Talk:Conspiracy theory

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This page has been cited as a source by a media organization. The citation is in: Paul Krugman (8/5/2006). "Who's Crazy Now?". New York Times. http://select.nytimes.com/2006/05/08/opinion/08krugman.html&OQ=_rQ3D1Q26hp&OP=15fb7bb3Q2FXLQ3EoXa5Q2FQ22Q22aXzEEQ25XEBXE@XQ22Q24cfcQ22fXE@_Q2FpQ5BgYf(!agO.  (details)

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Contents 1 Conspiracy theorists section guideline 1.1 Ken McCarthy 2 List of alleged conspiracy theorists 2.1 Conspiracy theorists 3 Ontology 4 Consensus over lead? 5 Notes 6 Proven theories? 7 removed byron york reference

[edit] Conspiracy theorists section guideline

"Editors must take particular care when writing biographical material about living persons, for legal reasons and in order to be fair. We must remove unsourced or poorly sourced contentious material immediately if it is about a living person." Therefore, we need to cite either a work of scholarship or an article from a mainstream news organization, which makes it clear that a person is believed to be a conspiracy theorist. --Loremaster (talk) 16:24, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Could you provide an 'official' link for above must statement, and for the conclusive 'therefore' statement. 93.87.231.231 (talk) 14:50, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. --Loremaster (talk) 18:20, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

No mention of mainstream there. 93.87.231.231 (talk) 22:36, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources. --Loremaster (talk) 00:18, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

it does seem wikipedia is becoming a mainstream encyclopedia. last time i was checking that policy (early 2008), there was no mention of mainstream in it. very unfortunate development -- encyclopedia that is going to mirror what mainstream corporate mass media owned by a few are repeating all the time -- beats the purpose of encyclopedia. luckily, wikipedia is an evolving system, so future editors may change this nonsense. 93.87.231.231 (talk) 16:59, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm looking at the current list of conspiracy theorists. It's random, many of the names listed lack bios, the bios of the people who are listed are poorly researched and in some cases inaccurate, sensationalized and lacking in documentation. Putting the list in a table and adding birth years does not constitute unbiased research. The criteria being used appears to be "someone once said something somewhere that sounded like it could have been a conspiracy theory therefore I feel it's acceptable to list this person as a conspiracy theorist in wikipedia." This is clearly not in keeping with even basic wikipedia standards.

The intent to smear specific individuals like politician Lyndon Larouche (by highlighting his criminal conviction) or Dave Emory and Mae Brussel (by presenting a characature of their research and writings on the survival of fascism in the post-war era) is blatant and obvious. It's become especially obvious when accurate, documented and verifiable information has been added about these individuals and others and it has been removed and replaced with patently inferior and biased writing. These activiies constitutes a not-so-subtle form of vandalism of the article. I think it's blatant enough that the matter needs to be looked at by the larger wikipedia community for an opinion.

If there is to be a list of "conspiracy theorists," serious standards for inclusion need to created. It can't just be a matter of one persistent person's whim or opinion.

What has already been suggested is not a bad place to start: "we need to cite either a work of scholarship or an article from a mainstream news organization, which makes it clear that a person is believed to be a conspiracy theorist." It's a place to start, but it's still pretty thin criteria. Since conspiracy theorist is a derogatpry term and is a commentary on an individuals intelligence, integrity, and even sanity, this designation should be applied carefully only if the preponderance of references characterize the person this way. Even then, special care should be taken in the case of living persons.

