Talk:Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate

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Former good article Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate was one of the Sports and recreation good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
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edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate:

Here are some tasks awaiting attention:
Priority 4

Keep[edit]

In Defense[edit]

At the WikiProject I don't think that we hammered out what rivalry's were rated on the importance scale, but I rated this one a low because it is not that well known outside of Georgia. Bornagain4 17:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Governor's Cup[edit]

We need to find an actual picture of this trophy. Supposedly it is exchanged after the Tech-UGA game but I've only actually seen it once in the background a 1999 rebroadcast. If anyone has access to it or can get a good picture, that would be great. Excaliburhorn 13:27, 17-02-07 (UTC)

History section[edit]

The statement about Tech being an independent institution is incorrect (and the cited quote doesn't support the statement either). At the time of its establishment, the Georgia School of Technology was a department of UGA. Granted it was established as a remote department, but a department for certain. Check out Dress Her in White and Gold: A Biography of Georgia Tech by Robert B. Wallace, Jr. (copyright 1963) - the author states exacly that on the second page of the prologue and in subsequent parts of the book (p.16). Harris and Inman initially met with the UGA trustees to "organize the school and elect the faculty." (p.13) This needs to be rewritten in this article and the History of Georgia Tech article, and it would be good to have cited info about when Tech did become a separate institution. All this is very pertinent to the history and bitterness of this rivalry. --Roswell native 21:14, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Somehow I doubt that... but next chance I get, I'll have a look at that book. It is certainly possible that UGA, being the primary educational institution in the state, was consulted on certain aspects of the new school, such as organization. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 19:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks Disavian, but I would not have even mentioned this without having read it in a book by a Tech alum and former staff member (i.e. Wallace). I have no idea if there have been newer editions of Wallace's book, but I have the one copyrighted in 1963 and published by the Georgia Tech Foundation. So if you find that one the page numbers should be correct.
In the prologue, Wallace relates a story about finding president Hall's copy of the 1905 Commencement Program with some handwritten notes on it. Wallace then stated "Now this penciled note meant nothing to my history (I didn't need to be reminded at that time Tech was a department of the University of Georgia) but I was by then so immersed in serendipity that I spent the next hour or so running up and down the halls of the Administration Building, showing my prize to anyone I could find."
With respect to the current cited statement about Tech being established as an independent institution, the citation is referring to the location of Tech not it's governance - although it is written rather poorly and could be construed otherwise. UGA's agriculture school (referred to in the Mell citation) was established in a similar manner several decades before, but the location was kept in Athens after a very heated battle. The Ag school had similar governance- a separate president that reported into the UGA Board of Regents.--Roswell native 02:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it's very possible there may be some inaccuracies in this whole thing. I would like another source before I even consider this statement legitimate. Please refer to 1, 2, 3. I think the history may actually be something along the lines of "part of the University System of Georgia" not actually part of UGA. You'd be surprised how many mistakes there are in modern histories and "accurate" sources. We'll see. I'll search the old stuff in the GT Archives and see if anything surfaces. -Excaliburhorn 23:59 3-14-07 (UTC)
