be honest, I'm not sure what grade level we're writing down to. But... sigh. Ling.Nut (talk) 23:40, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

• When Xandar comes along at the FAC and demands to know why what he wanted added was taken out, I'll turn him to you. It's out. I didn't like it either, but he wanted an explanation of what it meant there in the article. THIS is why FAC isn't much fun for nominators, people who pull one way then someone pulls another and you're stuck in the middle. Yes, I know that I'm being a pain about the congenital bit, but it's incorrect to call them that, and that's pretty much that. I know, I'm being a pain, but I went to a LOT of bother to get a lot of outside help on this one, Iri, Moni, Brian, and Xandar on top of my usual abuse of Malleus, so I'm kinda feeling abused too, if FIVE copyeditors isn't enough to make people happy, I'm starting to think that nothing is worth the bother. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:46, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
• Nah, stop spouting horse shit. It certainly is worth the bother. People will read this and know all there is to know about Chicado V... The congenital thing is not a problem at all, and when I read your reply, I was very happy that you explained the drought business to me. That is very good info; I'm happy to learn it (though I suppose it's unfortunate for the poor horsies). FIVE copyeditors may not best approach; you only need one or two or at most three good ones. Ling.Nut (talk) 00:07, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

• (whaps) Horses, horses, horses. Not "horsies" (wails) (Just kidding) ... horsies is a pet peeve. They are horses. I call my brats and goobers when they misbehave ... Thanks, Ling, I do appreciate it. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:12, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

(undent) I call my dog a puppy, and he's 13. It's a sign of affection. But I promise to do my best to be good from now on. Ling.Nut (talk) 00:17, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

My "puppy" is all of 60 pounds. The "horsies" weigh about 1000 pounds. It's a better idea to consider them as big dangerous beasts than cute little animals. But, yes, i know, people want to call them cutesy names....

V or Five?

So is the name Chicado V, as in five, like Charles V, or is it just the letter V, like Mad TV? Clarity would help a bit I think. 128.111.130.159 (talk) 03:50, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

It is "V", probably for Vessels, although no source ever states this. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:07, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.130.159 (talk) 02:42, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

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AQUA Citation to horse's induction page

Ealdgyth The citation should look like the following so I made a tiny edit today to change the title parameter from "chicado-v" to "Chicado V". chicado-v is only for the URL. It was my mistake in the previous edit.

American Quarter Horse Association (AQHA). "Chicado V". AQHA Hall of Fame. American Quarter Horse Association. Retrieved August 31, 2017.