Talk:Creationism

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Former good article Creationism was one of the good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
edit·history·watch·refresh Stock post message.svg To-do list for Creationism:
  • Add section on the differences/similarities/conflict between Intelligent Design and Creationism.
  • Add section on the beliefs creationists have on what the mainstream fields of science have to say on the origins of life and the universe.
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IMPORTANT - If you wish to discuss or debate the validity of creationism please do so at talk.origins or Debatepedia. This "Discussion" page is only for discussion on how to improve the Wikipedia article. Any attempts at trolling, using this page as a soapbox, or making personal attacks may be deleted at any time.
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Category:Pseudoscience[edit]

Creationism in this article is described as pseudoscience. I propose to add category:pseudoscience. Jim1138 (talk) 16:55, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

This is going the wrong way, the same regarding Creation science, the same regarding Intelligent design. You can tag one "discipline" as pseudoscience, this, is loosing credibility where it concern philosophies and systems. "Pseudoscientific" could be accurate, not "pseudoscience". Further, that bias is all over the articles. Pseudosciences are systems that have their niche. Here it is absolutely not the case. --Askedonty (talk) 17:56, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
One thing I don't believe in is unfair criticism, even for an idea that I don't believe in. We've already stated When scientific research produces empirical evidence and theoretical conclusions which contradict a literalist creationist interpretation of scripture, young Earth creationists often reject the conclusions of the research i.e. there is empirical evidence against Creationism, which suggests that it is falsifiable or at least makes testable predictions. A false theory is not pseudoscience, it's just not the case. Modern reformulations on the other hand and the political movements associated with them could be described as pseudoscience.Chemical Ace (talk) 13:36, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Darwinism v Evolution[edit]

It's important to always distinguish between 'the theory of evolution' and 'Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection'. The two are not the same thing. The theory of evolution pre-dates Darwin and is essentially regarded as 'proven fact' in scientific circles. Darwin's theory is about the mechanism of evolution not about evolution itself: there remains some debate within the scientific community about the role of natural selection . Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.12.100.34 (talk) 07:59, 17 June 2014 (UTC)

Ok. So what is your suggested edit to the page? Ckruschke (talk) 19:15, 17 June 2014 (UTC)Ckruschke

quick note on edit made to intelligent design section[edit]

It was pointed out on the Talk page of Intelligent design by folks protesting the description of ID as "pseudoscience" that the section on ID in this article doesn't describe ID as pseudoscience. However, the lead of ID does describe it that way and rightly so, as the ID article has extensive discussion of that. Per WP:SUMMARY, the section in this article should accurately reflect the Main article. So this morning, in this dif, I copied the content about pseudoscience with its refs from the lead of the ID article to the section on ID here. Quick additional note, per policy WP:PSCI, (quoting here) "The pseudoscientific view should be clearly described as such." The guideline for interpreting WP:PSCI is WP:FRINGE, and it explicitly mentions ID as pseudoscience. Anybody contesting that, needs to fight that battle at the level of the Talk page of WP:FRINGE, not here and not on the Talk page of the ID. Please note that pseudoscience topics are under Arbcom discretionary sanctions. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 10:17, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

Just did the same on the "Creation science" section. Same thing applies as above.Jytdog (talk) 05:08, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Encyclopædia Britannica win at NPOV[edit]

See https://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/142233/creationism compare and contrast with our article. Their article state the facts about Creationism the idea, our article goes on and on about pseudoscience. Is our approach better? Chemical Ace (talk) 13:35, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Our coverage here is much more in-depth, thus simply covers more of the topic. The Britannica article does talk about it being a pseudoscience just avoids the word. On a side note did you read the comment there "plants cant evolve trees flowers grass cant evolve" why do people not read up on topics before they comment? -- Moxy (talk) 14:37, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Wikipedia wins at content. A four paragraph article vs. what we have here. Yes, our approach is better. --NeilN talk to me 14:57, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
and more importantly, we are not equivalent to Britannica. I don't think Britannica has policy about WP:PSCI like we do. If you would like to change Wikipedia's policy on that matter, the place to address that is at the Talk page for WP:NPOV. Jytdog (talk) 16:11, 9 October 2014 (UTC)
Yeh. Our content is way better. I agree. Thanks for the comments Chemical Ace (talk) 03:18, 10 October 2014 (UTC)
Utter self-aggrandizing nonsense. That it is "way better" for wikipedia and its editors, I can offer no counter. That is is more reliable in its content, of better overall quality, and therefore more useful in the longterm to an uninformed individual seeking introductory knowledge… no. One needs faith, to be a wikipedian, and an avid user. Those best informed in subject areas most often lack that faith. The silly, and deeply technically flawed Nature "study" aside, the only significant group of individuals believing in the "way better"-ness of wikipedia, are wikipedians — though I will acknowledge peaks in quality in some specialty areas, amidst the broad swaths of lowlands. (A retired Prof) 71.239.87.100 (talk) 16:46, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
I agree about this being nonsense, especially since Wikipedia and Encyclopedia Britannica are not in official or unofficial competition in the first place, and that all this babble about competing/winning against Encyclopedia Britannica distracts editors from improving the articles.--Mr Fink (talk) 16:56, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Doctrine of Creation[edit]

