Talk:Cirth

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???[edit]

Who wrote this? and why do people care more about the tengwar that the angerthas???Jrcrisologo 03:03, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

A list of the people who have contributed to this article can be seen on the history page. --CBDunkerson 10:27, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

this is an awful article. doesn't fit in with formatting standards. inadequate information. doesn't cite sources of information. i don't know how to do it because i'm a newbie but i suggest a senior merge it with the other article "cirth" as was suggested by the other user or at the very elast exand on the information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony4moroney (talkcontribs) 12:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

IPA?[edit]

Maybe the table that shows the Cirth characters should have the IPA in it, just to help with pronunciation. Seriously, it's as if a child wrote it. How is anyone supposed to know what the table is talking about? I could add the IPA pronunciation myself, but I don't know how to pronounce the letters. Adding the IPA would probably make more sense than "nj-z" or "&" or "+h". I could also possibly upload some images of the runic letters for those who don't have the unicode to support them, which would make more sense than "mirror rune of ᚹ w". Also, characters number 57 and 58 don't appear to have any kind of pronunciation, and the footnotes don't seem to lead anywhere. In short, that table seems pretty darn confusing. Cloudy fox 001 (talk) 22:58, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Certh 1.svg p Certh 16.svg ʒ Certh 31.svg l Certh 46.svg ɛ
Certh 2.svg b Certh 17.svg ndʒ–z Certh 32.svg Certh 47.svg ɛ:
Certh 3.svg f Certh 18.svg k Certh 33.svg ŋg–nd Certh 48.svg ɑ
Certh 4.svg v Certh 19.svg g Certh 34.svg s–h Certh 49.svg ɑ:
Certh 5.svg ʍ Certh 20.svg x Certh 35.svg s–ʔ Certh 50.svg ɔ
Certh 6.svg m Certh 21.svg ɣ Certh 36.svg z–ŋ Certh 51.svg Certh 51a.svg ɔ:
Certh 7.svg ɱ, mb Certh 22.svg ŋ–n Certh 37.svg ŋg* Certh 52.svg Certh 52a.svg œ
Certh 8.svg t Certh 23.svg Certh 38.svg Certh 38a.svg nd–ndʒ Certh 53.svg n*
Certh 9.svg d Certh 24.svg Certh 39.svg i, (j) Certh 54.svg h–s
Certh 10.svg θ Certh 25.svg Certh 40.svg j* Certh 55.svg Certh 55a.svg ə* ?
Certh 11.svg ð Certh 26.svg ɣʷ, w Certh 41.svg ç* ? Certh 56.svg Certh 56a.svg ʌ* ?
Certh 12.svg n–r Certh 27.svg ŋgʷ Certh 42.svg u Certh 57.svg ps*
Certh 13.svg Certh 28.svg Certh 43.svg u: Certh 58.svg ts*
Certh 14.svg Certh 29.svg r–dʒ Certh 44.svg w Certh 59.svg ʰ
Certh 15.svg ʃ Certh 30.svg r̥–ʒ Certh 45.svg Certh 45a.svg y Certh 60.svg &
The transliteration values are taken from the Lord of the Rings Appendix E. The problem with adding IPA (which I'm for) is that the Cirth are used to write several different languages. I could probably add IPA for Sindarin though it might contain some guesswork. Khuzdûl on the other hand I know almost nothing about. There are also some inconsistencies between the transliteration schemes Tolkien used for his languages. This one seems to represent yet another one. In Sindarin y represents [y] while in Quenya it represents [j]. Here I suppose y is [j] and ü is [y]. Then there's ch which is [x] in Sindarin but here I believe it's [tʃ]. Instead [x] is represented by kh, though in Khuzdûl that would represent [kʰ] – I assume +h is used to mark aspiration with this scheme. I could go on but I just wanted to illustrate how complicated it is. —Tasnu Arakun (talk) 22:23, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I can also add that the current table is terrible. First of I agree that Unicode characters should not be used, though mainly for the reason that Cirth is not yet part of the Unicode standard. I have made and uploaded SVG images of the 60 cirth to Commons and arranged them in a nice table. Then there are some cirth missing while alternative glyph shapes (e.g. 37, 38) are considered separate characters. The column "corresponding runic glyph" should probably be removed – it looks like someone's own research to me. —Tasnu Arakun (talk) 22:42, 5 June 2009 (UTC)
I have now replaced the table with a new one. This one is more compact, uses svg-images and does hopefully not contain any errors. It still uses Tolkien's transliteration scheme though. However, I'll post a table with IPA values bellow. It should be mostly correct for Sindarin, but less so for Quenya and Khuzdûl. The cirth marked with '?' i really don't have a clue and are just wild guesses. Please enjoy! —Tasnu Arakun (talk) 11:26, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

mh won't be [ɱ]; rather it will presumably be old Sindarin lenited m, [ṽ]. The other guesses look reasonable, though I might've written devoiced [j̥] rather than [ç]. 4pq1injbok (talk) 21:31, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Notes to the table[edit]

I've modified the annotation of the table in §Letters.

  • Tolkien used the notation "(_)" for cirth and sound-values in Elvish use only, and "_*" for cirth and sound-values in Dwarvish use only. Since the meanings are parallel, I've substituted "_°" (U+00B0 degree sign) for the parentheses.
  • Since readers expect an asterisk to refer to a footnote, I've rearranged the notes to give * and ° footnote lines of their own, rather than leaving them embedded in a single long sentence in the middle of the paragraph as Tolkien did.
  • I've added a note to explain the apostrophe in the third column, fifth row:
    Certh 35.svg s–’ †
  • The "–" separating older and newer values for the same certh is a dash, not a hyphen.

--Thnidu (talk) 03:44, 12 November 2013 (UTC)