Talk:Chinese martial arts

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Do not archive![edit]

Removal of Bodhidharma material[edit]

An Indian is the creator of Chinese martial art?[edit]

Adding masters to the "Notable practitioners" section[edit]

Legendary founders[edit]

So Bodhidharma's involvement in martial arts is legendary. So what? So is the Yellow Emperor's. Just create a "legendary origins" section and discuss this stuff there. It beats sprinkling the article with html comments asking people to not mention Bodhidharma.

I created the Bodhidharma at Shaolin section-redirect. This should be taken as the main reference to this topic. As it turns out, this is a tradition dating to the 17th century. This makes it rather relevant, as it turns out that the history of Chinese martial arts itself dates to the 17th century. Let me explain what I mean.

So we have tons of references stating that "there was combat in ancient China". Yeah, there was also combat in Europe, in the North American plains, and in the Congo. As it happens, this article completely over-emphasizes the snippets of information from remote antiquity, and completely ignores the period of actual historical interest. Yes, I am sure there has been martial arts in China since before 1000 BCE. The point is that very little is known about it. We have an article dedicated to this stuff, at Asian martial arts (origins).

The actual history of Chinese martial arts (in the sense of historicity, i.e. we have actual sources that can be used to reconstruct what these people were doing) apparently emerges from around the 16th century. The period of interest here should therefore be the 16th to 19th centuries (late Ming plus Qing). Sadly, this period is completely neglected here. We hear about the Yellow Emperor, the Shang dynasty, the Spring and Autumn annals, and what have you, but about the period of actual historicity, all we have is the off-hand reference to

"various literary genres of the late Ming: the epitaphs of Shaolin warrior monks, martial-arts manuals, military encyclopedias, historical writings, travelogues, fiction and poetry."

well, that's great. These various literary genres of late Ming, especially the martial arts manuals, should be what this article focusses on, because they will be the source of any historical presentation of Chinese martial arts. --dab (𒁳) 09:53, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Merger proposal[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
Clear consensus to keep the articles separate. --lTopGunl (talk) 18:10, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I have proposed merging Kung fu (term) into Chinese martial arts. The Chinese martial arts article itself specifies kung fu as a synonym. Granted the words in Chinese are not true synonyms but this is not a Chinese language article. These terms in English are essentially synonymous. To the extent that one could argue that there are subtle differences used in some contexts these can simply be explained in a single article. I don't see a rationale for two articles. As it stands the Kung fu (term) article is essentially just defining a term which, IMHO, violates WP:NAD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 20:44, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

  • Oppose: the Kung fu (term) article specifically states that its scope is broader then that of this article. I would suggest renaming Kung fu (term) to something making more sense instead. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:30, 31 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Support Oppose - I tend to agree with the IP that kung fu (term) is a dictionary definition, though if I have missed an obvious reason that it could be expanded into an encyclopaedic article then I might reconsider. Chinese martial arts is getting a little bit lengthy, perhaps, and it looks like it has already had material split from it several times, but I would not mind giving a little more space to the definition of kung fu there. — Mr. Stradivarius 22:46, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
    • I'm changing my recommendation to "oppose" because of Ottawakungfu's suggestion below that "kung fu" is a concept in Neo-Confucian philosophy, which was easily verified through a quick Google Books search. See, for example, this source. I agree with others that changing the name could be a good idea, though I'm not certain what to. Does anyone have any suggestions? — Mr. Stradivarius 05:22, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Article has a broader scope and the term itself has enough notability to have a separate article and that will not violate WP:WEIGHT in this case. That being said, the article should rather be renamed to something that covers the full scope per Czarcoff. --lTopGunl (talk) 00:52, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose: The anon needs to provide solid proof that the term is considered 100% synonymous with Chinese martial arts. As mentioned above, the article has a lot of potential due to the all encompassing meaning of the term (i.e., skill in any given discipline through effort). I support the name change as well. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 02:56, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
    I see what you're getting at, but WP:DICTIONARY doesn't set the bar quite as high as that. For the article to be kept, what needs to be proven is that the term is an encyclopaedic topic in its own right - i.e. it should be possible to extend the article beyond a description of the term's different meanings, its etymology, and its usage. I think that Ottawakungfu's suggestion below that it is a concept in Neo-Confucian philosophy would be enough reason to keep it. I'll have a look for sources and see if I can find anything. — Mr. Stradivarius 05:01, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose: "Kung Fu" is a Chinese term with many meanings historically e.g in Neo-Confucian philosophy, the term refers to moral effort. It is only recently that the term has been associated with Chinese martial arts. As suggested, the name could be changed to make this point more explicit. ottawakungfu (talk) 04:40, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

How real are the weapons scenes in periodic historic Chinese drama and films?[edit]

In historic Chinese drama and films, it appears that any Tom, Dick or Harriet can be carrying and displaying weapons such as long swords. Is this accurate? Could anybody just carry weapons in public in Chinese history? Did they need licences? Or were they simply banned? (talk) 01:31, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

ch'uan fa[edit]

Why does ch'uan fa redirect here, when there is no mention of the term at all in this article? Rhialto (talk) 14:04, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

I too have wondered about this. I have been told that the Japanese "kenpo" came from the Chinese "chuan fa", and that both mean "fist way"; that is, ken=chuan=fist and po=fa=way or art. I have noticed some movie titles which have "fist" in the English title have "chuan" in the Chinese title, which seems to support this translation. Also, see the article on tai chi ch'uan "Kung Fu" is shown, in this and other articles, to mean "human achievement". It seems that the two term "kung fu" and "chuan fa" are separate terms, with separate meanings. It therefore seems that, for the sake of completeness, this article should explain the term "chuan fa". Since I don't know the Chinese language, I would not be qualified to add such content.SRBirch922 (talk) 01:54, 20 August 2012 (UTC) so long how to read — Preceding unsigned

Deleting: Earliest references to Chinese martial arts, reference Extremely unreliable[edit]

Deleting "The earliest references to Chinese martial arts are found in the Spring and Autumn Annals (5th century BCE)Journal of Asian Martial Arts.

It is being deleted due to being attached to "Journal of Asian Martial Arts" which does not cite any references or reliable sources. The magazine is not well know and the names they have given from the ref is unknown. (talk) 00:56, 9 February 2014 (UTC)veda [2]

puzzling language about language[edit]

What does "or Cantonese" mean here? That there exists a Cantonese term??

I'd remove the comma before "and", but maybe I'm misunderstanding something. —Tamfang (talk) 07:16, 17 April 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ Varghese, Matthew (2003). "Cross-Cultural Relations between Dravidian India and Central China: New Evidences from the Tradition of Martial Art". Indian Folklore Research Journal 1 (3). 
  2. ^