Talk:Westland CL.20

Draft needs help

Discussion moved from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Aircraft#A draft at AFC needs help

Please help the author of Draft:Cierva CL.20 get the draft into acceptable shape. A shortage of good references is keeping it from being accepted. It currently relies on a single book source. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:48, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm slightly confused! A C.20 is covered at Cierva C.19 (but perhaps this is not a CL.20?!!). I wouldn't bar it from creation if it is a different aircraft type and for using only one reliable source (sometimes that's all we have). Navboxes could be added. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 11:26, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Gets mentions in Flight article in 1955 though Westland CL.20 seems an equally plausible article title. Or even "Westland-Lepere" [1]. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

"Westland-Lepere" definitely seems to be an alias of this autogiro, (going by this picture and description in Flight). GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:28, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

CL 20 (Cierva-Lepere) is a different aircraft from the C.20. I think the C20 was a German produced C19, according to the article for the C19. The modern naming convention seems to be Cierva C.L20, based on the description in the Westladn-Augusta website. But to be honest I cant understand why, when most of the work seems to have been done by Westlands KreyszigB (talk) 21:00, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Any objections if I move this discussion to the draft's talk page? I have several comments to make. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:04, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Good idea, yes move this to the article talk page. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:41, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

According to AfC's standards, with two good sources the draft is now ready to move to mainspace - but what should the title be? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:54, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Flight at the time called it the "Westland-Lepere Autogiro". Westland themselves call it the "Cierva CL.20", but then they omit "Westland" from most of the titles in their histories, both on their historical web site at http://history.whl.co.uk/ and in Lukins' book, so "Westland Cierva CL.20" might be one logical choice. "Westland CL.20" gets the most hits on Google. Flight were presumably airing it before full type details had been released, so we should perhaps not take them as our guide. Rather, I'd suggest we will need to unearth a listing in a definitive reference work such as Jane's. Meanwhile, I think it better to publish now, even if we have to move the article later. Simplest is to stick with the title we have, for now at least. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 13:28, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Flight also have it as "Westland CL20" writing post-war (I'll add a link here when I've found it). Westland is definitely the manufacturer, "Cierva-Lepere" is the design (as in a version of a Cierva autogiro by Lepere?) - this would fit in with the "manufacturer-model" style designations that we tend to use. GraemeLeggett (talk) 13:37, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

@Steelpillow: "Publish with the current title" or "publish now"? In other words, assuming you saw this article in a deletion discussion, do you feel that, as it stands today, it would be kept or deleted? This is, broadly, the decision a WP:AFC reviewer makes when they decline a draft and push it back for further work, or they accept it. Fiddle Faddle 13:37, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Wearing my AFC reviewer hat - I am confident that this draft as it stands now is acceptable for mainspace. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:02, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Done! Keep in mind that Redirects are cheap so we can easily link from all the reliably sourced names/designations this aircraft type has ever had. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:07, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Reliably sourced names for this aircraft type

These designations are used in various sources, but which can reliably be accepted as official names? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 16:23, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• Cierva CL.20
• Cierva-Lepère CL.20
• Westland CL.20
• Westland-Lepère Autogiro

Length

Lukins gives the length as 20 ft. 3 ins. (6.17 m.). Who do we believe? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 12:59, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

In fact as it stands right now, the overall length (rotors turning) is given as less than the rotor diameter. That has to be wrong. I'll edit to at least give a consistent set of data. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:13, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

The Westland fact sheet at http://history.whl.co.uk/cierva_cl_20.html agrees with Lukins, so I'll use that. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 08:14, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Another source

FWIW, A.J. Jackson 1973, 'British Civil Aircraft since 1919' Volume 2, ISBN 0370100107, p. 23 (Under Cierva C.30A) says: "A certain amount of development work had been done on a side-by-side two seat cabin Autogiro built by Westland Aircraft Ltd. to the design of G. Lepere. Power was supplied by a 90 h.p. Niagara III radial in an enclosed cowling. The prototype, G-ACYI, known as the Westland CL.20 and first flown at Hanworth by H. A. Marsh on 4 February 1935, was not proceeded with because the Cierva Company was by that time engaged on a more important line of research as a result of experiments which had taken place at Hanworth in 1933 with the C.30 G-ACFI fitted with a special rotor head enabling a direct take-off without forward run."

I can't verify details in the James 1991 ref, but suggest that Cierva (the man) would probably not have made the first flight, more likely R. Brie or H.A. Marsh, who both carried out test flying for Cierva (the UK company).PeterWD (talk) 15:49, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

James 1991 (page 255) implies that Cierva made the first flight "...G-ACYI was dismantled and transported to Hanworth for Juan Cierva to continue these trials. He made the first short flight .... on 5 February,..." BUT in Harald Penrose's autobiography "Adventure with fate" (page 168) he implies that Allan Marsh made the first flight " ...So the CL 20 was dismantled and sent to Hanworth where in the hands of that tought little pilot Alan Marsh it eventually flew-" I wonder if a lot of facts like this just get lost in the mists of time. KreyszigB (talk) 19:57, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Found some bits and pieces in a trawl through Flight. Parts of the picture?

picture on this page with "Westland CL20" writ on its side says in accompanying text "Successful test flights were made by R. A. C. Brie..."

the pic on this page shows it (in unfinished state?) outside a building with Cierva Autogiro above the doors.

