Talk:Claus von Stauffenberg/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Talk 2003-2006

"...leading figures of anti-Nazi resistance movements during the WW II. "
This is a misleading statement. Stauffenberg was never inside a "movement", especially not in a dedicated anti-Nazi movement. He took part in a plot against Hitler, at a time when it was obvious that Germany will lose the war.
--zeno 04:33 Jan 13, 2003 (UTC)

Another historical error: many of the conspirators were actually killed slowly--according to some accounts, hanged with piano wire. Some accounts, which are a little difficult to corroborate, describe Hitler watching films of the executions repeatedly. Furthermore, Rommel, who was implicated in the plot, was allowed to commit suicide. What is teh source of them all being shot immediately (though many indeed were). Danny

The four "main" conspirators (Stauffenberg Olbricht von Haeften and von Quirnheim) were shot immediately, the article is correct. Source for me is documentation I saw yesterday ;)
In the days after that, almost 200 conspirators were executed in Berlin-Plötzensee
Pacifier

Any idea how Hitler escaped the assassination attempt ? Jay 10:14, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

According to the History Channel, the bomb was under an enormously thick oak table, that was just strong enough to deflect the blast. Hitler survived just by chance, while others around him were killed. I'm unsure how many others survived... (Someone please correct this if you know the details.)
--AmoebaMan 17:33 Jul 20, 2004 (UTC)
The bomb was at 1st just under hitlers feet but was moved by one of the other generals to another side of the table, the table leg did deflect some of the blast but there is also other factors to consider. At the time of the explosion hitler stood up a few seconds before to look at an area of a map one of his generals was pointing out. If hitler had remained seated he would've been killed. Also the meeting usually took place in a bunker which it didnt on this day, if it had everyone in the room would've died instantly, but on this day it took place in a house with open windows which allowed some of the force to escape the room. Also some more info the plan was to set off two bombs but only one was armed in time and stupidly not put back in the briefcase with the armed one, if it had been hitler would've been killed!!!!

Does anyone know what happened to Stauffenberg's wife and children??

Nina Countess Schenk von Stauffenberg died on April 2nd 2006, aged 92. She is survived by four of her five children. Her eldest son, Berthold, once held the rank of General in the Bundeswehr. Detmold 17.04.2006 01:20


Cassandra - 27/10/04 - 23.09 GMT

Read "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" by William Shirer. He explains the plot and the assassination attempt in detail in that book.
see July 20 Plot. --High on a tree 23:33, 20 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I removed the link to Berthold in the "Family" section because it links to a Wikipedia biography about Claus von Stauffenberg's brother, who was also named Berthold. The section in question refers to Berthold as the SON of Claus von Stauffenberg. It was all a simple name mix-up, in other words. --Cormac Canales 04:39, 27 Oct 2004 (UTC)

CGSvS was born in Jettingen castle (now Jettingen-Scheppach), Guenzburg district, Kingdom of Bavaria then and State of Bavaria now - Best regards, WernerE (german-wiki) 16.2.05


Views

I think von Stauffenberg's views (except for his obvious opposition to Hitler) need to be mentioned in the article. I don't know too much about it except for the fact that he was an anti-Semite.--Carabinieri 14:17, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

I have read many books on Von Stauffenberg & I have never read naything about him being an anti-semite ("""")

Me neither (Khan 22:13, 2 November 2005 (UTC))

Yes Stauffenberg was a an-semite and racists. http://www.ess.uwe.ac.uk/genocide/reviewstr12.htm Housden pulls no punches when he points to Stauffenberg's view of Poles as "an unbelievable rabble," their country occupied by "a lot of Jews and a lot of cross-breeds" (p. 100). Similarly, Housden shows how General Beck's opposition to Hitler resulted from a disagreement over Hitler's tactics in annexing the Sudetenland, not Hitler's goals. Moltke is really the only one among the July 1944 conspirators to appear unambiguously opposed to Nazism on ideological grounds.

He also believed that Poles are slaves, that feel at best under the whip, I will add in time this information. --Molobo 12:45, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

See also Daniel Goldhagen: Hitler's Willing Executioners (pg. 146 in the German translation; i don't know what page in the English version). There is a quotation by Berthold von Stauffenberg, Claus's brother, who collaborated with him. Here is a rough translation: "We agreed to the basic ideas of the National Socialists concerning inner policy...The racialist idea...appeared healthy and promising to us."--Carabinieri 14:12, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

Whilst Stauffenberg may have had good intentions in trying to end the life of Adolf Hitler, for the benefit of Germany and (possibly) bring an end to the war, his method was disgusting. Why didn't this man, who had access to Hitler, draw his pistol and shoot him point blank. Instead, he chooses to plant a bomb. No guarantees that it will hit his target, no guarantees that it will even detonate. Now you can turn this method of murder upside down and sideways but it's still the act of a terrorist. He not only failed in killing Hitler, he murdered four innocent men, including a stenographer. He had no quarrel with those men but chose to take their lives anyway. A terrorist tried to blow up the British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher in 1984, failed, killed two innocent people and he's a monster. Stauffenberg does the same act, trying to murder the head of state, failed, killed four other men in the process and he's a hero. Sorry, I don't quite see the reasoning behind that. You choose to plant a bomb, for whatever cause and there will be a fair chance that you will murder innocent people who just happen to be standing by. It's terrorism, period. It's cowardly, period. He had access to Hitler, should have shot him and taken the consequences alone. End of story. Detmold 17 April 2006 01:49

I've only ever fired a pistol in my right hand (I'm right-handed) and then it was a modern fire-arm. I don't know whether Stauffenberg was right-handed or not but if so firing a pistol with only three fingers remaining on your off-hand would be a difficult task at best. --Brother William 04:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

