Talk:Christian churches and churches of Christ

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Watchman Herald[edit]

The "Watchman Herald" link has no place on this page. This paper is published by members of the non-instrumental Churches of Christ; I'm not really sure if it would be considered as "mainstream" even among them. Please quit just sticking the link onto this page; if you insist on doing so, please at least show the rest of us the courtsey of establishing an account, logging on to this page, and justifying what you are doing to the rest of us so that we can discuss it.

Rlquall 15:43, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Sort by state...[edit]

I'd like to change the list of churches to list them by state then country. The current list is poorly organized at best.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Ckvkkeek (talkcontribs) 14:15, September 22, 2006

I agree that would be useful. Census regions don't mean much to most people. --Danny Reese 20:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)
According to the article, the movement has 5500–6000 different congregations. Should we even have a list of member churches at all? -Branddobbe 06:43, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
It seems like useful information to have, but perhaps not on the main page. We could create another page called "List of Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ" or something like that, and then reserve the main article for more descriptive info. Just a thought. --Danny Reese 15:45, 2 October 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Branddobbe. Entire sections of this article have become an external link repository which is not really appropriate. The list is already much longer than the rest of the article and should be removed. -- Satori Son 21:06, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Satori. I prefer the first item in the Ext. Link section [1] over a hodge-podge list of churches. I've been meaning to see how other denom. deal with this. Some include a list of dioceses (1) or synods (2), which have no correlation to this article. Others include a list of megachurches (3) or the largest churches (4). I wouldn't object to the latter within this article, if there were a good source, or at least splitting the list to a separate article. --Spiffy sperry 22:23, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
I believe the link to the locater is sufficient. Many of the churches listed are linked to that site anyway. I think it would be worthwhile to link the annual list of Megachurches from The Christian Standard (I added a link to the Standard's web site) Links to the pdf. If that is awkward then we could move that into another page called Christian Church Megachurches and include the text in tere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrBobBrown (talkcontribs) 01:29, January 15, 2007

Based upon the emerging consensus here, and Wikipedia guidelines, I have removed the List of Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ section. The current websites included under External links will direct any interested reader to the information, and there are some other options mentioned above which would not overwhelm this article. -- Satori Son 18:02, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Citation Needed for Property Issues[edit]

This article states as a fact that "During this time the DoC made several attempts to take over facility and property ownership from many Independent congregations and Independents attempted to take over facility and property ownership from many DoC congregations. In this 45+ years both types of congregations were forced to seek legal representation. Representation was necessary in order to maintain ownership of their property and to prevent eviction and forfeiture of assets." There are debates about how much this happened. If there were legal cases they should be referenced; if you make a claim like "many churches" than some survey should be cited. Atterlep 22:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Churches_of_Christ&oldid=103905843 alludes to these court cases.jonathon (talk) 15:44, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Citing the Bible[edit]

While the Bible would be an appropriate source in an article written by a member of the church to explain the reasons for a doctrine, it isn't the appropriate kind of source to verify that a doctrine is indeed practiced by the independent Christian Churches and Churches of Christ. I've removed the Bible verses that were used as sources for specific CoC beliefs, but they'll need to be replaced with sources writing specifically about this group of churches, and I know that many of the most useful of those are in books that I don't have. If anyone out there can provide better sources, that would be groovy. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:34, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit]

Where did that logo come from? Given the autonomous nature of these congregations, I have major doubts that any of them accept it as a corporate logos for their strain of the CoC. jonathon (talk) 02:10, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

It seems to come from this web site, which doesn't make any claim for it as an official logo of the CoC. While I appreciate that pictures = good on Wikipedia, I think the logo is presented as an official logo representing the whole group of churches, and that isn't what it is. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 14:16, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Baptism Section[edit]

I would suggest that the baptism section needs some rework, as it is at odds with the practice in many of the ICC/CoC churches, who believe in salvation by grace alone, and that baptism is the public expression of the inward change upon acceptance of Christ. If you look at the statements of faith from many (if not most) of the major ICC/CoC churches, they would be at odds with what is recorded in this article.

Example from the largest ICC/CoC (Louisville Southeast) <http://www.southeastchristian.org/sqa/life.aspx?id=168 here>:

The act of baptism cannot save an individual. We are saved only through accepting Christ's sacrifice on the cross. Baptism demonstrates the believer's acceptance of Christ and is the point of time when the believer receives assurance of his or her faith.

As it is written, though, I'm not sure you'd get most churches to agree with the characterization put forth.--Lyonscc (talk) 18:55, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Since only three of the bullet points in the article can't be supported by cites to that website --- but can be supported by cites to other CoC church websites, I'm not sure how they would be at odds with what the article claims. jonathon (talk) 23:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
Suggestion: Rewrite the section in the talk page, so it does not say what you think is at odds with the data on that link.jonathon (talk)

This section very much sounds like advocacy cloaked in descriptive language. The objections raised by "those of a Calvinistic" persuasion and the counterpoints to the objection sound very much like advocacy. In addition, the use of the "proof texts" lends to the idea of advocacy. This is a description of the theology of the movement. This is not supposed to advocate. Nor are encyclopedia article supposed to be an exhaustive treatment of the rationale for positions. They need to describe and direct the reader to the right sources for more exhaustive research. I'll try to clean up the language at a later date. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Koine2002 (talkcontribs) 12:03, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

"Fundamentally Identical"[edit]

As I've been a member of both Churches of Christ and Christian Churches, I question the statement that "The instrumental Christian Churches and the a cappella Churches of Christ are otherwise fundamentally identical." There are several differences, probably the most important being that Christian Churches are fundamentalist in character, while the Churches of Christ are not. I think this sentence should be removed. Dwight911 (talk) 06:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Proposed move[edit]

The current name of this page, Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ seems rather artificial. I am concerned that it comes across as a proper name, and that it is one that Wikipedia has created. I propose instead that we move the page to Christian Churches and Churches of Christ, which is more descriptive and seems less like a proper name. Furthermore, the latter gets 6 or 7 times as many hits in a Google search.