"Westland Autogiros" has speculation that it's design is similar to a Lepere design of 1932.

Brie (who appears to have been the British expert on autogyros and helicopters - at least in flying them) says"...it had been constructed by Westland Aircraft to the designs of M. George Lepere, chief engineer to Liore" et Olivier," but makes no mention of Cierva (or Brie's part) in it. GraemeLeggett (talk) 19:14, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Meanwhile Munson, in his "Helicopters: and other Rotorcraft since 1907", Blandford, Revised Edition (1973), Pages 101-102, writes in the entry for the Cierva C.1 to C.40, "The CL.10 and CL.20 were other cabin variants designed by Le Père (sic) and built respectively by Lioré et Olivier in France and Westland in the United Kingdom."

One has to ask, if Lepere (no grave accent, I believe) worked for LeO and Westland built it, why does everybody keep attributing it to Cierva? It seems more consistent with the majority of sources that Lepere was not an employee of either Cierva or LeO, but more of a consultant to them.

— Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:51, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

For Georges Lepère, see also Packard-Le Père LUSAC-11.PeterWD (talk) 20:36, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Engine power

The Pobjoy Niagara article does not list a 90hp model of the engine. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 08:50, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Gunston's World Encyclopaedia of Aero Engines gives the Niagra III as 95 hp. One difficulty here is that the bare engine's rated output in horsepower (hp) and the installation's output in shaft horse power (shp) may differ slightly. Which do we prefer for aircraft articles? (although manufacturers of, and other sources for, the aircraft often fail to distinguish the two) — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 10:56, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

The engine was also changed to a more powerful model during development, so different sources may be referring to different engines. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 11:02, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

Niagara III - Bore/stroke 77 x 87 mm (3.03x3.43 in), swept volume 2,835 cc (173 cu in). Gearing 0.47:1. Normal continuous power 88 hp (66 kW) at 3,300 rpm at sea level. from:- Lumsden, Alec. British Piston Engines and their Aircraft. Marlborough, Wiltshire: Airlife Publishing, 2003. ISBN 1-85310-294-6.

Powerplant: One 95 hp Pobjoy S Niagara seven-cylinder radial air-cooled, geared and normally-aspirated engine driving a 7 ft 3 in diameter two-bladed wooden propeller. From:- James, Derek, N (1991). Westland Aircraft since 1915. Putnam. pp. 253–256. ISBN 0-85177-847-X.--Petebutt (talk) 23:44, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

I suggest that the 95hp is the max take-off power, which will be more than max continuous!!--Petebutt (talk) 23:45, 30 August 2014 (UTC)

BTW where does the "S" in "Pobjoy S Niagara" come from? I haven't seen such a designation anywhere else. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:57, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Barely one mention of it in Flight but that the Niagara/Cataract followed the "Pobjoy P" and "Pobjoy R" engines might have something to do with it. GraemeLeggett (talk) 12:03, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Westland CL.20

This aircraft is actually a Westland design, in co-operation with Lepere. see:-James, Derek N. (1991). Westland aircraft since 1915 (Rev. and updated. ed.). London: Putnam. pp. 253–256. ISBN 085177847X.

Yet Westland themselves call it the Cierva CL.20. There has to be a reason for that. I am reminded of an aircraft which was initially designed by J W Dunne but the detail design and construction were carried out by Short Brothers. It is occasionally referred to as the "Short-Dunne D.5" but usually just the Dunne D.5, never the "Short D.5". If we follow this example then "Westland CL.20" is not appropriate either. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 09:47, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Though (as mentioned by me earlier) "Westland CL20" was actually written on the fuselage....GraemeLeggett (talk) 20:42, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

• On the UK CAA website GINFO, the name for G-ACYI is summarised as "Westland CL20", but we can view a scan of the original registration entry (24 Sep 1934), handwritten as "Westland Autogiro CL.20".http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/HistoricalMaterial/G-ACYI.pdf
• The best sources show the name Georges Lepère spelt thus with a grave accent.
• Westland Agusta is spelt thus.
• Of all the published photos of the CL.20, I believe two were taken at Yeovil, being a right side view and a 3/4 front left view, when it was in an unpainted state, with main wheel spats fitted. Other photos were taken of it after re-assembly at Hanworth, similarly unpainted but minus the spats, then further photos after being painted with the registration and name. Note that the topography of Hanworth was, and remains, completely flat and level, unlike Yeovil (I'm personally familiar with both locations). Hopefully, we will be able to source one or more free images.PeterWD (talk) 11:11, 2 September 2014 (UTC)