Talk:Chovgan

Request for discussion

Az-507 has recently begun making disprutive edits on this article, by writing the name in the Azeri version, when it is actually much older than that and dates back to the Medes period (an Iranian people). Not to forget that he also made some disruptive edits about the Persian poet Nizami Ganjavi in this article[1].

Good day! Name of the game for a long time it was written in Azerbaijani, as long as you do not try to write it in Farsi. Etymology of the word comes from the Azerbaijani language. UNESCO also recognized this game as Azerbaijan. Do not confuse human evolution, its biological origin and language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Az-507 (talk • contribs) 21:31, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Okay.. that did not make sense. Where are the sources that supports what you say? and you did not answer about the Nizami Ganjavi thing. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:56, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Azerbaijani name of Azerbaijan national game

I don't understand why user HistoryofIran removes Azerbaijani name of this game. First of all the origin of this game is the topic of discussions. Not all sources claim that this game has an Iranian origin. In "Polo in India" book, what you refered to, there are several variants of origin (including Chinese). But if this game has not an Azerbaijani origin it doesn't matter that you can remove Azerbaijani name. This game is a national game in Azerbaijan and is played by Azerbaijani people as traditional game. This game was included in the list of the heritage of UNESCO as a traditional game in Azerbaijan. --Interfase (talk) 16:19, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

My friend, take a look on it again, or let me quote it for you: The origins of the game of polo are obscure, being CLAIMED by Iran, China, India and others. Some authors give dates as early as the 5th century BC (or earlier) to the 1st century AD for its origin by the Medes. Certainly the earliest records of polo are Median (an ancient Iranian people), and by the time of the Tang Dynasty, records of polo were well-established in China. You see it says claimed, i hope you know what that means. While it says that the earliest date of Chovgan is RECORDED during the Medes era.

Sigh... then i suppose we should add the Spanish and Danish name for Football just because it is played in those countries? no, the same thing goes with the Azeri language. Nowruz is included in the Masterpieces of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity of Azerbaijan (which is made by UNESCO), that does not mean it is Azeri nor that Azeri should be written in that article. The same thing goes with this article. --Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust (talk) 17:46, 16 January 2014

Comparetion with football is a failure way to do discussion. This game is not national game in Spain and Denmark, and is played in all another countries, also in Azerbaijan. But Chovgan is a traditional horse-game in Azerbaijan, and UNESCO also mentioned that. Azeri name of Novruz, by the way is written in the info box of this article. If Chovgan is recorded during Medes era it has nothing with removing of its traditional Azeri name. By the way, according to Britannica, Medes are, probably the oldest element of ethnogenes of Azerbaijanis.-Interfase (talk) 21:24, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Yes, your Novruz is written in the Nowruz article, but tell me exactly, how is it written, and did you exactly write it that way as it is written in Nowruz? i thought so. Please, tell me why i shouldn't report you for making false information about the Medes[2]. By the way Britannica is not reliable for the 100th time, look at the Wikipedia rules.

I have a suggestion about how we could make the article just to make you happy:

Chovgan (also known as Chogan, Chovqan, and Chaugan, Persian: Chōgān) is a sporting team game with horses and a version of the modern polo game. --Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust (talk) 11:21, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

According to Britannica: "The Azerbaijani are of mixed ethnic origin, the oldest element deriving from the indigenous population of eastern Transcaucasia and possibly from the Medians"[3]. Now you tell me why I shouldnt report you for false accusation. And Britannica is reliable source, more reliable than Wikipedia. Now about your suggestion, you suggest to add Azeri spelling, but want to hide an information that this spelling is Azeri and how Chovqan is written in Azeri. Why? By the way, I added in Novruz the information, that Novruz is an Azeri spelling. There also were information about Georgian, Urdu e.g. --Interfase (talk) 16:06, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Well, you could a least say which Britannica article said that, instead of making me trying to guess that. I don't get it, yes, the Azerbaijanis are more related to the Iranians, so what? does that mean that Chovgan was created by the Azeris, NO, it does not; it was still created by the Medes. And as i said before, Britannica is not reliable (even if it was it would make no use to your claim, not to mention what you say about that doesn't make any sense about your claim). Yes, go ahead and report me for nothing. By the way, i will remove what you have done the Nowruz article, since then we would have to add all the languages, and that would be a little mess. If you really are so fond of doing that, do everyone in Wikipedia a favor and do it in the Novruz in Azerbaijan section, which you can also do in the Azeri section about Chovgan, but NOT in the lead section. --Mossadegh-e Mihan-dust (talk) 18:40, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

OK. I added Azerbaijani name of the game into the section "Chovgan in Azerbaijan". --Interfase (talk) 18:57, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Deleting name in Azerbaijani language, regarded as vandalism