Excaliburhorn, I don't think I'll find a more reliable source than Wallace's book - I have a hard time believing a Tech grad would include such a statement in error (multiple times for that matter) in a history of Georgia Tech - in fact, I'll wager this was one of the most researched items in the book. None of the three references you mention contradicts his statement - in fact, all three seem devoid of information about Tech's overall governance. However, as a second source supporting Wallace, you can refer to The University of Georgia: A Bicentennial History: 1785-1985 by Thomas G. Dyer (ISBN 0-8203-2398-5) published in 1985. Granted the author is a UGA professor, but his book supports Wallace's statement. "By the beginning of World War I the state had eight public institutions of higher learning: the University of Georgia, the Georgia institute of Technology, North Georgia College, the State college of Agriculture, the State Normal School, the all-female Georgia Normal and Industrial College, the all-black Georgia State Industrial College, and the medical department of the University of Georgia located at Augusta. All of the Schools operated as branches of the university." (p. 166)
Also from the Dyer book, "While Georgia Tech had its own Board of Trustees, the institution legally remained a branch of the university, a position which became increasingly uncomfortable." (p. 167) For this quote, Dyer cites as his source a book by former Tech president M. L. Brittain, The Story of Georgia Tech (Chapel Hill, N.C., 1948) p.45 and Brooks, The University of Georgia, p.233, Appendix 1 "Student Enrollment at the University of Georgia, 1803-1955.
At this point, I think the statement "Despite Mell's arguments, the new school was an independent institution." should be moved from the article to this talk page and the same should be done for the History of Georgia Tech.
Tech, UGA and the other public institutions had their own Boards of Regents dissolved and the schools were moved under the University System of Georgia and its Board of Regents on January 1st, 1932. Chapter 11 of Wallace's book and Chapter 9 of Dyer's go into detail about the reorg in 1932. Those two chapters (and books for that matter) provide some excellent insight into the relationship between UGA and Tech and the resulting increase in intensity in the rivalry which definitely need to be worked into this article, the History of Tech article and the History of UGA section in the UGA article. --Roswell native 05:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
I've clarified that sentence in History of Georgia Tech, have a look. Since you have all of the resources and seem to be knowledgeable on the subject, would you mind writing up something about the infrastructure (and the changes thereof) we've been talking about? History of Georgia Tech touches upon a reorganization in 1931-1932, but I didn't realize how significant it was. Also, if you can cite something in this article, feel free to. I think that the article's greatest weakness at this point is lack of citations. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 05:31, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
Lack of citations and lack of sound reasoning behind the sometimes irrational dislike. I think this would be an excellent addition to the article if it is well documented and NPOV. We need to start looking for more information similar to this so outsiders can better understand the intensity and history behind it all. I will definitely get some better citations up in the next few days along with some interesting information. -Excaliburhorn 02:52 3-15-07 (UTC)
Disavian, your modification to the History of Georgia Tech sentence looks just right to me. Any objections to modifying the sentence in this article as well? I've been wary of editing the History of Tech article because anyone looking at my editing history will likely assume that I'm trying to add my POV, and I didn't want to have a lengthy discussion about my intentions. I'll see what I can come up with, but it might be a while in the making. If you can access either of the sources above, I'd recommend them both. Interesting and very illuminating to the acrimony behind the rivalry. I've certainly learned a lot in reading about this. This whole topic has a wealth of interesting and informative angles about the history of post-secondary public institutions in Georgia and the politics that created them.--Roswell native 02:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I copied over the change. As for POV- you have the books and the knowledge, so as long as what you add is well-referenced, I won't have a problem with it. Although, it looks like we ended up having a lengthy discussion anyway. :) If you like, you could start by expanding the history on this article, and relevant parts could be copied over to the respective school histories and the somewhat stubby Georgia Board of Regents article. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 03:52, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I saw a copy of one of the first degrees from Tech. The title was The University of Georgia, Georgia School of Technology. It's hanging in the mezzanine of the Alumni House. I need to get a picture of it. -Excaliburhorn 20:22 3-19-07 (UTC)

