Talk:Crowded House

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Former good article Crowded House was one of the Music good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Earlier discussions[edit]

Manually archived at Talk:Crowded House/Archive 1 by --shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 00:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Most recent Good Article review[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of a good article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 21:54, 23 February 2010 (UTC)


GA Review[edit]

This review is transcluded from Talk:Crowded House/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 01:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

A good article is— </noinclude>

  1. Well-written:
    (a) the prose is clear and concise, it respects copyright laws, and the spelling and grammar are correct; and
    (b) it complies with the manual of style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.

    Criterion 1[edit]

    Hatnote[edit]

    1. To cater for casual reader looking for Crowded House (album) not Crowded House, try a Hatnote e.g.
      This page is about the rock group, Crowded House. For their debut album, see Crowded House (album).
    Done by shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 00:03, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

    Infobox[edit]

    See relevant template.
    1. Missing parameter: Img_alt. Usually placed above Img_capt. Suggested Alt text: | Img_alt = Five men are standing close together on a stage and smiling. First male at left is bearded and has right arm raised to shoulder height. Second male has arms around shoulders of his neighbours and is partly obscured by a microphone stand. Third male has left hand raised overhead. Fourth male has arms at side and is looking to his left. Fifth male has right arm over his neighbour and left arm overhead. Last two are partly obscured by a keyboard and its stand. Behind the five men is more band equipment and the background contains considerable English text.
      Done by shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 00:03, 14 November 2009 (UTC)
    2. |Origin = Melbourne, Australia > |Origin = Melbourne, Victoria, Australia De-link common term, add State.
    3. 1985–1996;
      2006–present
      > 1985–1996, 2006–present Use a comma not semi-colon as separator. Also check Lead statement re: Originally active between 1984 and 1996, One of these is incorrect.
    4. Labels: omit dates.
    5. URL = CrowdedHouse.com > URL = www.crowdedhouse.com/. Proper syntax. As from 5 November, I'm having trouble getting around this website. As of 7 November, seems to be working well: hopefully it was only a transitory thing.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 21:00, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    6. |Past_members = Paul Hester
      Tim Finn
      Craig Hooper
      Peter Jones
      > |Past_members = Paul Hester
      Craig Hooper
      Tim Finn
      Peter Jones
      Listed chronologically from first joining band, if same chronologically then alphabetically. Hooper, an original member, put before Tim Finn who joined in 1990.

    Lead[edit]

    1. Crowded House is a rock group > Crowded House (or The Crowdies to fans) is a rock group Completeness, some casual readers may search for The Crowdies/Crowdies and wonder why they're at this article.
    2. that was formed in > formed in Brevity. Consider year of formation here for completeness.
    3. Finn is widely recognised as the primary songwriter and creative direction of the band, > Finn is widely recognised as the primary songwriter and creative director of the band,
    4. drawing members from New Zealand (himself, Tim Finn and Eddie Rayner), > drawing members from New Zealand (his brother Tim Finn, and Eddie Rayner), The article has already established that Neil is from NZ, the sentence currently has Neil drawing himself from NZ. Change also quickly identifies his brother in early part of Lead.
    5. Though the band owes its original success to the Australian live music scene, references to New Zealand people and places are included in several of their songs. Awkwardly phrased, try The band owes its original success to the Australian live music scene, though references to New Zealand people and places are included in several of their songs. Are there any such references to United States?
    6. The success of the group's third album Woodface and the general success of Crowded House and Split Enz What sort of success? I'm assuming chart or commercial success, did QE2 specifically mention Woodface in her citation? If it is not mentioned then the sentence should be modified to The general success of Crowded House and Split Enz Also this is the first mention of Split Enz, in terms of logic a casual reader would not know of its links to CH. Perhaps a comment in either the first paragraph or the first sentence of this paragraph, indicating members of SE were also in CH or that CH evolved/developed from SE is required?
    7. Originally active between 1984 and 1996, > Originally active between 1985 and 1996, Or clarify information in Infobox and Formation and beginnings (1984–1986) section.
    8. the band's notable hits from this period include What is notable about these hits? Again I'm assuming their chart performance. Some indication of chart performance would help the casual reader e.g. Top Ten hits or other applicable (and sourced) modifier.
    9. In 2007, the group reunited > In 2006, the group reunited. Or change Infobox and/or Reunion (2006–Current) section.
    10. reunited with a new drummer. >reunited with a new drummer, Sherrod. Identification of Sherrod as new drummer otherwise it maybe a Teaser.
    11. In this period, the group has released one album, Time on Earth, which reached #1 on Australia's ARIA Albums Chart.[3] > Time on Earth, was released on 29 June, which reached #1 on Australia's ARIA Album Charts.[3] More precision with sentence, opening phrase is clunky, added pipe in charts wikilink.
    12. Missing from Lead (may require a 4th paragraph with appropriate re-sorting of content):
      1. Origin of band name.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 20:57, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
      2. Any notable albums besides Woodface and Time on Earth?
      3. Reason(s) for original disbandment.
      4. Paul Hester's suicide.
      5. Reason(s) for current reunion.
    You have made some great suggestions and I have made many changes to the lead however please see AC/DC and Alice in chains these are featured articles and don't have the meaning of the band name in the lead.--Mutley (talk) 08:26, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    phew I will need some time to change all of this--Mutley (talk) 08:27, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Take your time: so you can do a good job.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 20:57, 7 November 2009 (UTC)
    Done Lead. Now, for Formation etc.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 23:01, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

    Formation and beginnings (1984–1986)[edit]