I think the list needs to be removed in its entirety pending the creation of serious and standardized criterial for adding people to it. The rationale for including any individual living or dead needs to be open for discussion pro and con with serious data and documentation being presented. Nolatime (talk) 00:28, 18 August 2009 (UTC) Nolatime

Although I personally think that Lyndon Larouche, Dave Emory, and Mae Brussel are conspiracy theorists, I've never contributed to the list and I actually agree it should be removed from the article until each entry can be sourced. --Loremaster (talk) 19:30, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

It’s pretty easy for anybody who’s willing to spare even a few minutes a day. A lot of these people have their own articles here. Just visit them and use any good sources they have. — NRen2k5^(TALK), 20:01, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

You might be confused. We need to cite either a work of scholarship or an article from a mainstream news organization, which makes it clear that the person we want to add to this list is believed to be a conspiracy theorist. --Loremaster (talk) 20:29, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

I guess you’re right – even if we have plenty of good sources saying that Person A believes in Concept B and that Concept B is a conspiracy theory, it’s only acceptable for us to list him as a conspiracy theorist if a good source explicitly says so. It sounds totally fucking ridiculous on the face of it, but I suppose BLP can be like that sometimes. — NRen2k5^(TALK), 21:26, 18 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Ken McCarthy

I removed the entry for Ken McCarthy from the list of 'Conspiracy Theorists' as it is inaccurate and misleading so to describe him. While a case can be made out that a small proportion of the video clip reprints on the brasschecktv.com site might qualify as conspiracy theories, much of the material comes from reputable mainstream news sources, comedy programs etc. In any case the site makes it clear that the views expressed in the contents are those of their respective originators and not necessarily endorsed by the site's proprietors. DaveApter (talk) 13:58, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Nonsense. Even assuming that he no longer runs the site, he is still responsible for the selection, and is therefore a promoter of conspiracy theories. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 14:36, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary, whether hosting a site which contains - among much other material - reprints of clips that you judge to be 'conspiracy theories' justifies labelling the site owner a 'Conspiracy Theorist'. This is a term that should be used with discrimination in view of its pejorative implications (as the introduction to this article says: "The term is therefore often used dismissively in an attempt to characterize a belief as outlandishly false and held by a person judged to be a crank or a group confined to the lunatic fringe."

It is clearly entirely appropriate for this section to list individuals such as David Icke and Kent Hovind, and completely absurd to include people like Ken McCarthy alongside them. For this reason, I have removed him again.DaveApter (talk) 15:18, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary, your position is absurd. I'll have to check whether you've completed the whitewash of McCarthy's article, removing the sourced information that he (at least used to) solicit conspiracies, but that is adequate, even if he didn't contribute or host. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 15:45, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Arthur Rubin. --Loremaster (talk) 17:45, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Hi, Loremaster, and thanks for your ongoing attempts to bring some sanity to this article. However I'm confused by your endorsement of Arthur Rubin's position here as it seems completely at odds with what you say yourself in the section above:

"We need to cite either a work of scholarship or an article from a mainstream news organization, which makes it clear that the person we want to add to this list is believed to be a conspiracy theorist."

Where are the works of scholarship or mainstream news articles which identify Ken McCarthy as a conspiracy theorist? DaveApter (talk) 11:56, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that we need to cite works of scholarship or mainstream news articles which identify Ken McCarthy as a conspiracy theorist. However, I was simply expressing my personal opinion that McCarthy is a conspiracy theorist even if we can't cite such works and articles. --Loremaster (talk) 15:06, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Therefore, in order to comply with the BLP guideline you quote above, we should remove him from the list until such time as one of these reliable sources can be found and cited? DaveApter (talk) 18:36, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think the entire list should moved here to the archives until it is completely sourced. --Loremaster (talk) 18:38, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree - I went ahead and did that. DaveApter (talk) 15:19, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I note that Ken McCarthy, who has hundreds of Internet references and over one dozen book references as an Internet pioneer, entrepreneur and educator, has now been designated a "conspiracy journalist" in the External Links section of this article. This inspired a look at the dictionary.

The phrases "conspiracy journalist" and "conspiracy journalism" do not exist in any English dictionary I was able to find, online or offline. A Google search turns up three uses total - one in wikipedia, one in something called wapedia and one on a site that republishes wikipedia articles. The wikipedia article on "conspiracy journalism" has been entirely inactive since it was posted and contains only posts made by a single individual.