I found this article, which seems to answer a lot of the questions we had: Edwards, Pat (1999-11-19). "What's the good word?". The Technique. Retrieved 2007-04-10. Disavian (talk/contribs) 06:04, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Coaching Matchups[edit]

Do we want to keep the table to just the three primary sports, or expand it to include Tennis, Volleyball, etc? —Disavian (talk/contribs) 06:00, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Remaining needed citations[edit]

The following things still need to be referenced:

  1. The UGA Chapel Bell being stolen X mark.svg Not done
  2. Students saying "To Hell With Georgia Tech" at the end of UGA's fight song, "Glory, Glory." Yes check.svg Done
  3. Another source about the first football game, Yes check.svg Done especially one that confirms the team names
  4. Something that confirms the following quote from the AJC; Yes check.svg Done the actual article would be best:
The next day in the Atlanta Journal, an Athens journalist accused Tech of using "a heterogeneous collection of Atlanta residents - a United States Army surgeon, a medical student, a lawyer, and an insurance agent among them, with here and there a student of Georgia's School of Technology thrown in to give the mixture a Technological flavor." Hence, the sports rivalry was born.

That's the big stuff. If we can get those knocked out, I'd say that it's more or less between B and GA-class. It could still use improvement, of course, but it's looking great. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 06:19, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

  • Another source about the first football game, especially one that confirms the team names
I am somewhat certain the Wildcats reference to Georgia's team is not correct - I have seen that nickname mentioned as one for the basketball team for a short time in the 1920s, but I can't remember where I read it to be honest.--Roswell native 18:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we could remove their team name from the article until we're sure one way or the other. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 18:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • Something that confirms the following quote from the AJC; the actual article would be best:
The next day in the Atlanta Journal, an Athens journalist accused Tech of using "a heterogeneous collection of Atlanta residents - a United States Army surgeon, a medical student, a lawyer, and an insurance agent among them, with here and there a student of Georgia's School of Technology thrown in to give the mixture a Technological flavor." Hence, the sports rivalry was born.
I added this quote - it came from the Stegeman book in the existing refs. i have added as an inline citation. It would be nice to get it directly from the AJC article though, but I don't have easy access to a library that would have a copy.--Roswell native 18:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
The book citation is good enough for our purposes, I think. It'd be an impressive find to get a copy of the AJC article, though. Thanks for adding those :) —Disavian (talk/contribs) 18:40, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

UGA Chapel Bell[edit]

Copied from User talk:Disavian:

Hey, I saw your comment on the UGA Talk Page. The Chapel Bell has not been stolen by Georgia Tech, but another bell on campus has been; I will find out for sure which one within the next few days.Pruddle 06:43, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into that. The sentence in Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate I'm investigating is the following:
The UGA Chapel Bell and the Georgia Tech [[Rambling Wreck|Ramblin' Wreck]] have been rumored to have been stolen numerous times by their respective rival before, after, or even during major sporting events between the two schools.<ref name="wreck">{{cite web|url=http://cyberbuzz.gatech.edu/reck/wreck.html|title=The Ramblin' Reck Club: History of the Ramblin' Wreck|accessdate=2007-03-04}}</ref>{{Fact|date=March 2007}}
Disavian (talk/contribs) 06:49, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
The following reference seems to give a pretty clear account of the various things that have been stolen and given back: Edwards, Pat (1999-11-19). "What's the good word?". The Technique. Retrieved 2007-04-10. Disavian (talk/contribs) 06:06, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

GA Review[edit]

It is a pleasure to Pass this article for Good Article status, it is very well written and very comprehensive. I checked the citations which are factually accurate and verifiable. Considering it is an article about a school rivalry it is very good at maintaining a neutral point of view. I do however have a few suggestions, in the opening paragraph there is a sentence about the two schools being "the most prestigious public universities in the southeastern united states" which is not cited and should be done in order to keep with a NPOV. The first paragraph of the Traditions section seems very informational and neutral BUT it does not have a reference, I would suggest someone find a citation ASAP. The "other sports" section lacks some citation but it is still referenced so it is ok. Although I am passing this article I expect someone to fix some of my suggestions to make this article even better.--Joebengo 19:48, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the approval. That one sentence actually says "two of the most prestigious public universities in the..." which is simply stating that they are prestigious, not that they are the most prestigious. Also, prestige is hard to verify. The sentence might just be reworded at some point. I see that the other sports has a new citation, too. :) —Disavian (talk/contribs) 04:09, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Newspapers[edit]

"The school newspapers of the two institutions often mock their rival institution. The Red and Black, Georgia's newspaper, usually has several jokes and articles mocking Georgia Tech the week before the football game. The Technique, Georgia Tech's newspaper, prints a special edition mocking The Red and Black,[1] and commonly refers to its rival as "The University (sic) of Georgia."[1] The special edition features several articles of parody and humor based on fictitious happenings at the University of Georgia, and is known as "To Hell With Georgia," after the school's popular cheer. On years where the schools play their match at UGA's Sanford Stadium, Technique staff distribute the issue across UGA's campus.[1]"

Is "The Technique" still distrbuted at the UGA campus?

