Talk:Consolidation of Sweden

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Untitled[edit]

If you click on the link to the swedish language wikipedia you'll come to: "Sverige under Kalmarunionen", but that article is about the period from the end of the 14:th century to the beginning of 16:th. Shouldn't this article be directed to a more appropriate entry in the swedish wiki, and if such an article couldn't be found, shouldn't the link to the swedish wikipeda be entirely deleted? /15.09, 2005 Sept 16

Explain "ill-ruler"!

Syd1435 09:34, 2004 Dec 4 (UTC)

I don't understand it myself, and I agree that it's not Neutral, so I've tagged it NPOV for it to be reviewed. Bo-Lingua

I have renamed this article "consolidation of Sweden" because the idea that Sweden was "unified" at a certain time is inherently POV and will probably always be a matter of dispute.--Wiglaf 19:25, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)

If you ask me Sweden existed as some kind of lose federation in the late 10th century. Olof Skötkonung was at least formally king of both Svealand and Götaland. (How much power he had outside the province where he was is an other issue.) During the following 3 – 4 centuries Sweden gradually grow together to form an unitary state. Consequently, it is very hard to say a definite year when the kingdom was “unified”.

2007-02-21 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

A while ago, I moved a substantial section to Early Swedish History, because I don't think this problematic article should represent so much of Swedish history as it previously did.--Wiglaf 30 June 2005 22:16 (UTC)

Åboland missing from map[edit]

I posted this on the image talk page Image talk:Scandinavia-12th century.png

This image gives a false view of the distribution on the Swedish speaking populations. On of the largest consentrations of Finland-Swedes is in Åboland, the archipelago connecting Åland to mainland Finland. The base map only shows a large gapping sea, where there are in fact are closely linked communities of Swedish speaking farmers and fishermen.

Few of the islands are more then one kilometres from their neighbours. In preindustrial times the archipelago has the main traffic route between Finland and Sweden. Now the island communities are connected by the Archipelago Ring Road. In the 12th century this was one of the most densely populated parts of Finland. These people most likely spoke Swedish. -- Petri Krohn 01:29, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Consolidation of Denmark[edit]

This article states that there is no date for Sweden, but there is for Norway and Denmark. I'd like to know those dates. Cause even the article for Denmark states that the Consolidation of Denmark is prehistoric. --[Svippong - Talk] 15:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I think Harald Bluetooth consolidated Denmark, as he wrote so himself in public on the Jelling stones. Also, a system of Viking ring fortress was built in Denmark during his reign. /Pieter Kuiper 15:59, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Debate on sources[edit]

User:Fred J submitted this page to the Wikipedia:WikiProject League of Copyeditors. The debate over sources that followed its completion requires a separate section on the talk page. --Kenneth M Burke 13:42, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Your efforts are appreciated, but this article is a bit of a problem. Nothing is known about petty kingdoms in Sweden. Still, some people have strong opinions. /Pieter Kuiper 16:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, some people have so strong opinions that they manage to get themselves blocked for edit-warring on the subject. If you believe that "nothing is known about petty kingdoms in Sweden", I suggest books by the archaeologist Mats G. Larsson (e.g. Götarnas riken, 2002).--Berig 20:00, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
That book by Larsson has had exceedingly negative reviews by historians. Some archelogists find a petty king in every other grave with a sword in it. /Pieter Kuiper 20:50, 19 September 2007 (UTC)
Please, provide links or references to these "exceedingly negative reviews". They sound interesting.--Berig 10:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Historisk tidskrift had a review of Göternas riken (page 140-142) by Lars Hermanson. (In Swedish). /Pieter Kuiper 12:24, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
It does not sound very critical. Lars Hermanson merely says that he prefers a different approach where the commonality and the networking of medieval aristocracy is the centre of attention rather than tribal warfare.--Berig 13:36, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
In the introduction Hermanson is ironic about Larsson's "trained eye" of an archeologist. Futher on he says that Larsson gives a rehash of Birger Nerman's nationalistic way of writing history. Hermanson says that Larsson reminds of history writing in terms of Herrenvolk that spread culture by conquest. He says that Larsson emphasizes cultural differences between the Svea-people and the Göta-people, and that he tends to interpret everything in terms of conflict. He states that Larsson's methods do not differ much from that of Västgötaskolan, that he seems to respond to it by constructing (or restoring) an equally chauvinistic Svea-school.
Hermanson's review, published in a scholarly journal, suggests that Larsson is hopelessly old-fashioned, stuck in a 1930's semi-fascist way of thinking. /Pieter Kuiper 14:03, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
He does not express himself in as harsh words as you do (rehash, chauvinistic, etc.), but it is true that Lars Hermanson seems to position himself in a different ideological camp from Larsson. Since Iron Age northern Europe hardly was a permanent haven of "peace and harmony", I do not see the problem in Mats Larsson writing about tribal warfare, which should have taken place occasionally.--Berig 14:10, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

But historians do, Berig. For what it is worth, rehash is hardly harsher than "dammat av", neither is chauvinistic any more damning than what Hermanson alludes to when he writes words like "Storsvitjod" and "herrefolk". Mats G. Larsson represents right wing provincialism and not what main stream historians are saying. It is as simple as that.

mvh, Marcus


Copyedit[edit]

Svithiod[edit]

While an article on this subject definitely could and should include a discussion of the term Svithiod, what it should not have is a long paragraph that identifies it with the modern concept of Sweden (it is etymologically equivalent of the modern English "Sweden", but that's another matter). "Svithiod" means "land of the Swedes", but its extent vary between sources (see Nationalencyklopedin). It has even been argued that one of the signs that modern Sweden was born was when "Svitjod" was replaced by "Sverige". Thus, the fact that it appears as distinct from areas in modern Götaland doesn't have to mean anything.

The removed paragraph also suffered from other problems - Swedish sources from 9th-11th century? Really? I'm sure historians would love to hear what those would be.

Andejons (talk) 13:35, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

"scholars differ in characterizing early Sweden as a country, state or kingdom by definition"[edit]

Isn't any kingdom a state, and any state a country? СЛУЖБА (talk) 02:21, 13 November 2012 (UTC)