Talk:Clan Cameron

Crest

I can't get this thing to go where it should (under the Clan name). Both branch clan pages also have this trouble. Canaen 01:29, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Added website

I put the Clan Cameron website in the sidebar, had a bit of difficulty with the formatting, but it seems to be all right now. J.Fries 09:16, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

Gentle Locheil

If you had bothered to check out the Clan Cameron links you might have discovered that the fate of Donald Cameron, the ninteenth chief of Clan Cameron, is very far from being 'unknown'. After Culloden he found refuge in France, where he was appointed colonel of a regiment in Flanders. He died in the town of Bourge in October 1748. Rcpaterson 00:39, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for that information. If you would like to add it to the article, please feel free, and try to provide a source if you can. Canaen 05:15, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Motto

You will note at the bottom of the Arms the motto, "Mo kigh's mo dhubhaich" (spelling?), "For king and country". I thought that was the clan motto.RandallC 12:04, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Close paraphrase

text is very similar to that found at www.clan-cameron.org - history. yours ever, Czar Brodie (talk) 01:25, 16 April 2009 (UTC)

David Cameron (Prime Minister)

There seems to be at least one editor who states that David Cameron, British Prime Minister is a "member" of Clan Cameron. Although he does not have to be descended from the chief to be a member of the clan, there should be some proper reference to show that he is a member of the Clan Association.mjgm84 (talk) 08:49, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Once Again, Another Celtic Pictish Clan being given ludicrous Norman Origins

It's really become a disturbing pattern here on Wikipedia, and it seems mostly caused by one poster, Quintus garbage. The Camerons are Picts, as were the Chattan, the Davidsons, the MacPhersons and many others. They split the Clan Chattan because of the rift that was appearing between the MacPherson's and the Mackintosh's. The Norman origin claim is used by subordinate septs or cadets to try to gain a hold on the chieftainship. It's pathetic, it's sickening and I'm really getting tired of seeing here with nearly every Highland Clan. Refer to Mr. Skene if you want the real truth to the origins of the Highland and not the B.S. being posted here on wikipedia, once again, overwhelmingly by ONE poster (Personal attack removed). Shame on wikipedia and those in some position of authority for allowing this to happen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.32.225 (talk) 00:04, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

Cut it out with the personal attacks. The article makes no mention the Normans. In fact, I think it should note the possible Flemish origin of the clan. Here's a quote from Bruce McAndrew's Scotland's Historic Heraldry, previewable on GoogleBooks, pages 492-493: "Moncreiffe has suggested that the Cameron bars are the Fife pallets turned on their side and consequently has placed the Camerons among the Fife affiliates such as Abernathy and Wemyss. However, the original form of the name, Cambrun, possibly links with a Flemish family of the same name. Popoff has documented the appearance and diffusion of armoury in the country of Ponthieu in the period 1100-1270: in 1219 Walen de Cambrun's seal is an 'ecu fascé de six pieces' and in 1233 Jean de Cambrun's seal displays Three bars. They appear in later continental amorials as Fascé or gueules (UR1376, SIC262, LB226). The proximity of Cambrun to the original home of the de Quincy family at Cuinchy in Flanders provides a measure of confidence in this assignment, especially when it is remembered that the de Quincy caput at Leuchars is not far from Cameron in Fife". Beryl Platts is someone else who has worked on the Flemish origin of Scottish families. I think that she might have covered the evidence for the Camerons as well. Maybe you'd like to try an get some of her books out of the library.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:17, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

I also turned up this on GoogleBooks. G.W.S. Barrow's Scotland and its Neighbours in the Middle Ages, page 108 (footnote 15): "Mr David Sellar allows me to say that he is not convinced of the link between the east-country Camerons, who seem to have taken their surname from the lands of Cameron (Cambrun) in Markinch, Fife, and the Clan Cameron of Lochaber". Previous to this footnote, Barrow was describing what he considered to be the westward drive of the Camerons into the Highlands to Lochaber. I guess Sellar thinks that the Lochaber Camerons (aka Clan Cameron) are different than the eastern Camerons (the ones from Fife, which Moncreiffe thought were connected to the Earls of Fife, and which others above think have Flemish origins).--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:47, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