Yes, the past few years Techniques have appeared in the newspaper areas on UGA's campus. Usually, this'll occur during the week leading up to the GT-UGA games @ Sanford. --Excaliburhorn 04:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I second this as being true... especially since I'm on the Nique's staff. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 06:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Remaining Stories[edit]

Here's a comprehensive list of incidents I've made. I'm sure there are more but I need to find sources for this stuff. I'll buff up the article moreso with this content.

  • 1885 - Tech founded as Georgia School of Technology, UGA's Mechanical Engineering School
  • 1891 - Tech chooses old gold, navy blue, and white as official school colors after UGA removes gold from its school colors, Tech students attend UGA-Auburn football game and cheer for Auburn in gold and white
  • 1893 - First Tech-UGA features Tech winning and UGA students pelting Tech players and coaches with stones during and after the game
  • 1907 - UGA contests baseball result in first game of Tech series, UGA refuses to finish series and sports relationship cut between both schools until 1909
  • 1908 - Ramblin' Wreck from Georgia Tech published featuring the lyric "To Hell With Georgia"
  • 1908 - UGA incites SIAA investigation into Tech recruiting practices
  • 1917 - Football series discontinued because of too much on and off the field violence
  • 1919 - UGA students make anti-Tech floats in WWI victory parade, athletic competition suspended again
  • 1929 - Up with the White and Gold published featuring lyrics "Down with the Red and Black" Tech students chase cow onto Grant Field instigating a riot, which could not be stopped by Atlanta police, cow had following phrase on it, "This ain't no bull. We gonna beat UGA."
  • 1943 & 1944 - UGA blown out in football by Tech, games descredited by modern UGA athletic department
  • 1946 - UGA fans ask coal union bosses to strike in Athens preventing Tech's team from traveling to Athens for football game, Bobby Dodd hires DC-3 to fly team to Athens
  • 1946 - UGA and Tech issue first ever official peace treaty to cease campus vandalism
  • 1964 - Tech leaves the SEC in protest
  • 1978 - UGA votes against Tech's attempted re-entry to SEC
  • 1980 - Tech ties Notre Dame, in essence giving UGA its only National Title in football
  • 1983 - John Dewberry transfers from UGA to Tech and becomes starting QB. Ends up with 2-1 record against UGA and the only upset victories over UGA in all of Tech football history.
  • 1992 - Georgia Tech marching band sneaks astroturf GT into Sanford Stadium and places it at centerfield during halftime performance, removed by UGA cheerleaders soon after
  • 1993 - UGA questions fairness of playing annual basketball game in Omni (4 miles from Tech campus)
  • 1994 - Ryan Stewart and Eric Zeier start brawl in South End Zone to end the season for Tech and UGA
  • 2000 - UGA band members stab giant inflatable Buzz

--Excaliburhorn 18:04, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Results chart?[edit]

Why isn't there a results chart (of the football games played) like other rivalry articles on wikipedia? Cardsplayer4life (talk) 04:45, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Use of File:Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate.jpg on this article[edit]

The use of File:Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate.jpg on this article is inappropriate. Please see Wikipedia:NFC#Images_2, particularly points 7 and 8. This image would be appropriate for an article about the book. The image might be appropriate for this article if the cover were particularly famous and tightly relevant to the article other than just being a book about the rivalry. There's a claim in the reversion that re-instituted this photo [1] that the image is discussed in the article. I haven't read every word in the article, but have searched for "publish"(ed), "cromartie" and "book" and found no references to the book in the article text, only in the caption of the image.