-Why didn't he shoot him? Because killing Hitler would have meant Goring taking over and nothing changing. The conspirators needed to seize control of the entire government, not just kill Hitler. As the article says, Stauffenberg was on the phone to various units ordering them to arrest political officers. None of the other conspirators were willing to step up and be the one to start ordering the military to take control and de-nazify the government. So, in a nutshell, Stauffenberg was too important to the coup to get shot immediately for killing Hitler. Rob 16:20, 3 May 2006 (UTC)

I've extensively researched Claus Stauffenberg and I would suggest the definitive biography by Hoffman, Stauffenberg: A Family History. Contrary to what others posting here say - Stauffenberg was not known as a racist or anti-Semite. Many of his friends growing up were Jewish; during his time in Stefan George's Circle, he spent time with members of that circle, who were Jewish. And his sister in law, Melitta Schiller, came from a Jewish background. In Poland, where he served, a fellow officer executed two young women, claiming that they were trying to "signal." Turns out they were simple minded and scared, using torches to get around. Stauffenberg, disgusted by the act, immediately ordered a court martial for the officer in question. As well, Stauffenberg, as a young officer, was required to attend a lecture by a well-known publisher who was an anti-Semite. When the speaker got into a pornographic rant about Jews, Stauffenberg got up from his seat and walked out in disgust. He was horrified at the carnage of Kristallnacht and started initiating thoughts of conspiracy and assassination as far back as 1938. As a German nationalist he initially supported Hitler but was quickly disgusted by him, the SA and the SS in particular. In 1942 he found out about the Final Solution and cried out, "They're murdering Jews in the thousands! This must stop!" Stauffenberg was never a member of the Nazi Party; he kept bringing his concerns to others for years but wasn't successful. He even approached Erich von Manstein, but the latter threatened to have Stauffenberg arrested. I recently contacted an Israeli Jewish friend - he says Stauffenberg is well respected in Israel and there are even streets named after him there. I feel that the fiery and "strikingly handsome" (in William Shirer's words; Claus was a real looker and noted for it by his peers) young officer is certainly deserving of status as a German hero. He wasn't perfect, neither are the rest of us. He entertained views earlier in his life that I don't support, but changed them, influenced by his faith, mysticism and a desire to eliminate the dictator.

Terrorism? Good grief. I hardly think trying to kill one of history's greatest despots and mass murderers counts as terrorism, regardless of what method you employ. There are several logistical reasons why trying to shoot Hitler was not a good idea, however. First, have you actually read the entire article? Stauffenberg had only one hand, and a maimed hand with a thumb and two fingers remaining at that. He had difficulty buttoning a shirt, let along holding and firing a pistol with any accuracy. Second, sidearms were not allowed at Fuher conferences and had not been for some time before the July 20 plot. In addition to the great difficulty of simply holding a pistol, Stauffenberg would have had to have secreted it to get it into the room and then retrieved it quickly and smoothly enough to get a shot off before others stopped him (and remember, there were armed guards in the room. Extremely unlikely. Third, gunshots are an unreliable means of assasination. For every Kennedy or Lincoln there's a Reagan or Ford. You may shoot your intended target, but there's no gurantee the wound will be fatal. The bomb was intended to obliterate the room and kill almost everyone in it to make absolutely sure Hitler was dead. That this failed was due to a tragic series of coincidences; but it still probably had a better chance at success than trying to shoot Hitler during a conference. 169.253.4.21 13:57, 24 October 2007 (UTC)Texxasfinn

I also find it strange no-one has pointed out to Detmold that Thatcher wasn't killing millions of Jews. One could argue that killing one or two 'innocent' (I'm not convinced aiding Hitler in any capacity should be counted as 'innocent') people is an allowable price to pay for saving millions upon millions of people from excruciating death. But what this has to do with anything is anyone's guess--this is an encyclopedia article, not a moral treatise. 203.45.146.36 (talk) 10:37, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Execution Method

Yesterday I watched a video which said the conspriators were executed by 'being hung by the ribs on meat hooks'. But they were actually shot? Does anyone know for sure? I'd say there is quite a difference. ((shiver))

The ones rounded up immediately afterwards, including Stauffenberg, were shot, and later on the rest who were involved were arrested and placed on trial, after which they were hanged from meat hooks.

- To be precise: Stauffenberg, General Olbricht, Oberst Merz von Quirnheim and Oberleutnant von Haeften were shot emediately (perhaps to prevent them from telling anyone about Generaloberst Fromm's knowledge of the plot), Generaloberst Beck was allowed to shoot himself (and didn't succeed), Generaloberst Hoeppner was arrested and transfered to Plötzensee prison. He was one of the first to be condemned to death by the infamous Volksgerichtshof--Vully 22:09, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

- By the way: As source you just have to visit the "Bendler-Block" where a bronze plate tells about the killings there--Vully 22:24, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Wiederstand

Saying this was a soley conservative movement is highly inaccurate. -- max rspct 11.54 am GMT 03 april 2006

With all due respect: It is “Widerstand”. A word like Wiederstand does not exist German language.

To clear the main objective, have a look at German Resistance --Dionysos 19:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Many of the conspirators were hanged by a hemp rope, not piano wire.But unlike with traditional hanging methods by gallows where the drop usually breaks the neck resulting in a quick death (we hope!) Stauffenberg's comrades dangled from the meat hooks. Brother Berthold would have taken at least 20 minutes to die by strangulation. Claus was "fortunate" in that he was dispatched relatively quickly. An interesting fictional description of the executions is in Paul West's wonderful "The Very Rich Hours of Count von Stauffenberg," where the tale is narrated in first person by the ghost of the young count who watches helplessly and sees that he has inadvertently condemned his brother and colleagues to gruesome deaths. - kyrie

Title

This article should be titled Claus Graf von Stauffenberg to be in conformity with other articles about German nobility. Adam 11:33, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure we have any kind of general policy on German nobility naming. See Otto von Bismarck, for instance. We ought to be clear on what the general policy is before we go moving around articles - especially if, as in this case, we'd be moving them to a less familiar version. Also, to be pedantic, wouldn't it technically be Claus Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg? john k 14:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