For these reasons, I'm removing this link. I have also proposed in the Discussion area for the "conspiracy journalism" article that the article "conspiracy journalism" be removed and would welcome the assistance of more experienced wikipedia users in making this proposal to the wikipedia community. Thanks.Nolatime (talk) 18:32, 23 August 2009 (UTC)Nolatime

[edit] List of alleged conspiracy theorists

Here is the list from the article, so that adequate sources may be sought DaveApter (talk) 15:25, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Conspiracy theorists

The following people are known to have proposed conspiracy theories:

James Jesus Angleton (1917 - 1987)	American Cold War spymaster whose paranoid excesses as the CIA's counter-intelligence czar, arising from false information provided by his KGB defector friend Anatoliy Golitsyn, had adverse effects on the Agency.[1]
Art Bell (born 1945)	American founder and longtime host of the paranormal-themed radio program Coast to Coast AM.
Peter Beter (1921 - 1987)	American lawyer and author who claimed that world events were being controlled by three factions, the Rockefeller family, the "Bolshevik-Zionist axis," and the Kremlin.
Mae Brussell (1922 - 1988)	American conspiracy theorist and radio personality, focusing on the assassination of John F. Kennedy.
William Guy Carr (1895 - 1959)	Canadian naval officer and author responsible for creating the American Illuminati demonology.[2]
Jack T. Chick (born 1924)	American publisher of comic book-style tracts, known as Chick Tracts, often depicting conspiracy theories featuring Satan, the Catholic Church, Communists, Muslims, rock musicians, scientists, and politicians, as well as other groups and subjects behind popular entertainment, role-playing games, and other perceived ills of modern culture.
Jerome Corsi (born 1946)	American author who theorizes about a potential North American Union,[3] advances 9/11 conspiracy theories,[4] believes in abiogenic petroleum origin and theorizes a conspiracy between oil companies and politicians to maintain pricing.[5]
Francis E. Dec (1926 - 1996)	Disbarred American lawyer from Hempstead, New York who is today known for having in the 1970s and 80s mass-mailed various rambling flyers and rants to randomly selected addressees all across the US, in which he purported to warn the public of an omnipotent machine-entity he referred to as the "World-wide Mad Deadly Communist Gangster Computer God."
James Shelby Downard (1913 - 1998)	American author who perceived occult symbolism, twilight language and synchronicity behind historical events in the 20th century.
David Emory (born 1949)	American talk radio host who asserts that an obscure, sinister, organization called the "Underground Reich" maintains the interests of the German industry, banking and finance, which survived World War II as a major part of the global capital elite. Based in the San Francisco Bay area.
Myron C. Fagan (1887 - 1972)	American writer, producer and director for film and theatre, who wrote and produced plays and pamphlets claiming the United Nations was a Communist front for one world government.[6]
Anatoliy Golitsyn (1926 - ?)	Soviet KGB defector who provided the CIA with false information and later wrote a book claiming that the fall of communism in Eastern Europe was a hoax.
Des Griffin	American author espousing a right-wing Christian view of global conspiracies and the New World Order.
G. Edward Griffin
Zaid Hamid
Patrick Haseldine (born 1942)	Former British diplomat, dismissed in 1989 by the Thatcher government[7] for writing a letter to The Guardian on 7 December 1988. His subsequent conspiracy theory seeking to incriminate apartheid South Africa over the 21 December 1988 Lockerbie bombing alleged that the aircraft was downed in order to assassinate Bernt Carlsson, UN Commissioner for Namibia.