In regards to the IP user's comments. The Clan Cameron article does not have any mention of the chief's being of Norman origin so I do not know what he is talking about. In fact the article gives several possible origins which is good. As for Skene's 19th century work, it is sourced from MS 1467 which is in no way an authoritative source, and I do not know what makes the IP user think it is. However Skene's theory could be added to the article as another possibility. The IP user seems so concerned yet declines to add information that is properly sourced. I have also noticed that he wants to add his personal opinion to articles which isn't allowed either. The IP user, in his opinions, refers to Normans as sickening and scum, here and on the talk page of the Clan Davidson - which he was blocked for some time for vandalism and being abusive.QuintusPetillius (talk) 16:14, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

To categorize the ethnicity of clans by their chiefs’ paternal descent is a seriously flawed approach from the get-go. There are numerous instances in which Norman knights, brought in by David I (if I remember my history) and his successors, to enforce royal authority and keep the support of the English, solidified their tenure by marrying into the principal Celtic families in their territory. (Some of whom may still have been matrilineal, or with a tanistry procedure that legitimized the overlord per local traditions.) Within a few generations the Norman ‘strain’ would be greatly diluted, and confined mainly to the chief/baron’s household. By now it is absurd to suggest the Comyns, Sinclairs, _et al_ are any more Norman or less Celtic (the Gael/Pict question is obscure and best not entered into here) than any other descendants of Highland clans. Even those chiefs with ‘foreign’ Y-chromosomes and surnames are bearing mere traces of a drop in a Scottish ocean (already a mixture of several ‘strains’).

And there are several cases where two or more unrelated clans ended up with the same common surname, so conflicting origin-stories needn’t be mutually exclusive—Odysseus1479 05:33, 27 May 2013 (UTC)

The IP has been given a second break from editing Wikipedia. He would be welcome to write rationally and constructively upon his return; but if he instead continues as before, please just post an alert at "WP:AN/I". -- Hoary (talk) 00:23, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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"Romanticized" picture

The "IP" editor appears to have a problem accepting that the picture in question is of the Scottish Romanticism type. The image caption only currently links to the romanticism page so maybe it could be changed to Scottish Romanticism. The artist who painted the picture is R. R. McIan who is well known for his work in the typical 19th century Scottish Romanticism style. The IP editor seems to be questioning why these paintings of Scottish Highlanders are thought of as being romanticism and the answer is they were part of the art and culture movement of the time, not just in Scotland but across Europe. The various Wikipedia articles appear to have consistency and consensus of these facts. So I don't see how there is any disputing it.QuintusPetillius (talk) 21:06, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Identification of Erracht as "senior cadets"

I note that the "clan branches" list identifies Erracht as the "senior cadets" of the Clan. Most genealogies and historical sources I am aware of (e.g.Mackenzie 1884, p381 ) note that the Camerons of Callart/Lundavra were the first to branch from the main line and therefore had seniority in the traditional sense. Perhaps "senior" here reflects some sense of (modern) notability or recognition by the Chief, but if so it would be helpful if a source for this assertion could be cited. 122.58.94.42 (talk) 11:59, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Hi, page 381 does indeed say that so I have adjusted the article accordingly. Maybe one day we have an article for the Cameron of Callart branch. Cheers.QuintusPetillius (talk) 17:43, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for following up so quickly. The branch was hit hard in the '45 and its aftermath, and so while there is no shortage of oral tradition and interested descendants, contemporary records are (as Mackenzie notes) at best fragmentary especially in the 1640-1720 period. But yes, it would be good to piece together what we can.122.58.94.42 (talk) 11:20, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

References