    1. The group had important connections in > The group has important connections in Tense: check other occurrences within article.
    2. Neil Finn and Paul Hester were former members of the New Zealand rock band Split Enz. > Neil Finn on vocals, guitars and piano, and Paul Hester (ex-The Cheks, Deckchairs Overboard) on drums were former members of rock band Split Enz, which formed in New Zealand and relocated to Australia. Wikilink first appearance of each band member in main text, and give instrumentation/past bands per member. Hereafter, in the main text, refer to Hester not Paul Hester. In sections where more than one Finn is discussed then Neil Finn is given in full to differentiate from Tim Finn, Liam Finn or Elroy Finn, otherwise Finn can be used. Neither wikilinked again in main text until Band Members section: reduces over-wikilinkage.
    3. Neil is the younger brother of Split Enz founding member Tim Finn. > Neil is the younger brother of Split Enz founding member Tim Finn—Tim joined Crowded House in 1990 on vocals, guitars and keyboards.
    4. Nick Seymour is the younger brother of singer-songwriter-guitarist Mark Seymour, > Nick Seymour (ex-Plays with Marionettes, Bang, The Horla) on bass guitar and backing vocals is the younger brother of singer-songwriter and guitarist Mark Seymour,
    5. Neil Finn and Paul Hester decided to form a new band during the Split Enz farewell tour Enz with a Bang. > Neil Finn and Hester decided to form a new band during the Split Enz farewell tour, Enz with a Bang, in November–December 1984. Tour names are not italics. Date of tour needed for CH pre-history. Consider de-redlinking, Enz with a Bang.
    6. The first incarnation of the band, The Mullanes, formed in Melbourne in 1985 and also included guitarist Craig Hooper, formerly of The Reels. > The Mullanes formed in Melbourne in early 1985 with Finn, Hester, Seymour and guitarist Craig Hooper (ex-The Reels), the band first performed on 11 June. Information about The Mullanes' first performance and first recording(s) should also be included here (some information appears later in the article).
    7. They secured a record contract with Capitol Records and moved to Los Angeles, at which time Hooper left the band. > They secured a record contract with Capitol Records, Hooper left the band before the remaining trio moved to Los Angeles. Timing of Hooper leaving is critical to the band's pre-history, a reliable source (RS) is needed to support this. See comments by User:Craig Hooper. According to Ian McFarlane's The Encyclopedia of Australian Rock and Pop entry on CH, Hooper was an "auxiliary member" of The Mullanes, he did not travel to Los Angeles where The Mullanes were later renamed as Crowded House.<ref name="McF">{{cite encyclopedia|last=McFarlane|first=Ian|authorlink=Ian McFarlane|encyclopedia=[[Encyclopedia of Australian Rock and Pop]]|title=Encyclopedia entry for 'Crowded House'|url=http://web.archive.org/web/20040406102221/www.whammo.com.au/encyclopedia.asp?articleid=237|accessdate=2 November 2009|year=1999|publisher=[[Allen & Unwin]]|location=[[St Leonards, New South Wales|St Leonards, NSW]]|isbn=1865080721}}</ref> Likewise, Ed Nimmervoll's website, HowlSpace, has a CH entry which also supports this proposed change.<ref name="Howl">{{cite web|url=http://www.howlspace.com.au/en/crowdedhouse/crowdedhouse.htm|title=Crowded House|work=Howlspace|last=Nimmervoll|first=Ed|authorlink=Ed Nimmervoll|publisher=White Room Electronic Publishing Pty Ltd|accessdate=2 November 2009}}</ref> The time-line for when Hooper left the band needs to be sorted out: it currently appears to be incorrect.
    8. At the label's behest, the band changed its name to "Crowded House," which alluded to the cramped quarters the three members shared at an apartment in North Sycamore Street in West Hollywood during the recording of the album. > At the label's behest, the band's name was changed to Crowded House, which alluded to cramped quarters at their West Hollywood shared apartment during recording of Crowded House, their eponymous debut album. No quote marks for band name, album named and linked, three members deleted (friends & others lived there too), the street name is unimportant (see criterion 3b).
    9. They also invited former Split Enz keyboard player Eddie Rayner to join, and he produced the track "Can't Carry On" for the debut self-titled album. > Former Split Enz keyboardist Eddie Rayner was asked to join, he produced the track "Can't Carry On" for the album. I'm not sure whether Rayner was asked to join as a full band member or as producer: this may need further clarification.
    10. He initially joined them on tour in 1988 on keyboards, but had to leave for family reasons before he could be made a full member. > Rayner toured with the band in 1988 but was unable to become a full member due to family reasons. This sentence could also be combined with previous sentence, e.g. Former Split Enz keyboardist Eddie Rayner was asked to join, he produced the track "Can't Carry On" for the album, in 1988 he toured with the band but was unable to become a full member due to family reasons.
    11. Crowded House was later nicknamed The Crowdies by their Australian fans.[1] > Crowded House are referred to as The Crowdies by Australian fans.[1] No italics for fan name, reworded for tense.
    Done. Now to Early albs.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 23:27, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

    Early albums (1986–1990)[edit]