  • I think Bismarck is wrong too. It should presumably be Otto Furst von Bismarck. We lots of articles with "Graf" and "Freiherr" etc in the titles. I agree we should do one thing or the other consistently.
  • I have always assumed that Schenk was a given name. Was his surname actually Schenk von Stauffenberg? Adam 16:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Otto Fürst von Bismarck, surely? But does that mean Metternich has to be at Klemens Fürst von Metternich-Winneburg? This seems to get us further from Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), at least in some cases. It would, of course, be simpler to do it this way, but perhaps it would be better to take this up over at the useless mess that nobody will ever respond to that is Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (names and titles). john k 17:14, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

OK I will leave the larger question to you - I tend to lose patience with that kind of meta-debate. Specifically on Stauffenberg, we now seem to have three possibilities:

  • That his surname was von Stauffenberg, his given names were Claus Schenk and his title was Graf.
  • That his surname was Schenk von Stauffenberg, his given name was Claus and his title was Graf.
  • That his surname was von Stauffenberg, his given name was Claus and his title was Graf Schenk.

Can anyone give a firm answer (not more speculation) on which was the case? Adam 01:09, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

His surname was Schenk von Stauffenberg. His forenames were Claus Philipp Maria. His name would ordinarily be given as Claus Philipp Maria Schenck Graf von Stauffenberg. He'd be alphabetized under "Schenk v. Stauffenberg" (and so would the other members of his family). See the Genealogisches Handbuch des Adels: Gräfliche Häuser A Band II, von Ehrenkrook, Hans Friedrich, C. A. Starke Verlag, Glücksburg/Ostsee, 1955, Band II. - Nunh-huh 02:14, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for that.
Titles tend to be appended onto surnames and become part of the surname, which seems to be what happened here. And when English speakers pick them up, the tendency is to hang on only to part of it. (I think he's best known as Claus von Stauffenberg in English). Of course, since Germany outlawed titles in 1919, and they became part of the surname, you could equally well say his surname was "Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg" and he had no title. - Nunh-huh 03:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Interesting, but the article should be named for the full name that the subject is known for. Stauffenberg is an known for much more than his german nobility. Check Prince Peter Kropotkin. -- max rspct leave a message 02:00, 7 June 2006

2 cents/euros/etc: My impression of the consensus over this kind of issue is to keep the article title in the "straightforward" form (which I believe for (von) Stauffenberg is as at present) and roll out the full works within the first one or two sentences of the article. Cf Wernher von Braun for another example. Regards, David Kernow 02:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Schenk is a title, not part of the name (von Stauffenberg). dewiki uses "Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg", since that is apparently most common in German academic literature. One possible reason might be that "Schenk" (Cupbearer) is a lower title than "Graf" (Count). Kusma (討論) 02:26, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Nunh-huh: Yes, I understand how the title/name Graf works in German names. The issue is the status of Schenk - is it a name or a title? Adam 03:46, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

It's a name. If it originated as a title (and it seems it did), it's no less a name now. Just like in "Opie Tailor", "tailor" no longer indicates a profession, but a name. As far as I know, Schenk has not been used as a title since the Middle Ages. It's certainly treated as part of the surname in the GHdA. There's no ambiguity there: they put surnames in bold, and titles in plain text, and it's Schenk Gf v. Stauffenberg, C l a u s Philipp Maria. (The letter spacing, or sperren, of "C l a u s" indicating it's the name he went by.) - Nunh-huh 04:00, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

OK. It seems therefore than in post-1918 times the family's surname has been Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg, with the old noble titles Schenk and Graf incorporated into the name. Our hero's name is therefore Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg, and that is what the article should be called, with all the other variants as redirects. Can anyone fault this logic? Adam 04:15, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

I suppose that seems right. We're sure it's "Schenk Graf" and not "Graf Schenk"? john k 10:28, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg gets 41,400 googles (including de.wikipedia), Claus Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg gets 23,100 (inluding Britannica). Take your pick. Adam 11:03, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, Nunh-huh has access to the GHdA, which apparently has "Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg," so I suppose we should stick with that. john k 12:06, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

So, alle stimmen wir zu. Adam 12:33, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Since appear to have consensus, can someone move the article to Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg? Adam 01:54, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Done, now fixing all those double redirects. Kusma (討論) 02:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Done. His redirects include Stauffenberg, which perhaps should be a dab page rather than a redirect? Kusma (討論) 02:32, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there is a whole family of them. His widow, who died this year, merits an article in her own right, and his son was also a general. Adam 03:03, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

According to de:Stauffenberg, which also clears up the "Schenk" question (it calls it a title that was turned into a name in 1918), there are also some older Stauffenbergs that could have articles. Probably worth translating... Kusma (討論) 03:47, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I have done a Stauffenberg dab page. Adam 05:04, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! I have moved the other two Stauffenbergs. Note that we also have a Category:Stauffenberg. Kusma (討論) 15:46, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

I think Berthold Jr should have his own article. Also, the category seems pretty redundant to me. Adam 15:49, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

To come back to the name problem: Look up the german atricle about the family, where you can learn that the family's name used to be only "von Stauffenberg" before the title "Schenk" was added. Later a branch of the family got the additional title of "Graf" (count), another that of "Freiherr" (Baron). So correctly the "Graf" should stand before the "Schenk" - "Claus Graf Schenk von Stauffenberg". By the way: Since the end of World War I all former german titles have become parts of the surname. --Vully 22:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Short addition: The family members themselves pronounce their surname "Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg" - so that's it.--Vully 09:54, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Stupid move

Why change the name of the article.. Probably because there are wikipedians obsessed with titles of nobility, This is not a who's who.. Claus is usually known by the original name of the article. -- max rspct leave a message 16:26, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

The article isn't exactly neutral

While it reflects the rather average view of him in public, historians have researched this person more in detail, he wasn't a saint and had both anti-polish and anti-semitic beliefs which he expressed. He was more a old-Guard German nationalist that didn't like the new breed of politics introduced by Hitler then fighter for democracy. This can be sourced quite easly by various historic research. --Molobo 18:28, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Well go and do that then. Put your suggestions on this page. -- max rspct leave a message 19:24, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Ah, Molobo, virtually everyone those days had some anti-this or anti-that beliefs. That's not relevant at all. Additionally, I don't see what could be wrong about being a German nationalist. 217.85.110.56 20:42, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
All nazis were german nationalists. And german nationalism lead the world in two world wars. Theres everything wrong with german nationalists. believe me, I'm german.