I am wondering if there is any comment before I go ahead and attempt the move. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 16:33, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

It works for me. Where you might find a rub is that some may consider "Christian Church" to be a generic description of all Christian churches. I have no problems, though.--Lyonscc (talk) 20:23, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Rename[edit]

The current article name was invented by Wikipedia, but comes across as a proper name. I propose renaming it to "Christian Churches and Churches of Christ", which is more descriptive and seems less like a proper name, not to mention it gets 6 or 7 times as many hits in a Google search. However, the rename would involve a lot of collateral work, so I want to make sure there is broad support before taking action. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 18:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Support, but I don't think it's a lot of work—seems like a relatively-simple page move, and the caps are needed because these are the names of denominations. Good luck and all the best,--Miniapolis (talk) 15:01, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, I've now finished the work I had in mind, which was fixing all the linked references. I disagree on the caps because it is not actually the proper name of anything. There is no denominational organization. It is a descriptive name for individual congregations that more or less flock together. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 18:18, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
I thought your RFC was to rename the article using capital letters.--Miniapolis (talk) 16:17, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, after a long time of no comments, I went ahead and made the change I had suggested. The old article name was "Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ". --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 21:18, 17 October 2011 (UTC)
I would strongly suggest changing the name of this article back to something along the lines of the old title, "Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ". There has been confusion about names from the beginning of the Restoration Movement, and the current article name does nothing to help clarify things for the reader. There are two completely different groups that have very similar names: the "Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)" and the "Churches of Christ". Naming this article "Christian Churches and Churches of Christ" makes it look like we're talking about some combination of the other two. The Encyclopedia of the Stone-Campbell Movement uses the term "Christian Churches/Churches of Christ," which isn't ideal. Others call them "Independent Christian Churches" or "Independent Churches of Christ" because they separated from the "Christian Church (Disciples of Christ)". While a title along the lines of "Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ" is somewhat artificial, it has the virtue of bringing some clarity to a confusing topic. If we're concerned that it might be taken as a proper name, we can easily drop a sentence or two about the various names that are used into the lede. EastTN (talk) 22:40, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
Not surprisingly, I disagree.  :) The current name (for posterity, in case it changes, it's "Christian churches and churches of Christ") is really not much different from what you propose, "Christian Churches/Churches of Christ." The primary differences are twofold, and I see them both as improvements: it avoids the awkward "Churches/Churches" and it clarifies the status as a common noun by keeping both instances of "churches" in the lowercase.
As for confusion with related movements, using "churches" instead of "Church" should be plenty sufficient to distinguish the article subject from the Christian Church (Disciples of Christ). Distinguishing from the Churches of Christ is tricky in any case, as neither movement has a proper proper name (if you will), but I don't think the current version is any worse than any other. I wouldn't mind "Independent Christian churches" (or even "Churches"), except that some congregations go by "church of Christ" and not "Christian church." --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 21:50, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
Confusion (and disagreement) over names has dogged the Restoration Movement from the beginning! Actually, you've done a better job than I did of laying out my reasoning. "Independent Christian Churches" is the least confusing of the alternatives, and it has the advantage of giving a nod to the history with the "Christian Churches (Disciples of Christ)". But, as you correctly point out, some congregations go by "church of Christ". That leads to "Independent Christian Churches/Churches of Christ", awkward as it may be. I would be fine with "Independent Christian churches and churches of Christ", but it's getting a bit long.
On the capitalization, don't count on keeping the lowercase "churches" instead of "Churches". We fought that battle long and hard on the "Churches of Christ" page, and eventually lost. Most wikipedia editors not associated with the Restoration Movement interpret the article naming guidelines as requiring capitalization. I strongly prefer the lower case myself, because that's the more common usage within the movement - but my experience is that when the wider community gets engaged, it's highly likely that the words "church" and "churches" will end up capitalized.
Bottom line, I'll modify my proposal to "Independent Christian churches and churches of Christ". That would help, in my judgement, to make the distinction between the groups a bit clearer. I suspect the capitalization will be modified at some point in the future, but sufficient unto the day. EastTN (talk) 20:03, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
"Independent Christian churches and churches of Christ" is fine with me. I don't think the length is any objection. WP:TITLE says that the title should be "no longer than necessary to identify the article's subject and distinguish it from other subjects." For a subject with such a difficult naming issue, I think this qualifies.
Regarding capitalization, I agree with you that the churches of Christ should also be treated as a common noun. That means that the article title should be capitalized (just like, e.g., airplane or honey), but that the subject name should not be capitalized when it is not the first word of a sentence. In the "battle" you mentioned, which of the two was at issue? --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 12:17, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Invited to comment, first off, the lede is completely out of compliance.[edit]

"The Christian churches and churches of Christ are a part of the Restoration Movement ..." First concern: aren't we talking about proper names which need to be capitalized? Second concern: no citation Third concern: Factually incorrect in that "Church of Christ" can refer to more than one denomination and the lede does not distinguish them. GeoBardSemi-retired 00:31, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

1) This grouping of churches has no formal organization, thus it is not a proper name. 2) Which statement do you doubt the truth of? We can discuss your concerns and add a citation if necessary. 3) The lede does not say "Church of Christ" but "Churches of Christ", which is a common name for a grouping of churches closely related to the subject of this article. --BlueMoonlet (t/c) 14:33, 25 October 2011 (UTC)