    1. The band had an already-established Australasian audience waiting to see what was next for the Split Enz alumni. > With their Split Enz alumni, the band had an already-established Australasian market. Wikilink less common terms, reworded for clarity & brevity.
    2. In 1986, Crowded House participated in festival shows in Australia and New Zealand. They released their eponymous debut album, Crowded House, in June 1986. > In 1986, Crowded House participated in festival shows in Australia and New Zealand, and released Crowded House in June.
    3. The group's record label, Capitol Records, did not see any immediate promise for the band, resulting in a low-profile promotion by the label, despite the Split Enz fan base continuing to draw attention to the group.[1] > Despite the Split Enz fan base, Capitol Records did not see any immediate promise for the band, resulting in a low-profile promotion by their label.[1] Delink previously linked term, tightened expression.
    4. The album's first single, "Mean to Me" failed to chart in the US, but its moderate success introduced listeners to the group's music, Contradiction with failed to chart equated to moderate success: try moderate airplay. See also next point.
    5. and the song "Don't Dream It's Over" was released as the album's second single in December 1986. Does singles release order relate to US market? According to Australia's Kent Music Report (KMR), first five singles are: "Mean to Me" (first charted on 30 June 1986, peaked at #26), "Now We're Getting Somewhere" (6 October, #63), "Don't Dream It's Over" (1 December, #8), "World Where You Live" (23 March 1987, #43) and "Something So Strong" (8 June, #18).<ref name="Kent">{{cite book|title=[[Kent Music Report|Australian Chart Book 1970–1992]]|last=Kent|first=David|authorlink=David Kent (historian)|publisher=Australian Chart Book Ltd|location=[[St Ives, New South Wales|St Ives, NSW]]|year=1993|isbn=0646119176|accessdate=14 April 2009}} NOTE: Used for Australian Singles and Albums charting from 1974 until [[Australian Recording Industry Association|ARIA]] created their own [[ARIA Charts|charts]] in mid-1988. In 1992, Kent back calculated chart positions for 1970–1974.</ref> Earliest release order should be used not US release order, notable (e.g. Top 20) positions in Australia (use KMR and then ARIA Charts<ref name="AusCharts">{{cite web|url=http://australian-charts.com/showinterpret.asp?interpret=Crowded+House|title=Discography Crowded House|publisher=australian-charts.com|accessdate=3 November 2009}}</ref>) and New Zealand (use RIANZ Charts<ref name="NZCharts">{{cite web|url=http://charts.org.nz/showinterpret.asp?interpret=Crowded+House|title=Discography Crowded House|publisher=charts.org.nz|accessdate=3 November 2009}}</ref>) should be given: first two sections emphasised band's NZ & AUS connections but there is no specific chart information for these singles (also see criteria 2 & 3).
    6. The video for the single was mostly autobiographical, showing the houses which the band members occupied on their way to the "crowded house" that they rented in Los Angeles during their album's production.[1] > The single's video was autobiographical, showing band houses on their way to the "crowded house" in West Hollywood during album recording.[1]
    7. the first of many Crowded House awards. > one of many Crowded House awards. Pipe awards in wikilink. See also Criterion 2, point #4 below.
    8. The song has since been rerecorded by artists such as Paul Young (1991) and Sixpence None the Richer (2003). > The song was covered by Paul Young (1991) and Sixpence None the Richer (2003).
    9. In 1986, the group was also awarded Best New Group at the inaugural ARIA Music Awards.[5] > In March 1987, the group were awarded 'Best New Talent', and 'Song of the Year' and 'Best Video' for "Don't Dream It's Over", at the inaugural ARIA Music Awards.<ref name="ARIA List">{{cite web|url=http://www.ariaawards.com.au/history-by-artist.php?letter=C&artist=Crowded%20House|title=ARIA Awards 2009 : History: Winners by Artist : Crowded House|publisher=[[Australian Recording Industry Association]] (ARIA)|accessdate=3 November 2009}}</ref> Ref #5 does not clearly define the award, the year or the two additional awards. The above ref would replace current ref #19. If Alex Proyas (video director) is to be named a further ref would be required.<ref name="ARIA 1987">{{cite web|url=http://www.ariaawards.com.au/history-by-year.php?year=1987|title=ARIA Awards 2009 : History: Winners by Year : 1987|publisher=Australian Recording Industry Association (ARIA)|accessdate=3 November 2009}}</ref>
    10. In June 1987, the album finally climbed to the top of the Australian charts at #1, taking the place of Whispering Jack by John Farnham. > In June, a year after its release, Crowded House finally peaked at #1 on the Kent Music Report Album Charts, replacing Whispering Jack by John Farnham.<ref name="Kent"/> See above for Kent ref.
    11. "World Where You Live" was issued as the fourth single reaching #65 in the US Billboard Hot 100 singles chart in the late summer of 1987. The fifth and final single "Now We're Getting Somewhere" Fix ordinals of singles, see note #5 above.
    12. late summer of 1987 > September 1987 Not summer in country of origin.
    13. "Don't Dream It's Over" was later used prominently in the made-for-TV movie "The Stand," based on Stephen King's The Stand. > "Don't Dream It's Over" was used in the 1994 TV miniseries The Stand, based on Stephen King's The Stand.
    14. It is also now used in the advertisement for New Zealand Tourism Board in its "100% Pure New Zealand" worldwide promotion.[6] > It was used for a New Zealand Tourism Board advertisement in its "100% Pure New Zealand" worldwide promotion from October 2005.[6]
    15. Temple of Low Men was released to great fanfare in 1988 > Temple of Low Men was released with a promotion campaign by Capitol Records in July 1988 Re-interpreted great fanfare, which is a peacock term/jargon phrase.
    16. the single "Better Be Home Soon," which reached #42 in the US. > the single "Better Be Home Soon", which reached #42 in the US. AUS/NZ charting? (see point #5 above)
    17. the latter evolving into a fan favourite sing-along when played in concert > the latter is a fan favourite sing-along in concerts
    18. As a contrast to the debut album, the first single "Better Be Home Soon" was an acoustic song which performed moderately on the charts, though the following four singles from the album all failed to chart altogether,[1] and through the low single impact, album sales were not as successful as the debut. > The first single "Better Be Home Soon" was an acoustic song which peaked at #2 on both Australian and New Zealand charts,<ref name="AusCharts"/><ref name="NZCharts"/> though the following four singles had less chart success,[1]<ref name="AusCharts"/><ref name="NZCharts"/> and through the low single impact, album sales were less than the debut. I'm assuming international/US sales are being described here? Some indication of album charting in AUS/NZ is needed.
    19. The label quickly pulled promotion for the album yet again, Not sure what this means. Did Capitol Records reduce album promotion after the four singles didn't chart in US? How is this quickly? Did they previously pull promotion for this album? In any case, it needs clarification.
    20. from January 1989 as a tour performer, taking Eddie Rayner's place. > from January 1989 as a tour performer, replacing Rayner.
    21. In early 1989, following a short tour by the group to support their second album, Finn removed Seymour from the lineup. In 2007, he discussed this on Andrew Denton's Enough Rope, commenting that he had fired him because of artistic differences. After a month, Seymour initiated contact and the two agreed to have him return to the group.[2] > In early 1989, following a short tour to support their second album, Finn fired Seymour.[2] In July 2007, on Andrew Denton's Enough Rope, Finn said he fired Seymour because of artistic differences.[2] After a month, Seymour said he initiated contact and the two agreed on his return.[2] Consider adding According to music journalist, Ed Nimmervoll, Seymour was temporarily sacked and was blamed for Finn's writer's block.<ref name="Howl"/> before In July 2007,
    22. Following this, the group decided to take a break before re-entering the studio for their third album.[1] > The group took a break before re-entering the studio for their third album.[1] Brevity.