88.68.220.228 (talk) 04:36, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

No, you're wrong...NOT virtually everybody in these days had anti-this or anti-that beliefs in germany...there were for example the group "weiße rose"(white rose). They were resistance fighters fighting hitler for the sake of democracy and because they were against anti-semitism, which is historically proven. So if you compare them to von Stauffenberg you will see that there is a whole different quality. Therefor,I agree with Molobo, reading this article one might be mislead to think that von Stauffenberg was a hero, but he served under hitler for many years and therefor witnessed, maybe participated but at least agreed silently with too many cruel acts of unhumanity to deserve to be portrayed like a hero.

The "White Rose" are to be commended for their non-violent approach. But this was a group of six people, and you using it as an example sort of confirms the statement of the fellow you're replying to: back then anti-this or anti-that views were exceedingly common, and anti-semitism and anti-bolsjevism especially. Even if someone didn't like the Jews or the Polish (or whomever) however, that is NOT the same as to say they condoned poor treatment of them. I don't like religious/ideological fanatics, but that doesn't mean I wish them harm, and I would be opposed to maltreatment of them. Tsuka 16:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

No this is higly incorrect as well. Most of those accusations towards Stauffenberg were mainly politically motivated to deny ( or to discredit ) the existence of a sincere "conservative opposition" and to strength the historical role of the communist ( and certain ethnical ) resistance. A very common political strategy in the times of the cold war. --82.83.143.167 04:06, 6 October 2007 (UTC)

To 217.85.110.56 and Tsuka:
1) I don't see how everybody being anti-something would mean that Stauffenberg's anit-semetism (et al) is irrelevant. It's still a fact about him; he was still anti-semetic, right? And as for what's wrong with being a German nationalist, why would anything need to be wrong with it? This is meant to be an encyclopedia page that is neutral on points of view. If he was a German nationalist, then saying there was nothing wrong with German nationalism shows in no way whatsoever that his German nationalism shouldn't be reported.
2) Molobo never suggested that Stuaffenberg wanted to harm or maltreat the Jews or the Polish. Why do you think Molobo was suggesting otherwise? It is because it is you who in fact equate anti-semetism with wanting to harm a semite? 203.45.146.36 (talk) 02:57, 9 August 2010 (UTC)
Did you actually read what I wrote? What do you think this sentence means: "Even if someone didn't like the Jews or the Polish (or whomever) however, that is NOT the same as to say they condoned poor treatment of them." --Tsuka (talk) 01:08, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
As a matter of fact the White Rose was decidedly (!) not democratical: "We do not want to judge on the different forms of government possible: democracy, constitutional monarchy, royalty etc. One thing only needs to be exalted in clearness and without need of interpretation: each single man [Mensch, i. e. incl. woman. In my view "human being" does not fit into the somewhat poetic language they used] has the right to claim a state that is useful and just, a state that ensures freedom of the individual as well as the welfare of the whole." Third Leaflet.
Stauffenberg's political views on the other hand are described thus by his own words: "We confess in spirit and in deed to the great traditions of our People, who by melting Hellenic and Christian roots into the Germanic being created the mankind ("Menschentum") of the occident. We want a New Order that makes all Germans upholders ("Träger") of the state and ensures to them order or right; ("Recht") and justice, but we despise the lie of equality and call for the acknowledgement of the distinct ranks as given by Nature. We want a People that, rooted in the soul of our homeland ("Heimat") remains close to the natural Powers, seeks its happiness and satisfaction in operating within the given circles of life, and overcomes in proud freedom ("freiem Stolze"; "free pride" somewhat doesn't fit the rhythm) the inferior instincts of envy and misgiving."
I don't know whether Stauffenberg was decided in such practical questions such as, whether the Crown Prince was to be put into power after a successful putsch, or the like. The plot was an anti-Hitler conspiration; it would have gained even wider support within the generality if some generals had not taken primarily into custody what they judged best for the state under the given circumstances (according to their view, a defeat made things worse and replacing Hitler meant defeat - for psychological reasons of course, not because of his military abilities which they knew to be not the greatest - and the Western Allied would not be willing to grant an honorful defeat and peace, which it is a pity that it is not improbable.), while Stauffenberg said that even without chance of success, and at least some chance he did have, there had to be action on account of the simple malice of Nazidom. The putsch was anti-Hitler and in so far, such easy a thing as anti-evil; there is however an opinion which equals good and democratic, and that's the whole problem of the issue. Even if we state that democracy be the least bad government existing, we must under any circumstances honor the man (if there are reasons to honor him) who in good conscience and free judgment has taken another opinion on the matter, and that's the problem with statements "Stauffenberg was not a democrat" because, though true (to an extent; stating that all people are to be upholders of the state is democratic in essence, but it is admittedly not the only thing Stauffenberg said about the state), they are practically always meant in the way of criticism for which there is no reason.--84.154.105.177 (talk) 11:18, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
The problem with stating that he was a German nationalist is a problem with contemporary German language usage. Since Germans despise nationalism for obvious reasons, much stress in Germany is put on the distinction between nationalism and patriotism. Thus, a feeling of this kind will be called nationalism if it is bad in some respect, and it will possibly be called nationalism even if it doesn't include bad intentions, in case the multitude believes it to be exaggerated according to their measure of what is exaggerated. Patriotism is the rest. Hence the problem with calling him nationalist; that he was either nationalist or a patriot is most clear. --84.154.105.177 (talk) 14:12, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
  • Stauffenberg was not a saint but he did not support what was transpiring at the time. He was also, by whatever anyone else wants to call it (or not), anti-Semitic, anti-Polish, and anti-anyone that did not fit his ideas. He was not for democracy but he believed the direction Germany was being led was detrimental. I am certainly not a fan of Nazi Germany but what he did, for whatever reasons, was to take a stand and try to rid the world (not just Germany) of someone considered evil to many. He reasoning might very well be strange to us today but the facts are history. He was recruited into an organization that was formed early in the Hitler era. Too little or too late would be an unimaginable statement. Did it atone for what happened? Of course not. He was shot for what he did. Well he was shot as a cover up but he would have been shot or hanged or would have met his demise in some fashion anyway. He was trying to do something to salvage what he could of Germany.
A web search of German nationalism (nationalist) brings up over 100,000 (yes many are probably ads for underwear) results. Whatever one person or group may call it he was still loyal to the "old" Germany and the word does exist. Was he a hero? In my opinion the answer is no. Did he attempt a heroic deed? Yes he did even if his motives were questionable. This is my POV but there is history to back much of it. All the "quotes" given above should have been cited for possible inclusion in the article or at least so others could "check it out". Otr500 (talk) 02:56, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure why he shouldn't be called a hero, given that he did (not just attempted) an (unsuccessful) heroic deed. In which far his motives to this deed, i. e. the assassination of Hitler, were questionable, I don't know either. He wanted to free his Fatherland at war from the military commandment of a private first class without prudence for his job, out of patriotism? That is a valuable and honorful motive in itself (though in my opinion it wouldn't itself justify tyrannicide from a moral point of view), and it is unjust that he is accused of it; something to accuse him of, separately, would be that he at the same time had neglected the crimes and malice of Nazidom, but as a matter of fact, he didn't, but according to all sources, these were a decisive point throughout the conservative resistance. Was he anti-Semite and anti-Polish? In a certain sense, it seems so; but I think though we justly despise all kinds of antisemitism, we owe to the deceased persons whenever we feel forced to judge them morally, that we distinguish between an antisemitism that was murderous and self-acclaimedly scientific and an antisemitism that was but a form of the unfortunately quite widespread epidemy of xenophoby (including the very perception of Jews as foreigners, of course). Was he an anti-Polish racist? Possibly, but we likewise must differ between a racist who but believes his race be superior, and a racist who believes that his race must struggle for power by exterminating the others. It is a big mistake to forget that the malice of Nazidom lies in the second point (and theoretically, even someone could take this view who himself holds his own race to be inferior), while the first is scientific error. [And a somewhat middle thing, i. e. a racist who wants to enslave other peoples for the misconception - and this misconception I cannot imagine without guilt, too much has it all appearances of a self-serving declaration - that the peoples want so. Which Stauffenberg can be accused of, but:] Did any of these motives motivate the assassination itself? No. Was he a democrat? Simplifyingly speaking, no, but who are we to decree that only democrats may be heroic? There are aspects of his life, and attitudes he held but apparently not at the moment of his death which we not only disagree, but have to despise as morally bad? All right, but to pass to some quite higher examples of heroism, Paul of Tarsus is honoured as a Saint notwithstanding the fact that some time he even tried to exterminate the very body that honours him now.
The first quote is the Third Leaflet of the White Rose. The second quote is translated from the German wikipedia, which itself cites 17.↑ Eberhard Zeller: Geist der Freiheit. Der 20. Juli. München 1963, S. 489 f. --84.154.81.1 (talk) 09:53, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Facts need to be checked