Stanley Hilton	American lawyer who filed a subsequently dismissed $7-billion lawsuit against Bush Administration officials, accusing them of complicity in the September 11, 2001 attacks.
Richard Hoagland (born 1945)	American author whose books claim that advanced civilizations exist or once existed on the Moon and Mars, and NASA and the United States government are conspiring to keep this secret. Latest theories of this nature include the Jovian satellite Europa and what he claims killed the Columbia shuttle astronauts.
Michael A. Hoffman II (born 1954)	American historian who posits conspiracies about Jewish control of the United States and about the Holocaust.
Leonard G. Horowitz	American author, former dentist, who claimed in a book, Emerging Viruses, that HIV/AIDS was engineered by the U.S. as a biological warfare agent. Reportedly inspired Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan to caution against vaccinating children; mentioned by Rev. Jeremiah Wright in support of Wright's similar claim.
Kent E. Hovind (born 1953)	Young-earth creationist speaking on Creation, Evolution, and Dinosaurs.
David Icke (born 1952)	British writer and public speaker who claims that the world is ruled by a secret group called the "Global Elite" or "Illuminati," which he has linked to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[8][9]
Alex Jones (born 1974)	Syndicated radio host, film maker and web site publisher. Has been referred to as a "conspiracy theorist." Considers himself a libertarian and a patriot. Based in Austin, TX.
Timothy F. LaHaye (born 1926)	Joint author, with Jerry F. Jenkins, of the Left Behind novels.
Lyndon H. LaRouche Jr. (born 1922)	American activist and self-styled politician whose publications rail against what he calls "Synarchism" and who, in spite of having received a felony conviction for mail fraud, has repeatedly sought election—thus far, without success—to the office of President of the United States.
Rauni-Leena Luukanen-Kilde
William S. Lind	Paleoconservative activist and director of the Center for Cultural Conservatism at the Free Congress Foundation, Lind claims "Political Correctness is cultural Marxism."[10] and that scholars associated with the Institute for Social Research at University of Frankfurt am Main in Germany (the [11]) determined to overthrow Western Christian culture and have turned college campuses into "small ivy covered North Koreas, where the student or faculty member who dares to cross any of the lines set up by the gender feminist or the homosexual-rights activists, or the local black or Hispanic group, or any of the other sainted "victims" groups that PC revolves around, quickly find themselves in judicial trouble."[12] Lind's theory has been embraced by conservative commentator Patrick Buchanan[13] and by Michael Minnicino who is associated with Lyndon Larouche's Schiller Institute.[14]
Jim Marrs (born 1943)	American author who has written such books as: Rule by Secrecy, Alien Agenda, Crossfire, and The Rise of the Fourth Reich.
Texe Marrs
Ken McCarthy (born 1959)	Owns and operates BrasscheckTV via his AMACORD consulting business. Massive provider of conspiracy content, videos and alternative news stories. Site named for Upton Sinclair's book The Brass Check, an early analysis of the significance and impact of ownership patterns of US news sources[15]
Thierry Meyssan
Gary North
Roberto Pinotti
Jeff Rense	American radio show host and web site producer, mostly UFO and 9-11 conspiracy theories.
Lew Rockwell
Christopher W. Ruddy
Ben Stein (born 1944)	former Nixon speechwriter turned actor/game show host, whose movie, "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed" alleges a vast conspiracy among modern scientists to squelch evidence for creationism in order to promote atheism.
Oliver Stone	Academy award-winning film director and screenwriter
John A. Stormer
Webster Tarpley