Name in Azerbaijani language was from the very beginning of creating articles. And it was removed pan-iranists that after the recognition of the UNESCO Azerbaijani game, deleted the Azerbaijani name and added instead of the name of the Persian language, which did not exist before. I return the name to Azerbaijan, and please continue not to delete. The very etymology of the name comes from the Azerbaijani language. And this is the game originated in the territory of Azerbaijan. UNESCO is the authoritative source. The name of the Farsi-language here is much more unnecessary... And it was added very recently. I think it is unnecessary here! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Az-507 (talk • contribs) 12:29, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Name of the Azerbaijani language has been removed after UNESCO recognized this game Azerbaijani. And the name of the Persian was not here at all ... If you delete a name in the Azerbaijani language, first remove the name in the language of the Persians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Az-507 (talk • contribs) 12:34, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Old sockpuppet. See Special:Contributions/Az-507 and Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Az-507. --Wario-Man (talk) 05:05, 1 September 2019 (UTC)

Merge with polo?

It is not clear from this article what makes "Chovgan" different from "Polo", if there even is a difference. In fact, the History and Origins sections in chovgan are basically outdated versions of the polo article. I suggest we merge them Borek 9 (talk) 08:20, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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User:Akocsg

• User:Akocsg dude, the word is an iranian/persian term. don't add your own stuff to the lede https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Chovgan&diff=837137232&oldid=831927908] . old discussion User:HistoryofIranTalk:Chovgan#Azerbaijani_name_of_Azerbaijan_national_game
• your other change was an obvious ethnocentrist attempt.[4]

copy and pasting redundant unesco part to the lead, changing words to please yourself and etc. all of your so-called "fixes" was a cheap attempt bold azerbaijan or turkic in the article and removing mentioning of origins and other ethnicities.188.158.109.23 (talk) 06:18, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

See WP:LEAD. Please read and understand the rules first, before you make disruptive edits. The rest of your accusation doesn't make any sense to me, mazy writing...

Your link to the old talk page shows well and underlines how the relevantAzerbaijani version was again simply deleted. So stop deleting relevant sourced content and constructive fixes. Akocsg (talk) 17:50, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

As the user above said, the word is clearly of Iranian origin, and all you did was changing words to make it fit into your POV. It doesn't work that way here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 20:01, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Lead

@Interfase: I do not speak or comprehend Russian, but Google translate disagrees with your translation of the above sentence ... To be clear, "Древняя игра човган была широко распространена у азиатских народов. Одна из ее разновидностей широко культивировалась и в Азербайджане... Човган имеет распространение также у таджиков и узбеков." does not mean "this game is played in Azerbaijan, Iran, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan" but "The ancient chovgan game was widespread among the Asian peoples. One of its varieties was widely cultivated in Azerbaijan ... Chovgan is also widespread among Tajiks and Uzbeks". Also, that source seems to be focused on games played in USSR republics, it's quite far from a reliable historic source (oddly, there is no mention of Iran/Persia while this game originated there) ... I reverted your last edit until a consensus is found with a better source than the one that is currently cited in the article.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 08:04, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

The article is written by specialist on horsebriding V. Parfenov. It is reliable source. And there is nothing about "other regions in the Iranian cultural sphere". If you agree we can state that "The game was widespread among the Asian peoples. It is played in Iran, Azerbaijan and among Tajiks and Uzbeks" as per source. --Interfase (talk) 08:12, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Agreed and done for the edit. However, i still think that the source is not that good and should be replaced with a better one. I'll see what i can do about it.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 15:51, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

@Wikaviani: It's still a mess. Could you summarize it and move historical and UNESCO stuff to proper sections? --Wario-Man (talk) 20:01, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done But please let me know if you disagree with my changes.---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 23:43, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

@Wikaviani: I think Sasanian and last parts should be moved to "History" and "Chovgan in Iran":

• Chowgan or Chogan (Persian: چوگان čōwgan), known as Chowkan in the Sasanian Empire (Middle Persian: čowkān),[2][3] is a sporting team game with horses that originated in ancient Iran (Persia).[4] It was considered an aristocratic game and held in a separate field, on specially trained horses. The game was widespread among the Asian peoples. It is played in Iran, Azerbaijan and among Tajiks and Uzbeks.[4] Chovgan was a Persian national sport played extensively by the nobility. Women played as well as men.[5]

My suggestion

• Chovgan, Chowgan, or Chogan (Persian: چوگان čōwgan) is a sporting team game with horses that originated in ancient Iran (Persia).(source) It was considered an aristocratic game and held in a separate field, on specially trained horses. The game was widespread among the Asian peoples. It is played in Iran, Azerbaijan and among Tajiks and Uzbeks.

Does it look better/simpler? What do you think about it? --Wario-Man (talk) 05:17, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Fine by me, thanks very much for your proposal. Do you want me to go ahead and proceed, or do you prefer to do it yourself ?---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 11:54, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

Please do it by yourself. Thanks. --Wario-Man (talk) 11:57, 4 October 2020 (UTC)

 Done---Wikaviani ^{(talk) (contribs)} 14:58, 4 October 2020 (UTC)