A few facts would need a checkup.

  • To my knowledge (and I am german), his common name is Claus Schenk, and Graf von Stauffenberg would be his noble title. In germany, nobles bear a common name consisting of given and family name, and a title, which often is "Graf von", "von", "von und zu" and some others, in combination with the name of a place. So that'd make him Claus Schenk, the Graf von (Count of) Stauffenberg. I do not know about a noble title "Schenk".
  • AFAIR, one of his arms was crippled, a war injury, which contributed to him not being able to arm both bombs.
  • He's not exactly regarded a national hero. He's a symbol of the resistance, but his moral is dubious, as mentioned further down on the page. It is true that there are some streets named after him, and his story is part of the folklore/myth surrounding WW2, but the truth is that he was far too late, even if he'd been effective. He proved loyal to humanity, though, and thus is regarded as somewhat rehabilitated from being a Nazi. The people regarded heroes (or, at least, better symbols of the little resistance that was) like the "Weiße Rose" or the "Edelweißpiraten" had much sadder stories.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.174.16.72 (talkcontribs) 22:16, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
For the name stuff, see de:Schenk (Adelstitel) and de:Stauffenberg and the talk page of the German article. Kusma (討論) 22:45, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

In reply:

  • The photo of Stauffenberg on page 251 of Fest clearly shows that he had two arms. Fest says (215) that he lost his right hand and the 3rd and 4th fingers of his left hand. The timer of the fuse was designed so that he could trigger it with the remaining fingers of his left hand.
  • Stauffenberg and Haeften took two bombs to Rastenburg. While they were in Keitel's rooms before the conference, they set the fuse to one of them, but they were interrupted by a phone call before they could set the fuse for the second bomb. It is not known for certain that they intended to take both bombs into the conference - the second bomb may have been a reserve. Since Both Stauffenberg and Haeften were shot the next day this can never be known (Fest 255-56).
  • I agree that the statement that "Stauffenberg is a national hero" is much too simple. Up until the 1970s, when the wartime generation was still in charge, and when, particularly, most serving Bundeswehr officers were World War II veterans, this was not the case. Many regarded the July 20 plotters as traitors, even if they acknowledged that the Nazi regime was evil and that it was just as well that Germany lost the war. There was very little public memorialising of the plotters. It is only over the last 25 years, as the wartime generation has faded away,, that the view of them as heroes as been generally and officially promoted - but I am sceptical that the majority of Germans really believe this. People in the former DDR, for one thing, were taught at school that the KPD were the only real resistance and that the July 20 plotters were a clique of disgruntled aristocrats. There is just enough truth in this for this view to have persisted. Adam 02:56, 9 June 2006 (UTC)


