Talk:Cretaceous–Paleogene boundary

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Page title[edit]

The KT boundary is either a) a moment in time straddling the Mesozoic and Cenozoic eras; b) a sequence of rocks covering that period. The content of this article is rather loosely defined, but it isn't really either of those. OM, can you explain what you mean by this comment: "The extinction is separated from geological activity."? Would a better title perhaps be "Geological signature of the K-T boundary", or similar? Badgerpatrol 23:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

But isn't the KT boundary a geological signature? The reasons I want to rename it is that if you look back at the links in other articles, it's getting confusing what article is referring to what. I think we should keep K-T boundary a strictly (or close to strictly) geological article, whereas the K-T extinction event more biological, with some overlap. I don't know what would be a good title--Geological events at the K-T boundary? Not sure. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 23:13, 10 September 2007 (UTC) is and it isn't. Technically the "KT boundary" is a specific junction between sedimentary layers at a section near El Kef, a town in Tunisia [1], and by analogy similar sections worldwide. More abstractly, it's a moment in time. I think the reason I have a bit of a problem with the title is that the actual article content mixes up process and observation- i.e. geological causation (impacts, sea level change) with geological observations (craters, shocked quartz, coarsening-upward sequences etc.) and doesn't necessarily match the page name. Reading the title, my expectation would be to find a discussion of the sedimentology and stratigraphy of the boundary layers, locations of sections worldwide, a discussion of the stratotype and geochronology...i.e. an altogether dryer and more boring article about geology.... The stuff about impacts etc could be better placed elsewhere (albeit the impact signature should definitely be mentioned extensively as a very important feature of boundary sediments). I suggest we re-write the article to suit the title in fact, rather than changing the title to suit the article- what do you think? Badgerpatrol 00:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Suggestions for improving this and the other article[edit]

At present this article reads a bit odd to the general reader.

  1. Intro
    1. For us non-geologists, what is a "geological signature"?
    2. "a thin band" — a thin band of what?
    3. "The boundary marks the end of the Mesozoic Era, and the beginning of the Cenozoic Era." This sentence needs something more to turn it into a geol statement rather than a chron statement.
  2. Sections — apart from the footnotes appendix, the article has only one section, albeit with subsections. A substantial article with only one section is kinda weird. Could its subsections be raised to top-level sections?
  3. From the 4th paragraph of the Alvarez subsection, the article starts talking about "the extinction" as though the reader already knows about it. Before referring to the extinction in this way, the article needs to explain in summary what the extinction is. And it should link to the full article on the extinction event.
  4. A lot of the content is duplicated in the Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event article. It is poor organisation to duplicate info in detail in 2 related articles. The extinction event article should concentrate on the extinction and cover the geol info in summarised form only. Likewise this article should concentrate on the geol (as it does) but cover the extinction in summary, as per previous point. Nurg (talk) 09:52, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
This material was cut out of Cretaceous–Tertiary extinction event which explains the duplication and some of the other issues you raise. Really, this is talking about extinction mechanisms which are co-incident with, but not the same as, the KT boundary. It would perhaps be better to talk about the actual geology (available sections, sedimentology, stratigraphy, preservation, reworking). The KT boundary (as I state above) is either a) a moment in time (notable only for the extinction and thus covered in that article) or b) a collection of rock strata (boundary clay, fireball layer, etc etc) exposed either sub-aerially or in found in deep sea cores. Currently, the article doesn't really talk about either of those. Before the inevitable ruckus kicks off with anyone, that's not a criticism, it's an observation. Badgerpatrol (talk) 12:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Fixed error[edit]

I've slightly altered the formatting of the initial quoted date in the first line because it seemed to be giving me a recurrent error (see page hist) that I couldn't fix. If anybody knows the problem, please change it back to however you wish. Badgerpatrol (talk) 12:28, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

In Our Time programme about this[edit]

The BBC programme In Our Time presented by Melvyn Bragg has an episode which may be about this subject (if not moving this note to the appropriate talk page earns cookies). You can add it to "External links" by pasting {{In Our Time|The KT Boundary|p003k9d0|K-T_Boundary}}.

