Talk:Council on the Disposition of the Tithes

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Listing of current members[edit]

I changed the order in which the members of the Council on the Disposition of the Tithes were listed. Accordingly to the organization of the LDS hierarchy, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles forms a quorum that is equal in authority to the First Presidency of the Church when the First Presidency is not fully organized according to revelation. While the office of Presiding Bishop and thus the organization of the Presiding Bishopric preceded the organization of the Quorum of the Twelve, the Presiding Bishopric acts under the direction and counsel of the Quorum of the Twelve and the First Presidency. I changed the order the members of the Council were listed accordingly to reflect seniority in the hierarchy rather than the order mentioned by the cited revelation. Jgstokes 04:11, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I believe it would be easier for readers (who often come to the article without this background knowledge that you have set out above) to see the members listed in the order they are set out in the text of the revelation. It makes comparing the text of the revelation and its current composition more intuitive and simple. We should aim to create articles that relate to their sources in as intuitive and simple a manner as possible. I believe this should be the governing principle in listing members of a body, not abstract ideas of seniority which come from sources external to the topic in question and not directly referenced in the article. -SESmith 05:35, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I'll go along with you on that. I didn't even think about that angle of things. Thanks. Never mind, then. Jgstokes 16:54, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
Just to throw another fish into the kettle, in the last General Conference, during the Church Auditing Department Report 2006, presented by Robert W. Cantwell, the Council on the Disposition of Tithes was referenced to in these exact words: (I quote them for you, but I also include the link to it so you can see the complete document. See http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-690-2,00.html) "As prescribed by revelation in section 120 of the Doctrine and Covenants, the Council on the Disposition of the Tithes authorizes the expenditure of Church funds. This council is composed of the First Presidency, the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, and the Presiding Bishopric." If that's the order they're listed in at this point in the Church's history, since that's a verifiable source, I think we ought to list them in that order. However, it's all right to leave it like this. Just something else to think about. Jgstokes 23:42, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Interesting—however, like this WP article, Cantwell refers explicitly to D&C section 120. When he listed the constituent bodies, he changed the order of how they are set out in the document he was referring to. Using this would be a secondary source. Why not stick with the primary source that the secondary source itself refers to? I don't really think the order of listing the members is important apart from helping people match up sources with the list. -SESmith 00:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
I wouldn't mind doing so, however, since there is another source, I will add a note in the article about the hierarchical angle of things, which links to this other source. If that's a problem, it can be reedited later. --Jgstokes 22:45, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I really don't think it's worth mentioning in the article that sometimes people (an auditor, in this case) list the membership in a different order. This is not sufficient evidence of a "revelation" that has in any way changed what Smith's original revelation says. The primary duties of the Presiding Bishopric of the church involve temporal affairs (money, buildings, etc.) so for all we know the members of the presiding bishopric may be far more actively in control of the council than the members of the 12 are. In the final analysis, I just don't see how this is a live issue to mention in the article at all, nor do I see why it needs to justify changing the order of listing of the members to conform with an abstract concept of church heirarchy that is frankly not relevant to the issues in the article. We are merely creating a list that matches up to the composition of the council as set down in Smith's writings. Let's make it easy for the reader, not harder. -SESmith 00:55, 14 May 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate the discussion as to what order the members of the CODT should be listed. One thing mentioned several times in the disussion is that listing members of the Quorum of the Tweleve as senior to the Presiding Bishopric is just an abstract view that has no basis or is somehow not accurate. Given that 15 men (obviously when there are no vacancies in the Tweleve) are sustained by members of the LDS Church as prophets, seers and revelators, it does not lend itself to being an abstract or dervied view. In connection with providing understanding to readers of the source information, where the LDS Church purports to be built on the foundation of prophets and apostles, as was the original church established in the meridian of time by the Lord himself, it would seem reasonable to help reinforce that view by appropriately listing the 18 members accordingly. The Presiding Bishopric would certainly never view themselves as senior to the Twelve, even given their overall stewardship for temporal affairs. As noted previously, while some aspects of their assignment may engage them in greater detailed oversight of their departments, a great portion of the Church departments do not report to or through the Presiding Bishopric. The Twelve are just as involved - if not more - in the council, which of course is presided over by the First Presidency, than the Bishopric. There are essentially no circumstances when listing these 18 men in order of seniority would not have the 3 members of the Bishopric at the end. Again, while I appreciate the concern over potential confusion when referencing D&C 120, I don't see that as a major concern and as another reader suggested, if it was felt to be so, then it could easily be addressed in the article. This got longer than I expected, but thanks for the opportunity to share these thoughts. ChristensenMJ (talk) 19:02, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