In reply to the reply:

It is known that things taught in history classes of the German Democratic Republic were not famous for being necessarily always true. There is only little truth in the claim the german comunist party ( KPD ) to have been the only real resistance group against Hitler. Between the date of the signatures of the Hitler-Stalin treaties and the agression of Germany against Russia in June 1941 for example the KPD refrained from any resistance against the Nazis. The resistance of the KPD was later organised from Moscow and coming from outside Germany and only scarcely and exceptionally from within Germany ("Rote Kapelle"). "The clique of disgruntled aristocrats" is probably not true, but corresponds to the wording , that Adolf Hitler had used on the evening of the failed plot.

It was always uncomfortable for the vast majority of Germans to accept Claus von Stauffenberg and the plotters. The war generation of Nazi followers were reminded, to what they should have done, but not even tried to do. And the next generation, after 68 in their majority left wingers were reminded that a group of aristocrates and not members of the working class had tried to remove Hitler.

The second postwar generation, the sons and daughters of the Obersturmbannfuehrers, tried to play down Stauffenberg´s importance, arguing he had acted too late and only in order to save the privileges of his class. They tried to upgrade the "Weisse Rose" and the events in the Buergerbraeukeller in Munich 1938 instead as the genuinely democratic acts of resistance.

Last but not least the people in the former GDR had wrongly learned at school, that the real resistance against the Nazis came exclusively from the KPD.

So the majority of every now grown up German has been confronted for different reasons with twisted versions of perfectly known historic truth about Stauffenberg´. Schenk 20:20, 5 August 2007

GA Nom Failed

Interesting article! Enjoyed it!

  • I'd try and expand your lead to at least two paragraphs if you can (WP:LEAD)
  • Also it needs inline citations
  • Do we know why "one of eight conspirators executed by strangulation" happened as opposed to the firing squad? Intriguing difference....

plange 05:37, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, Stauffenberg-signature-head.jpg needs a more appropriate tag and source for where it came from. plange 05:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Since none of the above were addressed in the 7 day window, I've moved this from being on hold to failed. Once these have been addressed, please re-nominate! plange 20:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC) Claus is a given name. Schenk is a regular surname. If he was to drop his title he would have been simply a Claus Schenk, pretty much like Di would have been a Diana Spencer. Graf von Stauffenberg (meaning Count of Stauffenberg) is the inherited title that indicates the hierarchical rank within aristocracy (Count vs. Earl, Prince or Duke, for example) and von Stauffenberg stands for the aristocratic house that he came from. This is comparable to a Diana Spencer, Princess of Wales. Alone "von" (the equivalent of the English "of" in an aristocratic title)is already a noble title, but of the lowest aristocratic category. Terms like Graf, Herzog, Prinz, or Koenig in fron of "von" indicate higher aritocratic levels.

No, Schenk is not a regular surname. The only way German aristocrats can have regular surnames together with noble ones is by double-naming resulting from recent marriages. In this they differ from British aristocrats. There is indeed a Spencer Churchill, Earl of Marlborough, but to get to the same result with the Archduke Otto of Autria, we arrive in the nowhere. Otto von Habsburg? nonsense in this respect (though he is actually called so), because the whole von Habsburg means gefürsteter Graf von Habsburg. von Lothringen? means Herzog von Lothringen. Likewise there is no way leaving Bavaria out of Duke Francis of Bavaria's name, which is (with the replacement of "Duke" by "Prince") an official acknowledged name; Franz von Wittelsbach is sometimes used inofficially, but even von Wittelsbach means Graf von Wittelsbach. "Schenk" is no level of its own but indeed a function, namely the function of a cupbearer. The Schenken of Stauffenberg were some time exalted to the rank of counts, resulting in the double title Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg. --84.154.81.1 (talk) 15:23, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Berthold

The linkage of Berthold, son of Claus (last paragraph, implying the link leads to the wikipedia article of the son) actually links to the wikipedia article of Berthold (brother of Claus). Berthold (son) most probably is still living and a Bundeswehr "General a.D" (or was still living on 2006-11-26 according to [1]). Someone with a deeper understanding how to solve this should look into it. --84.168.3.99 00:13, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Fixed the old link, and expanded with this one, thanks! -- Matthead discuß!     O       07:25, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

It states in this article that Berthold, the son and his siblings were not told of their father's deed--according to a History News Network interview with Berthold, he and his brother were told of his father's actions--he expressed quite clearly how he felt and then tells what happened to he and his sibs after the assassination attempt-when I am not feeling so lazy, I'll spend some more time editing areas in this article that Berthold has spoken about in the interview--see link below-- as well as in other interviews that refute some of the things that were put into this article. Brattysoul (talk) 05:12, 26 December 2008 (UTC) http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/53530.html

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.


Claus Schenck Graf von Stauffenberg → Claus von Stauffenberg – This individual is most commonly known in English publications in the shortened form. His full name should remain in the article's introduction, of course. Olessi 21:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" or other opinion in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

Discussion

Add any additional comments

Google Books results. Olessi 21:26, 3 April 2007 (UTC)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Claus Schenk Graf von Stauffenberg to Claus von Stauffenberg as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 08:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

late vote

Legacy

The "Legacy" section should be renamed "Stauffenberg in the movies". A legacy section about a man like him should focus on the way he is viewed in modern history, by historians as well as the people. It should mention the vast number of streets, places and schools named vor Stauffenberg, not just list the number of films and TV episodes he was seen in. -- Imladros 11:57, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Execution / Last Words

In the article as of 15th September Stauffenberg's last words are described as being: "Es lebe unser heiliges Deutschland!" ("Long live our sacred Germany!")

