Talk:Colonies in antiquity

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Comments[edit]

Note: this article has used the formula BCE/CE since its inception

Anonymous edit: Pithekoussai, the first settlement in the west, is considered by some (David Ridgway) to be a proto-colony, or halfway point between emporion and apoikia, marked with similar intentions to later colonies but a less successful outcome. Can anyone disambiguate these references? David Ridgeway's book title? Any hint would help.--Wetman 09:32, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Ridgway's book could be "The World of the Early Etruscans", "The First Western Greeks", "The Etruscans", "Italy Before the Romans", or "Pithekoussai", co-written with Giorgio Buchner (or something else not in the library). Adam Bishop 14:32, 11 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Related topics[edit]

Would it be proper to add in information about colonies founded in the ancient era (say, before 500 AD):

  • by non-Mediterranean nations, such as the Chinese?
  • discussing how Roman colonies on the Germanic, Slavic, and African borders differed?
  • by cultures instead of by nations, such as the Hebrews and Polynesians?
  • in the middle of other cities, such as the many non-Roman cities that developed Roman enclaves?
  • of entire nations relocating, such as the Franks, Hebrews, or Toltecs?

If any of the experts on this topic say "no" to any of my questions, please point me in the direction of articles in the Wikipedia that do cover these subjects. Thanks! --M@rēino 20:54, 27 October 2005 (UTC) It also be nice to have infromation that is past ancient times.--Scott3 01:50, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Blatant Innacuracies:[edit]

... with the most active being Miletus, with ninety colonies stretching throughout the Mediterranean Sea, from the shores of the Black Sea and Anatolia (modern Turkey) in the east, to the southern coast of the Iberian Peninsula in the west, as well as several colonies on the northern coast of Africa with the overall sum...

There were no Greek colonies whatsoever in Southern Iberia. In fact there were only two Massilian trading posts in the northermost past of the Mediterranean Iberian coast: Emporion and Rhodes, at the foot of the Pyrenees. Greeks had indeed relations with Iberians all along the coast but they had no colonies except the two trading posts (emporia) mentioned. Southern Iberia was an exclussive Phoenician colonization are, the same as North Africa, what may be another innacuracy, unless the text refers to colonies in Cyrenaica and trading posts in Egypt. --Sugaar (talk) 14:10, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps a quibble over whether the Greek apoikiai along the Mediterranean coast of Iberia were "really colonies" or not is at the heart of this outburst. Perhaps we should all read G.R. Tsetskhladze (ed.), Greek Colonisation: An Account of Greek Colonies and Other Settlements Overseas. Vol. I (Leiden: Brill) 2006, and bring ourselves up to date on post-modern rethinking of "colonies" and why the term is rejected by Niemeyer and Vanschoonwinkel's contributions in that volume. It seems from reviews that Dominguez, in his Iberian chapter, suggests that colonies are strictly apoikiai, and that to be designated a colony, a settlement's primary focus must not be commercial. No one is denying the presence of permanent Greek settlements along the coast of Iberia, or claiming "exclusive" Phoenician colonization areas. --Wetman (talk) 17:59, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
It's clear that the Greeks traded along all Iberia, even in "Phoenician" areas but their settlements there, if they existed, are yet to be found. We know for sure about Emporion and Rhodes. There are a handful of names of uncertain meaning and much more uncertain location (Hemeroskopeion for instance, as it's the one that appears here and there). And that's all.
But trading, they certainly traded as far as Western Andalusia. And they are claimed to have been a factor in the homogeneization of the Iberian culture. --Sugaar (talk) 14:58, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Use this map[edit]

Use this map
Map of colonies ancient colonies
Megistias (talk) 21:38, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

(copied from User talk:Wetman:

Hello could you use this map for the article? Its from the commons.Megistias (talk) 21:39, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Yes, that's more like the right sort of map! Each colony should be a dot of color with a blurry edge. And relief topography, as shown, controls the situation: modern state boundaries are just distracting. The only problem is that even with full resolution, the names are illegible. Why not post this at Talk:Colonies in antiquity to discuss the completeness and accuracy of its contents, then ask the team working on maps to improve it? I'll copy and paste this there to get talk going. --Wetman (talk)
What do folks think? This is an article where an accurate map is essential information. --Wetman (talk) 21:59, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Javierfv1212 's map should be removed until he improves it.I have left message to his page as well on the map.Megistias (talk) 22:02, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
A note on Greek colonies in Iberia: The only colonies that are confirmed and universally accepted as real are Emporion and Rhodes (not visible in that map but slightly to the north of Emporion, in the small peninsula east of the Pyrenees). Both were emporia (trade posts) of Massilia. It's argued that they might have also found other factories (but not full fledged colonies in any case) further south but this is not proven. That is the case of Hemeroskopeion and other unlocated sites like Akra Leuke. That map is the first time ever I read the name of Zakynthos - I don't think there was ever any trade post with that name in Iberia.
Greeks indeed traded intensely in Iberia (in spite of the important Carthaginian influence) but their bases seem to have been in Massilia and Emporion basically - at least that's what arcaheology can tell. --Sugaar (talk) 10:33, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

This map is extremey in accurate!Side, Karia and Likia were sovereign Luwian entities. While Asia(Ionic Anatolia) was under Lydian authority. Also including pre-historic city names as if they were colonies founded by outlanders is very misleading. Smyrna, Troya and Byzantium were conquered by Hellenics not founded. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.240.115.134 (talk) 17:25, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

Map[edit]

AntikeGriechen is not controversial the other one is.Megistias (talk) 15:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

how is it "controversial"? dab (𒁳) 15:46, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Its has not legend that means ???? and illyrians for one are shown to be in even in thessaly.Megistias (talk) 15:51, 7 March 2008 (UTC)
sigh, I had half expected this is about some territorial sensitivity regarding Illyrians again. It's an approximate map, ok? Don't use it to negotiate the boundaries of modern Greece. Don't you feel just a tad foolish for getting so worked up over what dialect was spoken on which mountain slope in the Balkans 2,400 years ago? We can only ever have a rough sketch of that now. dab (𒁳) 14:56, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I actually dont do this "negotiate the boundaries of modern Greece", my reaction is defensive to those that do from the other side.Since sources say that they were ancient Greeks i do get worked up about it.And yes the map had much to want for and it is wrong.There are no illyrians there and if its wasnt that issue it still looks bad.Megistias (talk) 15:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I am fixing its border.Its still bad and has to few cities like most maps i have seen.I should make on myself on ancient colonies when i find a better blank map.Megistias (talk) 15:09, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
Page 1326:"... Spain and France Pithekoussai Zakynthos Emporion Pyxous Massalia Rhegion Aitolia Aigition Sikelia Taras Chalkis ...",An Inventory of Archaic and Classical Poleis: Megistias (talk) 10:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
But in the list(spain and france) it has Alalie,Emporion,Massalie,Rhode but in the descriptions it has a lot more .......needs seeing intoMegistias (talk) 10:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Kartaia[edit]

I was wondering whether anyone knows anything about "Kartaia", which is shown on the map in the place of Gibraltar. Gibraltar was a Phoenician colony / trading post, and was known as "Calpe". I have never come across the name "Kartaia" before, and it looks too different to be a Germanized form of "Calpe". Is it a variant of the Phoenician word? Google doesn't produce any results for it, so I was wondering what source the map maker used for it, and whether it is referred to in any books on Phoenician civilization. If there is precedent for use of the name, it would make for a worthwhile addition to the History of Gibraltar article. Thanks, Saluton (talk) 00:30, 10 July 2008 (UTC)


Other areas[edit]

Is there areas on other continents that could be added? Enlil Ninlil (talk) 20:59, 18 January 2010 (UTC)