Talk:Columbia River

Finetooth and Theodore Roosevelt 1908

In this edit User:Finetooth decided to remove a ref plus an extract of text from it (that appeared in the notes, NOT in the main article body) stating "please discuss large-scale changes on talk page before making them". I have readded the ref, plus the text (now in the main body) stating: "REJECT assertion that including ref which cites relevant portion of pub dom primary src. as footnote is "large-scale change" or that I have to get approval for simple edits first." If you think the extract is too long then pare it down. If you think that the extract doesn't improve the article then say so when removing it, but leave the ref. If you think that its unnecessary to use if its mentioned in the first, then say so when taking it out (though I don't see how removing the ref itself improves the article at all). But don't assert that an edit that literally doesn't change the meaning of the body text is a "large-scale change" or that I somehow have to get your approval first. -- Limulus (talk) 21:16, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

First, let's tone it down, NO NEED TO SHOUT with all caps. Secondly, since Finetooth was one of the editors to help get this article to Featured Status, perhaps a little WP:AFG. Lastly, please properly cite what you added to match the existing citations, per WP:CITE. It's those little things that can lead down the road of de-listing at FAR. Thanks. Aboutmovies (talk) 01:29, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Added Template:Cite web to the ref to improve the quality. Note: while A STRING OF ALL CAPS WORDS LIKE THIS MEANS SHOUTING, yes, single words in capitals are for EMPHASIS, similar to using italics or *asterisks*. -- Limulus (talk) 03:17, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Limulus, please see our Wikiquette. An all caps word is a shouted word. If you must emphasize something, use italics, though that should not be necessary if the message is well formed. —EncMstr (talk) 03:20, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I understand, Limulus, that it's annoying to have any of your changes reverted, and I don't doubt that you made them in good faith. It took a group of editors what I think must have been hundreds of hours collectively to get the article up to FA, and we are naturally protective of it even though we don't own it. It's my opinion that the quote adds unnecessary detail to an already long article. The point that canneries were hard on the salmon is adequately made without the Roosevelt quote, in my opinion. I would suggest reverting to the last version by User:Epipelagic. If the Roosevelt quote is not used, then the citation to its source is not necessary. The source to the power council document supports the original claim that canneries were hard on the fish. If other editors who have contributed significantly to the article think that the Roosevelt quote is a good addition to the article, I accept that. If not, I hope you will reconsider and remove the quote. Finetooth (talk) 04:03, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmm... questions of merit for my edit aside, your point about the article size is quite valid; I hadn't looked too closely at that before; it currently stands at 144K, which is generally considered too big, yes even if ths only adds 2K. Having a look around at other articles, it could work in Salmon#Salmon_fisheries. I will move it there. -- Limulus (talk) 04:28, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. Your willingness to reconsider is appreciated. Finetooth (talk) 17:27, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

French article is impressive

Dear English editors, French wikipedians sharply improved the French version of this subject to an impressive extand, with the finest maps possible. We are pleased to share with you our content : ) Yug (talk) 15:30, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing this. The French version at fr:Columbia (fleuve) does indeed look beautiful. Finetooth (talk) 19:32, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Suggesting article should mention that Columbia was called by some "Oregon River"

I recently offered changes to the "New Waves of Explorers" section of this article but User:Finetooth kindly pointed out that I should seek feedback on the talk page before making significant changes to a featured article. I didn't mean to remove any current text or sources, but wanted to insert a mention that the Columbia River used to be called by some the Oregon River. The Oregon Blue Book explains that the very first written record of the name Oregon was in reference to the river (not the territory), and the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1910 mentions that Oregon State took its name from the river. I propose it's worth mentioning in the article that the land originally took its name from the river rather than vice versa because this conveys how central the river was in the minds of the early European explorers of the region. I propose the following text and the first or both of the following sources be used. Appreciate feedback, I'm a novice editor. http://www.bluebook.state.or.us/facts/almanac/almanac04.htm http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11288a.htm

In the 18th century, there was strong interest in discovering a Northwest Passage through which ships could navigate between the Pacific Ocean and either the Atlantic or major rivers of inland North America such as the Missouri or Mississippi. In 1765 Major Robert Rogers petitioned the Kingdom of Great Britain, seeking money to finance such an expedition, writing "the rout . . . is from the Great Lakes towards the Head of the Mississippi, and from thence to the River called by the Indians Ouragon. . . .”[source] This is the first documented use of the name "Oregon," thus the early Oregon Territory and now the present day state of Oregon took their names from the river now known as the Columbia River.[source] --Isaac.holeman (talk) 08:57, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm a little surprised there isn't already something about this on the page. The term "Oregon River" is mentioned in the infobox under "nicknames", but that's it. "River of the West" is also listed under nicknames but never explained. I'm not sure whether we should add something about it, or where, or how to word it if we do. My first thoughts are about the early "legendary" Oregon River (AKA River of the West) and why it became linked with the Columbia. I mean, sure the Columbia was a big river in the west, but it didn't exactly live up to the legendary river's promise of a navigable passage. Gray gave the real river the name "Columbia" before anyone knew much of anything about it; and people started calling it the Columbia right away. So I wondered if the real river was ever actually called "Oregon River". A bit of quick searching indicates yes: the name was used, at least for a while. There's probably a better source, but here's one that talks about it a little bit, Explorations Into the World of Lewis and Clark, p. xxxi, and p. xxxv.

Anyway, it seems that if we describe this stuff something more than Robert Rogers' use of "Ouragon" is needed, since Rogers had no idea the actual Columbia even existed. We could say something about how this legendary Oregon/River of the West idea took hold, was shown on maps, etc., such that when the actual Columbia was found it was "close enough" to the legend for the name to transfer. Also, I'd say the name "Oregon" was applied to the river and the "Oregon Country" around it rather than "Oregon Territory". It appears that terms like "Oregon river and territory" were used by 1828 (in Congress anyway, [1]), but the difference between that small-t territory and the later legal entity Oregon Territory can be confusing, while "Oregon Country" is more clear. We'd need more/better sources, I think. Shouldn't be too hard to find though. Just some late night thoughts. I'm not sure offhand if this stuff is necessary to include. And, if it is, how to say it clearly but tersely. Pfly (talk) 09:52, 11 March 2012 (UTC)