    Done. Next.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 09:47, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

    The early nineties (1991–1994)[edit]

    1. {{Main|Woodface|Together Alone}} > {{Main|Tim Finn|Woodface|Together Alone}}
    2. After the Temple of Low Men Canadian tour, the group decided to take a break and Neil began writing some songs with his brother Tim Finn for an album they were considering to release under the name Finn. > After the 1989 Canadian tour supporting Temple of Low Men, Crowded House took a break, Neil Finn began songwriting with Tim, his brother, for a proposed album titled Finn.
    3. The sessions yielded enough songs for an album and both brothers were happy with the result, but Neil was also faced with the task of writing a third Crowded House album. After recording with Seymour and Hester, the record company rejected most of the songs recorded for this album, Neil asked his brother if they could use some of the Finn songs for the next album. Tim agreed on the proviso that he be made a member, though in some interviews, he indicated that this was meant as a joke. Neil took this literally and the group with Tim as a newly appointed member, returned to the studio.[1] > The sessions yielded enough songs for an album and they were happy with the result, Neil began songwriting for a third Crowded House album.[1] After recording tracks as Crowded House with Hester and Seymour, the record company rejected most of them, so Neil asked Tim if they could use Finn songs for Crowded House.[1] Tim jokingly agreed on the proviso that he become a member, Neil took this literally and with Tim newly joined, the band returned to the studio.[1]
    4. The album was released in July 1991 and featured seven songs written by Tim and Neil Finn. > It was released in July 1991 and featured eight tracks co-written by Neil and Tim. The 8 tracks: 1, 2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10 & 14. This point needs to be checked by someone else in case I have miscounted/incorrectly ascribed songwriting credits.
    5. Most of the songs written jointly featured the brothers performing harmonised vocals except the sombre "All I Ask". This song was performed solo by Tim and was later featured on AIDS awareness commercials in Australia.[1] > These tracks featured the Finns harmonising on lead vocals except the sombre "All I Ask" with Tim on lead, which was later used on AIDS awareness commercials in Australia.[1] Current phrase, performed solo, implies that Tim was on all instrumentation/vocals.
    6. The other tracks were primarily Neil's compositions, with the exception of the exuberant Hester-written song "Italian Plastic", which became a crowd favorite at live concerts. > Five tracks were Neil's compositions, and two were by Hester, "I'm Still Here" and the exuberant "Italian Plastic", which became a crowd favorite at live concerts. Check these facts before changing (see Criterion 2).
    7. "Chocolate Cake" was released as the first single, and it sealed the fate of the band in America. The song was a humorous comment on American excesses. It was not taken well by critics or the public in the country and failed to achieve a position on the United States' Billboard 200 singles chart. The album's second single, "Fall at Your Feet" proved more successful in the U.S., but it still only reached #75.[1] > "Chocolate Cake" was released in June as the first single, it was a humorous comment on US excesses but was not taken well by critics or the public there. It failed to reach the top 200 on Billboard's singles chart. The album's second single, "Fall at Your Feet" had greater US chart success, peaking at #75.[1] Note: Billboard 200 wikilinks to the albums chart. How did these singles perform in AUS/NZ? Did "Chocolate Cake" reach #2 on the US component Alternative Songs (formerly Modern Rock Tracks) chart? (see Billboard "Chocoalte Cake" entry) This contradicts the phrase not taken well by.... Currently the article declares that the song was universally under-appreciated in US. Further work needed here.
    8. The album sold well in the UK and Europe, in contrast to its limited American success. > The album sold well in the UK and Europe, in contrast to its limited US success. Consistency. See also Criterion 2.
    9. The immense success of this album particularly in the UK prompted the Queen in June 1993 to bestow the OBE upon Tim and Neil for their contribution to the music of New Zealand. > The success of Woodface prompted the New Zealand Government, in June 1993, to recommend to the Queen to bestow an OBE upon Tim and Neil for their contribution to the music of New Zealand. When New Zealand used the Royal Honour System the government of the day would advise their Governor-General to provide the Queen with a Queen's Birthday Honours List (see History of Royal Honours). QE2, herself, did not make up the list and so could not be prompted by the success or otherwise of an album. This point needs to be nailed, if Woodface is not mentioned in the citation it should not be included in the Lead nor in this section. If the citation/honour cannot be found in a RS then the whole reference to an OBE could be struck off. See also Criterion 2.
    10. The band was at the pinnacle of its creative output, Peacock terms: reword or cite author.
    11. and the songs "Weather with You" and "Fall at Your Feet" became signature songs for the band. > and "Weather with You" and "Fall at Your Feet" became signature songs for them. Wikilink uncommon phrase, tighten sentence.
    12. During the first supporting tour for Woodface, Tim Finn was asked to leave part of the way through the UK leg (which was projected as the final leg but the success of the album dictated more dates be added). > Tim was fired from Crowded House during the support tour for Woodface in late 1991, part-way through the UK leg—projected as the final leg but album success dictated more dates to be added. Note: a space is required before beginning next sentence. Why was Finn asked to leave?
    13. Mark Hart was recalled to play keyboards for the remaining dates, after which he was inducted as a permanent member of the band. > Hart was recalled on keyboards for remaining tour dates, then he became a permanent band member. Brevity.
    14. while excerpts were released as B-sides for the album's singles in other countries.[7][unreliable source?] > while excerpts were released as B-sides for the album's singles in other countries. Delete or RS. If RS then fix pipe.
    15. (In 2007, Jimmy Buffett covered "Weather with You", making it the semi-title track for his album Take the Weather with You.) > In 2007, Jimmy Buffett covered "Weather with You", for his album Take the Weather with You. Removed brackets & a redundant phrase, italicised album title.
    16. For their next album, Together Alone, Crowded House recruited New Zealand based Martin Glover (known as "Youth") to produce. > For their next album, Together Alone, Crowded House used New Zealand-based producer Martin Glover (aka Youth). Fix wikilink, tighten sentence.
    17. The sessions were recorded at Karekare Beach, New Zealand. The opening song of the album is a jam session by the band that was then named "Karekare" after the beach. > Recording sessions were at Karekare Beach, New Zealand, which gave its name, to the opening track—a jam session—"Karekare". Brevity, check whether track is titled "Kare Kare".
    18. The album sold well internationally upon release in October 1993 on the strength of lead single "Distant Sun" and its followup "Private Universe". > After its release in October 1993, it sold well internationally on the strength of lead single "Distant Sun" and followup "Private Universe". Brevity. See also Criterion 2.
    19. The song "Locked Out" was the album's first single in the US, receiving a modest amount of exposure on MTV and VH1, partly due to its inclusion on the soundtrack for 1994 US film Reality Bites. The song was bundled with The Knack's only hit "My Sharona" as a promotional jukebox single, as both appeared on the Reality Bites soundtrack.[1] > "Locked Out" was the album's first US single, receiving airplay on MTV and VH1, due to its inclusion on the 1994 film Reality Bites's soundtrack, it was bundled with The Knack's hit "My Sharona" (from same soundtrack) as a promotional jukebox single.[1]