James F. (talk) 21:28, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Article name[edit]

Since the old name of Cretaceous-Tertiary extinction event has been changed to the Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event, or K-Pg, shouldn't this article be renamed to the K-Pg boundary? I know that K-Pg boundary redirects here, but the names should be consistent with the extinction event. I have no clue how to rename an article over a redirect, so I'm hoping that someone watching this article and knows how to do it can make it happen. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 21:55, 28 April 2012 (UTC)

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per RockMagnetist and WP:AT's note on consistency. -- JHunterJ (talk) 10:56, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

K–T boundaryCretaceous–Paleogene boundary – Since K-T boundary and K-T extinction event have been changed to K-Pg because Tertiary (T) has been deprecated. We should rename this article. We will also need to change all of the redirects, so if someone could help me out on how to do it, I'd appreciate it. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 01:48, 10 May 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose WP:JARGON, WP:UCN. The other article seems to have been moved based on Jargon usage, not common usage in WP:RS. WP:RS does not say that RSes are restricted to one particular field's research journals. (talk) 09:29, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment: I, too, am not entirely convinced that common usage has caught up with geologists for this event. Powers T 15:45, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment: Please see Cretaceous–Paleogene extinction event. It should be consistent. And it doesn't matter that it's not the popular wording, it's what is used by the officials who name these things. We have redirects for those individuals that lack any education in this matter. Tertiary is gone from usage, because it was based on pre-Darwin ideas about the earth. It's silly. WP:Jargon has no applicability here, it's like not having Pluto as a planet. Oh wait it isn't a planet anymore. Again, any logic here should be used at the sister article, because K-Pg is now used everywhere. This article is misnamed if the event itself is called the K-Pg extinction event. This is the boundary layer. I would suggest about 10 seconds of research over there. And yeah, the International Commission on Stratigraphy gets to make that decision. Based on the logical fallacies above, then we don't rename species here, because no one has a right to do that until the uneducated masses of Wikipedia readers get on board. Or companies that change names won't be reflected here. This should be a no-brainer. But what can I expect from Wikipedia? SkepticalRaptor (talk) 19:17, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
    • Making lots of friends today, I see? WP:COMMONNAME is a well-established guideline and should be followed without good reason not to. We try to put articles under the title by which people know them, not the titles that any official organization would like them to be called. Powers T 19:27, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
      • This isn't Facebook, so no, don't give a shit about making friends here. However, again with the logical fallacies. You're using a strawman argument rather than discussing the main article, the K-Pg extinction event which changed the name. If you have a tiny bit of energy, go read the same lame arguments over there, which failed. However, my suggestion is that if you think you're right, then you better go request a name change of the main article. Because we want Wikipedia to be the worst piece of science ever. I'll await a non-fallacious argument from you. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 19:46, 10 May 2012 (UTC)
        • Civility is a pillar around here, Mr. Raptor. I suggest you start adhering to it. Powers T 13:26, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
    • WP:OFFICIALNAME -- official names are weighted less than common names. (talk) 05:01, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support The people invoking WP:COMMONNAME don't seem to have read the discussion for moving Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction event. I'll transcribe the clinching argument here:

A closer look at WP:COMMONNAME reveals that "more weight should be given to the name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change." Note the word "reliable". A quick search of articles since 2004 on Google Scholar strongly supports C-Pg. Alternative names like "K-T extinction" can be redirected, so a name change is not likely to cause confusion, especially if the former name is mentioned in the first paragraph.