The image is being used here decoratively and inappropriately. I was asked in the edit summary of the reversion to bring it here to the talk page. So, here I am. This is a very clear cut case of inappropriate use. --Hammersoft (talk) 13:17, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

Definitely not appropriate as both an improper use of a book cover on a page not about the book, and the fact that here's a case where the image adds nothing to the understanding of the article and that it can be replaced by text, or if absolutely needed, two freely made images of the teams logos which fail the threshold of originality text (they'd still be trademarked, but can't be copyrighted). --MASEM (t) 13:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Concur with Hammersoft and Masem above. Completely uncontroversial. If the article really passed as GA with this image used in it, that says much about the GA process. CIreland (talk) 14:26, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
A great example of inappropriate use of a non-free image. It's a near-exact match to example #4 of inappropriate use on WP:NFC. --Carnildo (talk) 22:27, 10 July 2009 (UTC)
Just to concur with above. The cover of the book is not of any importance. J Milburn (talk) 17:54, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

Possible bias[edit]

{{Bias}} The article claims the university of Georgia is "generally recognized as the University for students that did not get accepted to Tech." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.82.61 (talkcontribs) 00:41, 14 January 2010

I removed it. In the future, be bold and fix any problems you see, especially if they're as simple as that. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 19:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Here is the years list:

Series Originated 1893
Overall Record Georgia leads, 60-39-5

Georgia (60)
1897 1898 1899
1900 1903 1910
1911 1912 1913
1926 1929 1930
1931 1933 1934
1936 1940 1941
1942 1945 1946
1948 1957 1958
1959 1960 1964
1965 1966 1967
1968 1971 1972
1973 1975 1976
1978 1979 1980
1981 1982 1983
1986 1987 1988
1991 1992 1993
1994 1995 1996
1997 2001 2002
2003 2004 2005
2006 2007 2009
Georgia Tech (39)
1893 1904 1905
1906 1907 1909
1914 1916 1925
1927 1928 1935
1939 1943 1944
1947 1949 1950
1951 1952 1953
1954 1955 1956
1961 1962 1963
1969 1970 1974
1977 1984 1985
1989 1990 1998
1999 2000 2008
Ties (5)
1902 1915 1932 1937 1938

There is probably another way to display this information; I'm thinking the collapsible list of all-americans on Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets or perhaps the way college football games look like on a page like 2009 Georgia Tech Yellow Jackets football team. That way, we could display more information about each year. That might end up being put into a separate article if it's long enough. —Disavian (talk/contribs) 23:40, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Bulky, doesn't add much. I like the current styling a lot better.Excaliburhorn (talk) 16:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

GA Reassessment[edit]

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Clean, Old-Fashioned Hate/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

GA onhold.svg This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed, listed below. I will check back in seven days. If these issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far.

GA review (see here for criteria)

Going through this article I founds several glaring flaws, and I then realised that these issues had been brought up in an FA review as early as October 2007. The review covers the issues pretty well, so please follow the link for details. Primarily it has to do with:

  • Topics that are mentioned in the lead but not in the main text.
  • The first two paragraphs of the "History" section are "choppy and confusing".
  • Lack of references: first paragraph and last sentence of "Traditions", much of the statistics.

After almost two and a half years, there should have been enough time to address these issues, but nothing has been done. I would like to point out that – while GA criteria are less strict than FA criteria – the same demands for proper layout, comprehensible prose and sufficient referencing apply.

Normally I would give a one-week period for the problems to be fixed, but seeing how long these issues have gone without being addressed, I will just delist the article forthright. Lampman (talk) 11:51, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

File:Rivarly Image.jpg[edit]

Just a heads up to let you know that I have nominated File:Rivarly Image.jpg for deletion on Commons. Thanks, Acather96 (talk) 19:55, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

File:Rivarly Image.jpg Nominated for Deletion[edit]

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Basketball Section[edit]

Unless I'm missing something, "The two teams have played 186 times with Georgia Tech holding 101 wins over Georgia's 86 wins." doesn't add up. Auto98uk (talk) 23:12, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

  1. ^ a b c "Nique staff does Athens in lavish style". The Technique. 2000-12-01. Retrieved 2007-03-15.