Any non english speaking authors on the list? 77.46.171.76 (talk) 06:28, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

o.k. few have been added... 77.46.171.76 (talk) 01:22, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Ontology

After reading Hakim Bey's essay The Ontological Status of Conspiracy Theory, I am wondering how best to incorporate some of his analysis. Any thoughts? --Loremaster (talk) 14:14, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

who is he? 77.46.171.76 (talk) 21:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Hakim Bey is the pen name of Peter Lamborn Wilson, an American political writer, essayist, and poet. --Loremaster (talk) 00:46, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

honestly, i find that essay very hard to read, and i think it is really hard to sum up in a sentence his main point.  :( 77.46.171.76 (talk) 14:54, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I know. That's what I'm working on. ;) --Loremaster (talk) 16:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus over lead?

Does this version of the lead have the support of most contributors to, and/or watchers of, the Conspiracy theory article?

“

Conspiracy theory is a term that originally was a neutral descriptor for any conspiracy claim. However, it has come almost exclusively to refer to any fringe theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by conspirators of almost superhuman power and cunning.[16][17] Conspiracy theories are viewed with skepticism and often ridiculed because they are seldom supported by any conclusive evidence and contrast with institutional analysis, which focuses on people's collective behavior in publicly known institutions, as recorded in scholarly material and mainstream media reports, to explain historical or current events, rather than speculating on the motives and actions of secretive coalitions of individuals.[18] The term is therefore often used dismissively in an attempt to characterize a belief as outlandishly false and held by a person judged to be a crank or a group confined to the lunatic fringe. Such characterization is often the subject of dispute due to its possible unfairness and inaccuracy.[19] In the United States of the late 20th and early 21st centuries, conspiracy theories have become commonplace in mass media. This has contributed to conspiracism emerging as a cultural phenomenon and the possible replacement of democracy by conspiracy as the dominant paradigm of political action in the public mind.[20] According to historians Harry G. West and Todd Sanders, "evidence suggests that a broad cross section of Americans today…gives credence to at least some conspiracy theories."[21] Belief in conspiracy theories has therefore become a topic of interest for sociologists, psychologists and experts in folklore.

”

If not, please explain? --Loremaster (talk) 18:52, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

please present a source with each statement, and i will then comment. 89.216.142.22 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:59, 25 October 2009 (UTC).

Ibid. --Ludvikus (talk) 21:03, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

The sources for each statement can be found in the Notes section below. --Loremaster (talk) 18:09, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Neither of the two (2) sources cited specify the Page number, as WP policy provides. Please specify the exact page numbers for each source. --Ludvikus (talk) 19:12, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Which source are you refering to exactly because the first source is to a short Barkun interview for New Internationalist magazine. There are obviously no page numbers. --Loremaster (talk) 00:59, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

i think it would be nice to find additional source for the second sentence. 212.200.205.163 (talk) 10:49, 1 November 2009 (UTC)

Why? --Loremaster (talk) 23:36, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

it is a very strong statement, and needs a strong source. 212.200.205.163 (talk) 00:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

We have two sources for the statement that the term "conspiracy theory" has come almost exclusively to refer to any fringe theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by conspirators of almost superhuman power and cunning: 1) A short Barkun interview (which people can read immediately), and 2) Barkun's book which is considered by many as one of the most extensive study of conspiracy theories in America culture. Therefore, I don't see why need anything more. --Loremaster (talk) 00:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

it is basically one source -- coming from the same person. if this refers mainly to american culture, article should have a 'not a worldwide view' tag. 212.200.205.163 (talk) 01:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

One source is fine since it is strong. The specific sentence doesn't refer to American culture. Only the fourth paragraph of the lead section does. However, I'm not opposed to slightly expanding the lead to discuss how conspiracy theories are perceived around the world. --Loremaster (talk) 02:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Notes

[edit] Proven theories?

Are there any proven conspiracy (former) theories? While there are no specific conspiracy theories I fully believe I find it very hard to believe that there aren't examples of prominent people/organisations/governments having conspired to further their ambitions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnealon (talk • contribs) 02:54, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

[edit] removed byron york reference

byron york used the title "vast left wing conspiracy" as a satirical, tongue-in-cheek reference to hillary clinton's heated claim that the republican opposition to her husband's presidency represented a "vast right wing conspiracy". his book was an ordinary partisan analysis of the activist coalitions supporting the democratic party. it is not, of course about "secret cabals" and nine-foot lizards. i suspect the inclusion was a churlish move, so here's your chuckle: ha. it is now removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.212.196.48 (talk) 10:43, 4 December 2009 (UTC)