    Done next.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 22:35, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

    Saying farewell (1994–1996)[edit]

    1. {{Main|Recurring Dream|Farewell to the World|Finn (album)}} > {{Main|Finn (album)|Recurring Dream|Farewell to the World}} Reflects order in this section.
    2. The band toured Europe and had begun a series of dates in the United States when drummer Paul Hester left the band, requesting more time with his family. After the tour, he decided to revive work on the Finn Brothers album Finn with his brother Tim. > Crowded House toured Europe and had begun their US tour when Hester left the band in May 1984, requiring more time with his family.
    3. Although they finished the tour with session drummer Peter Jones, Finn decided it was time to bring the group to an end. After the tour, he decided to revive work on the Finn Brothers album Finn with his brother Tim. > The tour was finished with session drummer Peter Jones (from Melbourne, ex-Harem Scarem, Vince Jones, Kate Ceberano's Septet),<ref name="McF"/> then Finn decided to disband the group and revived work on the Finn Brothers album Finn with Tim. More details on Peter Jones, McF ref is above, and combined sentences.
    4. Following this, Finn set his sights on beginning a solo career. The band officially dissolved in June 1996 in a press conference held by Neil Finn. During this press conference Neil also announced plans to release a Crowded House greatest hits album featuring four songs from each album and three songs intended for the group's cancelled fifth studio album.[1] > Finn set his sights on beginning a solo career and officially dissolved the band in June 1996 at a press conference, where Finn announced the release of Crowded House's greatest hits album, Recurring Dream, featuring four songs from each album and three new songs intended for the group's cancelled fifth studio album.[1]
    5. This career-spanning collection of greatest hits and a few new songs was released in the same month as its announcement. Delete entire sentence as redundant.
    6. When released, it went straight to #1 on the Australian and UK record charts. > The album debuted at #1 in Australia and New Zealand in July,<ref name="AusCharts"/><ref name="NZCharts"/> #1 in UK. Needs ref for UK charting.
    7. By this time, their success in the UK was comparable to their success in Australia with some of the singles making it to a higher chart placing. Awkwardly worded and, (currently) without AUS vs UK chart positions provided, this is unjustified and original research (OR)? Either re-word, provide chart information or (my suggestion) delete this sentence.
    8. Early copies of the album came with a second CD of live material that captured a few moments of the band's distinct live presence, with varying locations from England, New Zealand, Australia, and the United States. > Early copies of the album included a second CD of live performances from UK, New Zealand, Australia and US. Brevity.
    9. The comedic aspect of the banter between songs and spontaneity is displayed on this offering. > Comedic banter between songs and the band's spontaneity is displayed. Could be added to previous sentence. Needs ref or becomes OR.
    10. Though no longer being credited as a band member, founding member Paul Hester returned to the skins for the Crowded House greatest hits collection to record the album's three new songs. > Hester returned on drums for the compilation and was recorded on the album's three new songs. Also ref.
    11. Released as singles, these included the funky "Instinct", the Beatlesque "Not the Girl You Think You Are" and the optimistic anthem "Everything Is Good for You", which featured backing vocals from Pearl Jam's Eddie Vedder. ♠ > Released as singles, these were the funky "Instinct" (#17 in New Zealand),<ref name="NZCharts"/> the Beatlesque "Not the Girl You Think You Are" and the optimistic anthem "Everything Is Good for You" (#10 in Australia),<ref name="AusCharts"/> which featured backing vocals from Pearl Jam's Eddie Vedder. Reworded, added (top 20 or better) charting and deleted spade (why was it even there?). Also place singles in original release order.
    12. Later that year, the Sydney Children's Hospital required emergency funding and decided to raise the funds through a charity event. Due to the strength of sales of Recurring Dream and the band's philanthropic nature, the group decided to reunite to help in the cause. The group performed a free concert to an audience on the footsteps of the Sydney Opera House on 24 November 1996. Initially the concert was to occur the day before, but was postponed due to weather issues. All the band's members, including Hester, participated. To feature elements of eras of the group's history, the group also called upon Peter Jones and Tim Finn to make guest appearances. Prior to the performance, Crowded House was supported by Custard, Powderfinger and You Am I. The concert is considered one of the biggest live performances in Australian history with varying reports of the crowd being between 120,000 and over 200,000 people.[1][8] > (Note: new paragraph needed) On 24 November 1996, they performed the Farewell to the World concert on the footsteps of the Sydney Opera House, raising emergency funds through a charity event for the Sydney Children's Hospital. Earlier band members, including Hester, Tim Finn and Jones, participated. Prior to their performance, Crowded House was supported by Custard, Powderfinger and You Am I. The concert had one of the highest live audiences in Australian history with varying reports of the audience being 120,000–250,000 people.[1][8] Reworded for brevity. Unintended(?) pun on crowded house removed.
    13. In 1996, this was released on VHS, but wasn't initially released in audio format on cassette or CD. This was rectified in 2007 with both a double CD and a DVD of the concert made available. > Farewell to the World was released on VHS in December, but wasn't initially released in audio format on cassette or CD; in 2007, a double CD and a DVD was issued. Brevity. Refs needed.