I came here looking for guidance on what the standard Christian doctrine of creation is, noting that "Doctrine of Creation" redirects here; but what this seems to be is a skeptical article on the debate between evolutionists and young earth creationists, which is a fringe debate as far as the majority of Christians appear to be concerned. Can someone please direct me to the right place? --Bermicourt (talk) 11:06, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

can you explain more about what you were looking for, and from what theological perspective? Jytdog (talk) 11:47, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Hmm, Acceptance of evolution by religious groups maybe have some of what you want? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 11:54, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
This article is a critical analysis of the relevant ideology behind Creation. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as standard Christian doctrine, because there is no earthly, central regulating authority. The best approximation for what you are seeking is probably Genesis creation narrative. Plasmic Physics (talk) 12:02, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
I'm interested in understanding what the orthodox/standard, biblically-based "doctrine of creation" is held by mainstream Christian scholars and churches. I'm not interested in the creation-evolution debate, which looms large in this and other articles. --Bermicourt (talk) 12:15, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
thanks for replying. i'm sorry but there is no such thing as a single "Christian" view on much of anything :) and what is "mainstream" in some strands of the tradition is non-mainstream in others. Your reference to "biblically-based" gives some hint about where you are coming from - some strands of the Christian tradition are more "biblically based" than others. Can you be more specific about the strand of the Christian tradition you are interested in? Thanks Jytdog (talk) 12:19, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I'm aware of the differences, but there is a broad consensus in many areas. For example, in the case of creation, the Roman Catholic Church has a single doctrine. And, although they structure it in different ways, the (non-RC) scholars I've looked at so far have a similar take on the scriptural view e.g. common themes that keep coming up that that creation is: ex nihilo, Trinitarian, described as "very good" and ongoing or continuous; that mankind was created in the "image of God" (but is not God) and is given "dominion" over the earth, etc, etc. Of course there are second-order implications, some being relevant to modern discussions such as the ecological crisis and respective roles of science and religion, but they are covered already. I was looking for the first-order framework. And by mainstream, I guess I mean churches that use the Nicene creed, which I think are e.g. Roman Catholic, Anglican, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian, Pentecostal, Orthodox, etc... The Genesis creation narrative isn't what I'm looking for because its focus is too narrow. Scholars assess the scriptural view of creation based on texts from all over the Bible, not just Genesis. HTH. Bermicourt (talk) 12:53, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
thanks for replying! no criticism intended, just trying to figure out where you (in particular) were coming from. That stuff is covered ~somewhat~ in this article in Creationism#Theistic_evolution and Creationism#Christianity. My sense is that it would be very hard to write and importantly, very very hard to maintain, a Doctrine of Creation article reflecting only the mainline churches' theologies.... I wonder if such an article ever existed.Jytdog (talk) 13:04, 22 October 2014 (UTC)
No criticism assumed. The subject should be covered in your second link, Creationism#Christianity, but every paragraph mentions "evolution"; it's all about the creation-evolution debate, so much so that I wonder if this article is a fork of Creation–evolution controversy. The RC doctrine of creation definitely leaves room for evolution and so do the other sources I have seen. In fact, as far as I can tell from the sources, the timescale of creation (which seems to be at the heart of the current debate) was never part of the DOC in the church and is certainly not in the RC catechism. I don't think a new article on Doctrine of Creation would be too difficult provided it sticks strictly to a) what the church(es)' official doctrine says and b) what leading scholars understand the bible's doctrine of creation to say, and avoids getting into whether others believe it or not, which is a separate issue. Certainly a basic summary of the doctrine of creation as understood by the Church and scholars would at least help students and other interested parties. I can give it a go, but maybe not right now! Bermicourt (talk) 14:08, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

creation myths[edit]

this edit called my attention to the use of "creation myth' in the article. it was not evenly used, so in this series of edits, i made it consistent. happy to discuss. Jytdog (talk) 11:41, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

You have been honest enough to draw attention to your edits. However, these change all instances of "creation narrative" and "creation verses" to "creation myth" which I submit is a WP:POV. Yes, myth doesn't necessarily mean fiction, but most people now take it that way. It is fair enough for the article to make some statement that there is a large number of folk who don't believe any of the creation narratives literally and see them as myths, but it seems unreasonable to refer to them as myths at every opportunity. After all, both "narrative" and "verses" are neutral - they don't imply belief or unbelief. My recommendation is that we use the neutral terms where possible. --Bermicourt (talk) 11:18, 14 December 2014 (UTC)
that's the term used in scholarly discourse, and it is used throughout WP, when discussing Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindi, indigenous, whatever, stories about how the world came to be. It is NPOV, and to have only Christian's creation myth be treated differently is POV. Why should the Christian version be treated differently? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 15:41, 14 December 2014 (UTC)