RockMagnetist (talk) 16:30, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
Actually reading policy isn't exactly common amongst most people who quote guidelines. Good job.SkepticalRaptor (talk) 05:22, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Although there is something in what you say, I think that common sense is needed here. First, it's a stretch to say that "K-Pg boundary" is jargon while "K-T boundary" is not. I don't think that is the intent of the policy. I grant you that the official name does not have to be the article title. But WP:OFFICIALNAMES defers to WP:COMMONNAME for deciding when to use the official name.
Although news articles are (somewhat) reliable, they are seeking a balance between what the scientists say and what they think the public can understand. And I think that balance is shifting. Several of the articles using variants of "K-T" also mention that "K-Pg" is now the official name.
I don't think it is a very important issue. Calling the article "K-T boundary" and referring to "K-Pg boundary" in boldface would be just as good. RockMagnetist (talk) 15:16, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support - per RockMagnetist. Mikenorton (talk) 23:17, 11 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support - per RockMagnetist. Paul H. (talk) 02:09, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose -- I'm a professional geologist, and this change is news to me. The proposed name change would just confuse ordinary readers. Best to mention the new work in the article, for now. --Pete Tillman (talk) 13:50, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
How specialized we scientists have become! I presume you're not denying, though, that it is now the official name. I don't see how it would cause confusion if the article is written properly. I have added a boldface reference to K-T boundary in the first sentence. That makes for redundancy with a later statement in the lead, but follows the recommendation of WP:COMMONNAME. RockMagnetist (talk) 14:49, 12 May 2012 (UTC)
Far outside, my specialty, I grant... But Cretaceous–Paleogene is an odd construction -- why not Maastrichtian - Paleogene, if we're taking it to stages? Bad choice by whoever picked this as a replacement name, in my (professional) opinion. --Pete Tillman (talk) 17:50, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
The Paleogene is now a period or system ... not a stage. Yeah, them young whipper-snappers just keep changin' things to confuse old foggies like me too :) Vsmith (talk) 02:01, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
Could you guys be be thinking of Paleocene? RockMagnetist (talk) 16:14, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
I think that, strictly speaking, the extinction defines the boundary and does not properly belong to the Cretaceous or whatever follows it ;) So Cretaceous extinction might be a misnomer, despite its popularity. RockMagnetist (talk) 04:55, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
The biggest of the "Big 5" is often called the end-Permian event, but I've never seen that applied to the K-T --Pete Tillman (talk) 17:55, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support per above ... even if I personally dislike it (why isn't Pluto still a planet ism :) Vsmith (talk) 02:01, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Support per RockMagnetist. SkepticalRaptor (talk) 05:28, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
    • As the nominator, your support is presumed. Powers T 17:48, 16 May 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment - It is sad that some people see this as a black and white issue and denigrate those who disagree. It's not a simple issue at all. For example, in a search of "Cretaceous extinction" in Google books, not one of the books on the first page of hits refers to the extinction as Cretaceous-Paleogene. Peter Ward, a specialist in the extinction and a notable popular science writer, is still referring to it as the Cretaceous Tertiary extinction in a book published in 2010. My feeling is that WP:COMMONNAME does not really decide the issue after all: the primary sources come out in favor of change, but the best secondary sources oppose the change.
Here is an amusing irony. Few of the references in this article support the rename. In the lead, the third reference is a dead link, the second (Fortey's book) does not mention the Paleogene at all, and the first links to a site in Chinese!
I think that the important issue may be consistency. Not so much with Cretaceous-Paleogene extinction event, which just got renamed, but with the statements in Tertiary and Paleogene and a few timelines used by several Geology articles. None of the latter can be changed, so it makes sense to change this article. But the references need updating!!! RockMagnetist (talk) 16:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Age of the K-Pg Boundary[edit]

This page still makes reference to 65.5 million years ago, but the International Commission on Stratigraphy has determined that the Cretaceous terminates instead at 66 million years ago ( as can be seen in this picture I'm unsure of the most delicate way to fix these references in the article. Gruekiller (talk) 07:11, 13 December 2013 (UTC)