    Done. Some rewording, reformatting from above. Next.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 22:53, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

    Following farewell and before reunion (1996–2006)[edit]

    1. Following the initial breakup of Crowded House in 1996, the members embarked upon various different projects in an array of mediums. Neil Finn initiated a successful solo career, releasing two albums and a soundtrack. Having left the group in 1992, Tim Finn resumed his solo career, though he appeared with them sporadically throughout the Woodface tour as a support act. He has released four solo albums since leaving the band. Together, Neil and Tim Finn recorded two albums as the Finn Brothers, Finn in 1995, just prior to Crowded House's initial breakup, and Everyone Is Here in 2004, which proved more successful than the first. > Following the 1996 breakup of Crowded House, the members embarked upon different projects in an array of mediums. Neil Finn initiated a successful solo career, releasing two albums and a soundtrack. Tim Finn resumed his solo career, after leaving the group in 1992, and issued four solo albums, he also supported Crowded House throughout the Woodface Tour. Together as the Finn Brothers, Neil and Tim recorded two albums, Finn in 1995, and Everyone Is Here in 2004, which had greater commercial success. Refs needed.
    2. Peter Jones and Nick Seymour joined Australian group Deadstar for their second album. Nick left after the release of their third album to move to Ireland, while Peter played with the band until their end in 1999 and then moved on to become a school teacher. Nick Seymour then worked as a record producer in Dublin. Most notably, he produced Neither Am I, the debut by Irish group Bell X1. He has also worked with Gemma Hayes and Juno Falls. Seymour also became a contributor to The Cake Sale collective, which brought him together with artists and musicians from Bell X1, The Frames, Damien Rice and Snow Patrol. Having played with the group prior to joining Crowded House in late 1992, Mark Hart rejoined Supertramp in the late 1990s. He has since toured as a part of Ringo Starr's All Starr band. In 2001, Hart released a solo album entitled Nada Sonata on the PSB Records label.[9] > Jones and Seymour joined Australian group Deadstar for their second album, Milk (1997). Seymour later worked as a record producer in Dublin, including Irish group Bell X1's debut album Neither Am I (2000). Hart rejoined Supertramp in the late 1990s and then toured as a part of Ringo Starr's All Starr band. In 2001, Hart released a solo album, Nada Sonata, on the PSB Records label.[9] Brevity, most details can be left for each individuals' own article.
    3. Initially after leaving the group in 1994, Paul Hester reunited with his friend Anthony Field who had formed a successful children's entertainment group The Wiggles with former members of rock group The Cockroaches. Field requested Hester to participate in some performances with The Wiggles, and so he was made "Paul the Chef" for a handful of performances.[10] Following Farewell to the World, Hester became a television and radio personality in Australia with his own ABC show Hessie's Shed, and a stint on the short-lived Mick Molloy Show. He also worked as a session drummer and formed his own band Largest Living Things, a name he'd had in reserve since 1985 when Capitol Records refused to allow a band of that name.[11] It was on Hessie's Shed that Finn, Seymour and Hester last shared a stage: on an episode filmed as part of Finn's promotion of Try Whistling This, he and Hester play Not the Girl You Think You Are with the Largest Living Things, before being joined by Seymour to perform Sister Madly. The last song the three ever played together was a version of Paul Kelly's Leaps and Bounds, featuring Kelly on vocals. > After leaving in 1994, Hester reunited with his friend Anthony Field of The Wiggles to participate in some of their performances as 'Paul the Chef'.[10] Following Farewell to the World, Hester became a television and radio personality in Australia with his own ABC show Hessie's Shed. He formed his own band, Largest Living Things, a name he had in reserve since 1985 when Capitol Records rejected it in favour of Crowded House.[11] It was on Hessie's Shed that Finn, Hester and Seymour last shared a stage: on an episode filmed as part of Finn's promotion of Try Whistling This (1998), Finn and Hester play "Not the Girl You Think You Are" with the Largest Living Things, before being joined by Seymour to perform "Sister Madly". The last song the three played together was a version of Paul Kelly's "Leaps and Bounds", featuring Kelly on vocals. Brevity, some reformatting & piping. Refs needed.
    4. In 1999, the group decided to release a collection of (formerly) rare and unreleased recordings, which was entitled Afterglow. It featured the promotional and radio single release "Anyone Can Tell" and live favourite "Recurring Dream" that had previously only been available on the soundtracks of the movies Tequila Sunrise and Rikky And Pete as well as single B-sides. In the same vein of the Recurring Dream album, there was a short history published in the album's sleeve detailing information about the collection of songs and their history. Some limited release versions of the album included a second CD of spoken-word commentary about the songs from Finn. The liner notes in this CD included a confirmation that Crowded House were, at this point, not going to reunite. > In May 1999, the group issued a collection of rare and unreleased recordings, Afterglow, which included promotional and radio single, "Anyone Can Tell", live favourite "Recurring Dream", previously available on movie soundtracks, Tequila Sunrise and Rikky and Pete, as well as B-sides. The album sleeve had a short history detailing information about the collection. Some limited release versions included a second CD with songwriting commentary by Finn, its liner notes confirmed that Crowded House were not due to reunite. Trimmed, fixed a redlink, refs needed.
    5. In 2001, Neil Finn collaborated with several international acts, such as two members of Radiohead, session bassist Sebastian Steinberg, Pearl Jam's Eddie Vedder (who previously appeared on "Everything Is Good for You" on Recurring Dream), Lisa Germano and first collaborated with Johnny Marr, previously of The Smiths, with whom Finn later wrote the song "Even a Child". He also invited brother Tim Finn and his son Liam Finn's band Betchadupa to all join in for a New Zealand based live collaboration given the name 7 Worlds Collide, a line from the Together Alone song "Distant Sun". The live concerts sold out and were released as a double CD or DVD in November 2001. The concerts featured several songs from Crowded House, Split Enz, Tim Finn and Neil Finn's respective solo careers, Finn Brothers, Betchadupa and some pieces written specifically for the performances. Much of this belongs on Neil Finn's article or the respective artists' article. A highly trimmed version > In 2001, Neil Finn collaborated with several international acts, for a New Zealand-based live collaboration given the name 7 Worlds Collide, named for a line from "Distant Sun". The live concerts sold out and performances were released as a double CD and as a DVD in November. The concerts featured songs from Crowded House, Split Enz, Tim and Neil's respective solo careers, Finn Brothers, Betchadupa (with Neil's son, Liam Finn on vocals and guitar) and some pieces written specifically for the performances.
    6. Hester and Seymour reunited to play and record for Melbourne group Tarmac Adam in 2003.[12] In late 2003, Hester was called upon by Australian channel Music Max to host their successful Music Max's Sessions series. After a long battle with depression, Hester took his own life on 26 March 2005 at the age of 46, hanging himself from a tree in a park near his home.[11] > Hester and Seymour were reunited for Melbourne group Tarmac Adam in 2003.[12] In late 2003, Hester hosted Australian channel Music Max series, Music Max's Sessions. On 26 March 2005, with a previous history of depression, Hester committed suicide, aged 46, by hanging himself from a tree in a park near his home.[11] Brevity, reduced euphemisms.
    7. In November 2006, to commemorate the tenth anniversary of the farewell concert, a double CD album and a double DVD set was released. The DVD featured a newly recorded audio commentary with Finn, Seymour and Hart, all of the previously released special features (with the exception of the t-shirt released with the video in 1996) and a new documentary featuring the concert's participants and promoters.[8] > In November 2006, for the tenth anniversary of Farewell to the World, a double CD and a double DVD set was released. The DVD featured newly recorded audio commentary by Finn, Hart and Seymour; with previously released special features (except a t-shirt) from the 1996 VHS; and a new documentary featuring concert participants and promoters.[8] Tightened.