I think that this could be wrong. I have just finished translating an interview with Christopher McQuarrie, the author of the script for the new Stauffenberg film "Valkyrie". The article was published in German in the serious German weekly magatine "Focus" (#37/2007, pp 78-82). In the interview, a change in Stauffenberg's last words is discussed:

FOCUS: Stauffenberg's last words were, in fact "For a secret Germany" and not as for a "holy" one as in your version. Is this because one wouldn't understand this without the background information about George?

McQuarrie: It could also have been a reverence to the conspirators. No, to be honest, we haven't yet decided between "holy", "sacred" and "secret" - we will carry on debating until the day we film it. But in the end, that's not existential.

("George" here refers to the poet Stefan George.) This discussion clearly contradicts the current version of this article - in fact, it is almost as if the current text is anticipating the film version.

Whilst the original interview almost certainly took place in English and therefore my translation is a transation of a translation of a translation, I cannot imagine that the terms could have been so altered from the originals so that the content of this part of the interview - which appears to have been well researched in advance - in its original version could back up the current Wikipedia version.

I hope that someone better informed than I am will look into this and provide backup evidence to clear up this question. I find it important that where the media starts to bend history, that the truth remain publicly available. If you want to see the relevant text from the Focus article, get in touch with me via the e-mail address in my profile.

A-Amos 19:23, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

I found, in the German page for Stauffenberg, that his last words were Es lebe das heilige Deutschland (Long live the sacred Germany), or Es lebe das geheime Deutschland (Long live the secret Germany), or Heiliges Deutschland (Sacred Germany), or Es lebe Deutschland (Long live Germany), or Es lebe unser heiliges Deutschland (Long live our sacred Germany). Moreover, I remember a movie (a cross between a movie and a documentarie) about the July 20 Plot, in which the last words told by Stauffenberg were Long live our sacred Germany (Que vive notre sainte Allemagne in French even if, of course, he didn't told it in this language but I need to tell you this documentarie was in French)!! hope it will help you! -- Thomas the french 18:47, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It is a bit difficult to translate Es lebe das heilige Deutschland correctly. It would be much more common in German to say "Lang lebe..." translating into "long live...". However the "long" part is just missing, which gives the thing a tiny differnet meaning. Pronouncing less the anticipation of a ever lasting empire and more a call for a continuation of the sacret tradtion (that he sees violated by Hitler). Dont know how to get that into english as the non-native speaker i am. Theo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.54.137.211 (talk) 13:09, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

"Es lebe unser heiliges Deutschland" literally means "Our sacred Germany, it lives." This implies the statement "I am going to die, but, our sacred Germany, it lives."Lestrade (talk) 02:25, 28 January 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

'It lives' is 'Es lebt'. "Es lebe", however, is the subjunctive, so should be translated as 'May it live'. 'Long live..' is a perfectly accurate translation of 'es lebe'. Vauxhall1964 (talk) 13:23, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Ungrammatical sentence

Could someone familiar with the subject correct the above in the article? I'm not familiar with the details of the 1944 negotiations with the conspirators, but shouldn't it be mentioned that such terms for an armistice as listed in this paragraph were unrealistic in the extreme? patsw 12:00, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Nationality

I think it is inappropriate to say that his nationality was Nazi Germany. For someone who tried to bring down the Nazi regime and who died to defend his country from the Nazi savages I think it is more appropriate to say that his nationality was simply Germany. It is disrespectful to put Nazi Germany as his nationality. It would be similar to putting Nazi Germany as the nationality for the German Jews who were killed by the Nazis. 70.23.214.116 (talk) 14:57, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree! Good suggestion! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dasilo31 (talkcontribs) 17:42, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Very true this should be changed. His nationality should list as just being 'German.' To get fancy with it (if someone wants to) you could even put that he is originally from a Bavarian Aristocratic family...so maybe putting 'German' next to nationality with maybe a flag of Bavaria may be appropriate.MikeDalbey (talk) 04:02, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Exact position

What was exact position of Stauffenberg regarding Jewish people ? Some information I stumbled upon suggests that while he opposed active harassment of Jewish people and mass murder he supported restricting their civil rights and segregation. --Molobo (talk) 12:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

German Cross

The article indicates that Stauffenberg was a recipient of the German Cross in Gold. Is this true? Could this be cited? I have never seen pictures of him wearing this award. MisterBee1966 (talk) 08:20, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

There is a book that lists all the German Cross in Gold recipients. Would be easy enough to verify.139.48.25.60 (talk) 16:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Ersatzheer

I edited the definition of Ersatzheer in the article, not because it was wrong, but because it was wrong for the period mentioned. The article wikipiped it to "home guard" While in 1945, members of the Replacement Army most certainly found themselves thrown into the battle for Germany, that was not their main intent. As their name implies, they were a force generation formation. They trained reinforcements for the standing divisions at the front. At the time Stauffenberg was assigned to this organization, that's what they did. Their use as a "home guard" was also intended during this period, but definitely not preferred, and not necessary at the time Stauffenberg was alive. It was simply not their primary function and never the way they were intended to operate. They provided trained soldiers, formed into March Companies, and sent them off to the field army. Linking the name to the Home Guard article gives a misconception of their true function. A minor point, but a valid one I think.139.48.25.60 (talk) 16:32, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Eye patch

With the Tom Cruise movie out now, I want to know if Stauffenberg really wore an eye patch or if it was added to his character for the movie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.74.22.158 (talk) 15:17, 24 December 2008 (UTC)


I just read an interview done by the son of Claus von Stauffenberg, and not only did he wear an eyepatch, but his father recovered from his wounds rather quickly and not slowly as this article states. The interviewer makes note of a picture of Stauffenberg that shows he is wearing an eye patch. You can read this at the below website, as well as Berthold's observations and experiences of his life after his father's attempt to assassinate Hitler Brattysoul (talk) 04:46, 26 December 2008 (UTC) http://hnn.us/roundup/entries/53530.html