As a newcomer to the discussion, I would object to the bishopric being placed after the 12 apostles. I think the fact that the bishopric is listed first in the original document establishing the group is definitive. All the reasons being provided for other order are completely subjective and if not subjective than WP:OR. Incidentally, I would also strongly question the contention that the 12 are more involved in the Council than the Bishopric. Temporal affairs is pretty much all the Presiding Bishopric do, whereas the Apostles are involved in many other aspects of church administration. The Presiding Bishop is clearly the First Presidency's "point man" on temporal affairs, in my opinion. Good Ol’factory (talk) 21:49, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the excellent expression of feelings. The only thing I would raise some question on is the assertion that the Presiding Bishopric is more involved in the CODT than the Twelve. While it is true that the Bishopric has responsibilty for temporal affairs, it is not as widespread as it might seem. Some of the largest departments and works that go on in the Church have essentially no direct interaction from the Bishopric, with members of the Seventy and Twelve directly involved in those efforts. So, while they are "the point men" on those things in which delegation occurs to them, things from printing and food services of course, but also buildings. Many other things are not directly in their stewardship. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ChristensenMJ (talkcontribs) 23:10, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Quorum?[edit]

Is it correct to refer to this council as a quorum?Isaac Crumm 07:23, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

I've wondered about that and am not sure. I would think no—it's more of a council (hence the name). Quorums are generally a gathering of priesthood holders who hold the same priesthood office. Quorums also generally have a president at the head. Although these rules can presumably be bent, as when Patriarchs meet with the high priests quorum. I would be open to not calling it a quorum in the article unless someone can find a reference where it is called that (I can't). Some people would argue that a quorum and a council are the same thing (e.g., the Council of the Twelve), but I think this group is more analogous to a ward council or a stake welfare council than a quorum. What do you think? --SESmith 07:28, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
That's what I was thinking. It should be changed unless someone can find a reference.Isaac Crumm 22:43, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree. -SESmith 09:03, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
I would say it is incorrect to call it a quorum because in the revelations and in the following source, it s referred to as a council. http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-690-2,00.html. If it's good enough for the Lord, it's good enough for me. --Jgstokes 22:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

"As of" date[edit]

What is the rationale for changing the date (in "As of _______, the members of the Council are:") from May 2007 back to April 2007? I don't think the membership in the Council has changed since April, has it? If it has, we should update the name instead of retrodating the statement in the article. -SESmith 01:10, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

I did that, and I did so (I believe) because the members of the Council on the Disposition of the Tithes were listed in the latest Church Auditing Department report, which came during the April General Conference. However, come to think of it, by that rationale, I should have technically switched the date to the final part of December 2006 or the first part of January 2007. Whatever the reason was, it's not important. My question is, are we going to leave this date as-is in this article, or update the "as of" date every month? I think that may have been what was going through my head when I changed it back to April 2006. However, inasmuch as the council membership does not change, I think it's safe to leave the "as of" date as May 2007. Whatever the reason for the change I made, I'm glad you fixed it. Thanks. --Jgstokes 03:39, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I see. I think someone (or I?) originally put a date to the list because it said something like, "currently, the members are...", and that was seen as unacceptable because the reader would not know if it was up to date or not. Is there another way around the problem? -SESmith 04:17, 17 May 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure. I don't see any way to fix this without making more problems. So, I imagine, unless it's objectionable, it would be all right to leave the date as "May 2007," unless, of course, the members of the council change anytime soon, which may or may not be likely --Jgstokes 20:37, 19 May 2007 (UTC), Edited by the above on 5/20/2007 at 9:15 PM

Removal of President Faust's listing as a member of this council[edit]

Friends and Fellow Editors, Because President James E. Faust, who died on August 10, 2007, cannot as a dead man be a member of a living council, I have removed his membership listing in this council. As soon as a new 2nd Counselor is called, his name can be put in President Faust's place. For now, though, I have removed him. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable 02:00, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Published records[edit]

The council did publish its financial records, at least into the 1950s. I don't know the exact date in which it stopped, but I could probably find out. Anyway, it's incorrect to state that it has never published its financial records. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:13, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Stopped in 1959, according to this article. Good Ol’factory (talk) 04:20, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

New Presiding Bishopric needs to be added.[edit]

Based on changes made to the Presiding Bishopric on March 31, 2012, this list needs to be updated. But I don't have sufficient knowledge of the templates to take care of it myself. Please help! Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 03:33, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

As you can see, I took care of this problem myself. The list is up-to-date as of March 31, 2012. Thanks. --Jgstokes-We can disagree without being disagreeable (talk) 17:37, 3 April 2012 (UTC)