    Reunion (2006–Current)[edit]

    1. After Hester's death and with the ensuing ten year anniversary of Farewell to the World, Neil Finn, Nick Seymour and Mark Hart had all reconnected with one another as a group for the first time since Farewell to the World in 1996. Through this reconnection, Finn asked Seymour to play bass for his upcoming, third solo album. Seymour agreed and the two joined with producer and drummer Ethan Johns to begin recording Finn's third album. > In 2006, after Hester's death and the tenth anniversary of Farewell to the World, Neil Finn, Hart and Seymour reconnected, Finn asked Seymour to play bass guitar for his proposed third solo album. Seymour agreed and the two joined with producer and drummer Ethan Johns to begin recording.
    2. However, through the recording process, the two finally decided it would be better fit as a Crowded House album than a Neil Finn solo venture and so called upon Hart to return to guitar and piano. In January 2007, the group made the public announcement that they would officially reform and had recalled Mark Hart to return and would begin auditioning drummers. After twenty days of auditions, the group announced that they had decided to have former Beck drummer Matt Sherrod to join as the group's drummer on 23 February 2007. The four band members then recorded four new songs for the album, including the album's lead single "Don't Stop Now", with producer Steve Lillywhite.[5] > During recording, they decided it would be better as a Crowded House album and called Hart to return on guitar and piano. In January 2007, the group publicly announced their reformation, and on 23 February, after 20 days of auditioning, former Beck drummer Matt Sherrod joined. The band recorded four new songs for the album, Time on Earth, including its lead single "Don't Stop Now", with producer Steve Lillywhite.[5] Brevity. Should be joined onto previous paragraph.
    3. On 17 March, the band played a live gig from their rehearsal studio to about fifty fans, and broadcast the concert live online. The two and a half hour set included numerous Crowded House staples, along with a handful of new tracks, including one co-written by Natalie Maines and the members of the Dixie Chicks and Finn, "Silent House." This was followed by a "warm-up" concert at the Thekla, a moored ship in Bristol on 19 March 2007. Crowded House played at the Coachella Valley Music and Arts Festival in Indio, California on 29 April 2007, performing classic songs along with songs from the new album. On 7 July 2007, they performed songs in front of thousands at Live Earth in Sydney, Australia.[13] On 8 July 2007, Neil Finn and Nick Seymour appeared on "Rove Live" and the band (including new drummer Matt Sherrod) performed "Don't Stop Now" to promote the release of their new album.[14] > On 17 March, they played a live gig at their rehearsal studio to about 50 fans which was broadcast online. The two-and-a-half hour set had Crowded House staples and a few new tracks, including "Silent House" co-written by Finn with Dixie Chicks members, Martie Maguire, Natalie Maines and Emily Robison. A concert on The Thekla, a moored ship in Bristol, followed on 19 March. Crowded House played at the Coachella Valley Music and Arts Festival on 29 April in Indio, California. On 7 July, they performed to thousands at Live Earth in Sydney, Australia.[13] On 8 July, Finn and Seymour were interviewed on Rove Live and the band, with Hart and Sherrod, performed "Don't Stop Now" to promote the release of the new album, Time on Earth.[14] Tightened.
    4. Prior to the album's release, lead single "Don't Stop Now" was released in Australia on 16 June 2007 and in the United Kingdom on 25 June 2007. The album release shortly followed with it being released on 30 June 2007 in Australia, 2 July 2007 in the United Kingdom and 10 July 2007 in the United States.[15] > "Don't Stop Now" was released in Australia on 16 June and subsequently in UK, the album followed on 30 June in Australia, and in July for UK and US markets.[15] Brevity. More details can be given on album/single articles. Add this sentence to previous paragraph. However some charting information on single(s) and album should be included from a RS.
    5. Neil Finn announced on the commentary track of the Farewell to the World DVD in 2006 that a box set of rarities would be released the next year. He specifically mentions that his demo version of "Don't Dream It's Over" will be on it. This was mentioned when he and Seymour were on Enough Rope with Andrew Denton in July 2007. Finn indicated that the release will be postponed to about 2008 or 2009 as the group is likely to re-enter the studio to record a new studio album with the new lineup before the box set is released.[2] Did this box set eventuate? If not delete whole paragraph as redundant. If so, trim it down, name the box set, de-link previously linked articles and place paragraph in chronological position of its release.