Might want to edit-restrict this article now that the movie is out

Now that the movie is out and trolls abound, might want to keep a sharp eye on this article and lock it to block new and unregistered users. Plus, I posted the article link on IMDB (for someone who was wanting to know the true story). So if trolls read that post it may spark vandalism here. I also posted the 20 July plot link too. Just giving you guys a heads up. Softlavender (talk) 10:22, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I see that the 20 July plot section is suspiciously similar to the movie plot, and is uncited as well. Ribusprissin (talk) 14:27, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Looking for source

One of leading Polish newspapers quoted Stauffenberg words from 1939, when he entered bombed Wielun (translation mine, shortened a bit): "The people here are terrible rabble. So many Jews and mixlings. These are people, who feel good only under the whip. Thousands of PoWs will serve as good in agriculture". I can't find source for that, maybe some of the editors recognise that quote? Szopen (talk) 14:14, 17 February 2009 (UTC) http://www.bundestag.de/dasparlament/2004/26/Panorama/002.html "Die Bevölkerung ist ein unglaublicher Pöbel, sehr viele Juden und sehr viel Mischvolk. Ein Volk, welches sich nur unter der Knute wohlfühlt. Die Tausenden von Gefangenen werden unserer Landwirtschaft recht gut tun." --Gwinndeith (talk) 19:58, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Citations Needed in 'World War II' Section

Two claims made about von Stauffenberg's attitudes toward Kristallnacht and the Nazi extermination campaigns were tagged as being in need of citations. Haven't found anything about Kristallnacht yet, but added a citation for von Stauffenberg's disgust at learning of the systematic abuse and murder of Jews. The source (which is available via Google Books) is actually more definitive in its claim than the Wikipedia article. According to Hoffman, it was upon hearing accounts of the Einsatzkommando operations in Ukraine that von Stauffenberg decided that a coup was the best and moral course of action. - Unregistered User, 1 March 2009

 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.22.2.18 (talk) 05:38, 1 March 2009 (UTC) 

Would someone please correct the date of the photo located in the 'Early life' section of page #1 (or, alternatively, the date of the photo on page #2)? The caption reads "Stauffenberg at the Kavallerieregiment 17 during 1936", however, the larger photo page states a date of 1926. I doubt he looked the same ten years apart while riding the same horse! Or am I missing something here?

Page #1: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_von_Stauffenberg

Page #2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-C0716-0046-003,_Claus_Schenk_Graf_v._Stauffenberg.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by 115.139.171.174 (talk) 09:30, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Decorations and Awards

Decorations & Awards

17 August 1929 Sword of Honour 2 October 1936 Distinguished Service Badge, IVth Class 1 April 1938 Distinguished Service Badge, IIIrd Class 31 May 1940 Iron Cross, Ist Class 25 October 1941 Royal Bulgarian Order of Bravery, IVth Class 11 December 1942 Finnish Liberty Cross, IIIrd Class 14 April 1943 Wound Badge in Gold 20 April 1943 Italian-German Remembrance Medal 8 May 1943 German Cross in Gold


There was no Italian-German Remembrance Medal. The actual medal is called "Medaille für den Italienisch-Deutschen Feldzug in Afrika" - "Italo-German Campaign Medal in Africa". This award was not a "remembrance" medal, but was a campaign medal.

von Stauffenberg was also bestowed the following the awards:

Wehrmacht-Dienstauszeichnung - Long Service Awards of the Wehrmacht both 4 and 12 years service

Kriegsverdienst Kreuz (mit schwerten) - War Merit Cross 2nd Class —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.149.85.101 (talk) 14:51, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Can someone produce the source for the above Decorations and awards to add (references) to the article? There needs to be a source for the promotions also. Otr500 (talk) 10:28, 16 November 2010 (UTC)

In Popular Culture section -- not trivial

Someone suggested earlier that this be called "Legacy" and mention the many streets etc. named after Stauffenberg. That might be a good idea, but in any case I want to say that this is a valuable section, and I think the Wikipedia "This article contains too many minor or trivial fictional references" warning should be removed. This is an important aspect of Stauffenberg's significance since the 1944 plot, in a way like listing the biographies that have been written about him, or the books that treat him in depth.Hmarcuse (talk) 02:56, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Lacking any reasonable objections I am going to remove the trivia tag. The listing of movies made of the man, about the man, or some aspect of the man, are not trivia. I think a sub-section on books written should be included. Otr500 (talk) 10:09, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
  • I removed the trivia tag as I can not find "trivia" in a list of movies that are based on facts or fiction that are related to aspects of the mans life. His life, actions, and death have been recorded in history so I can not see a problem with listing movies based on aspects of these, especially when there was enough popularity that the list includes more than a few. If someone would care to expound on how this would violate any part of WP: then let us know. Otr500 (talk) 12:05, 3 November 2010 (UTC
I added the "in popular culture" tag, as suggested by SpikeToronto, which is appropriate. Otr500 (talk) 02:52, 5 November 2010 (UTC)

Rank

What was his final rank when he died? The article says that in 1943, he was Lt. Col. and does not mention further promotion. The data box gives his rank as Col. I've always heard of him as Col. von Stauffenberg until I saw a history channel program that identifies him as Lt. Col. Emperor001 (talk) 02:47, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

     1 April, 1944 - Oberst i.G

This is the date of his promotion to full Oberst according to the article and it sounds correct because in June 1944 (two months after his promotion to full Colonel), he was appointed to the General Staff of the Reserve Army, working directly under Colonel General Fredreich Fromm. This promotion gave him a better chance than ever to attempt the assassination on Hitler. As one of the senior officers of the General Staff of the Reserve Army, he would be in constant meetings with Hitler regarding strategy on both the Eastern and Western fronts. MikeDalbey (talk) 04:26, 19 August 2009 (UTC)