    6. On 8 August 2007 Crowded House performed at the Masonic Hall Grand Lodge of New York; the show was filmed as part of the series Live from the Artists Den.[16] On 21 June 2008 Crowded House played to an audience of 5000 at Westonbirt Arboretum in Gloucestershire, as part of the Forestry Commission's Forest Tour. A week later, the band performed on the main 'Pyramid' stage at the 2008 Glastonbury Festival. A massive crowd sang along to a string of classic Crowded House hits including an already legendary Weather with You (weather being a Glastonbury obsession) and Neil and the band were one of the big successes at the festival.[17] Delete, can't include every performance they've ever made, others included above appear to be firsts since re-union: ie, first live, first UK, first US, first Aus, first live TV.
    7. On 6 December 2008 Crowded House played the Homebake Festival in Sydney. Prior to this were four "warm up gigs" held in Hobart, Melbourne and Sydney, to relatively small crowds in intimate venues. Finn's younger son, Elroy, played backup guitar at these events, while Don McGlashan played a wide variety of instruments. > ''On 6 December 2008 Crowded House played the Homebake festival in Sydney, with warm up gigs in Hobart, Melbourne and Sydney, to relatively small crowds in intimate venues. Finn's younger son, Elroy Finn, played backup guitar, while Don McGlashan played a wide variety of instruments. Trimmed, introduces additional/touring members so this paragraph is kept.
    8. On 14 March 2009 Crowded House made a special appearance at the Sound Relief concert in Melbourne, Australia they played 3 of their songs with Liam Finn. > On 14 March 2009 Liam Finn performed at the Sound Relief concert in Melbourne, Crowded House made a guest appearance with him and played three songs.
    9. Crowded House began recording their follow-up album to Time On Earth in April 2009, in Finn's own Roundhead Studios. While Time On Earth was somewhat of a hybrid between a Neil Finn solo release and a band album, the follow-up is the first Crowded House record since 1993's Together Alone to feature the entire official lineup throughout. Jim Scott produced, staying as a holdover from The Sun Came Out and Wilco (The Album), both of which he had recently produced at Roundhead Studios. Having observed over their career that Crowded House often ended up playing songs much better on tour than when they were recorded in the studio, the band decided to "road-test" several new songs on tours leading up to the album sessions. Their hope was that the extra familiarity would allow them to better capture their live chemistry in the studio, though it is not known how many of these road-tested songs (if any) were actually recorded. > Crowded House began recording their follow-up album to Time on Earth in April, at Finn's own Roundhead Studios. While Time on Earth was somewhat of a hybrid between a Neil Finn solo release and a band album, the follow-up is expected to feature the entire official lineup throughout. Jim Scott produced, staying as a holdover from The Sun Came Out by 7 Worlds Collide and Wilco (The Album) by Wilco, both recently produced at Roundhead. Crowded House often played songs much better on tour than when first recorded, so the band decided to "road-test" several new songs on tours leading prior to recording sessions. Their hope was that the extra familiarity would allow them to better capture their live chemistry in the studio—it is not known how many of these road-tested songs, if any, were actually recorded. Tighten up. May need to put The Sun Came Out information from next paragraph before this one for chronological sequencing, in which case it should be de-linked here.
    10. In August 2009, Neil Finn traveled to Los Angeles to finish the sixth Crowded House album. He recorded final overdubs at Jim Scott's Los Angeles studio before they commenced mixing the album. During this period Finn also made several appearances at LA nightclub Largo, performing on his own, with Jon Brion, and with members of the 7 Worlds Collide collective promoting their charity album The Sun Came Out. Finn stated in numerous interviews that Crowded House intended to release their next album in January or February 2010. He noted that the album will contain an occasional "twist and turn" and that a few of the songs "sound like nothing we've done before." > In August, Finn traveled to Los Angeles to finish the sixth Crowded House album. He recorded final overdubs at Jim Scott's Los Angeles studio before they commenced mixing the album. Finn also performed at an LA nightclub Largo, both on his own, with Jon Brion, and with members of the 7 Worlds Collide promoting their charity album The Sun Came Out. Finn stated in numerous interviews that the new Crowded House was due in early 2010, containing an occasional "twist and turn" and a few songs that "sound like nothing we've done before." Note direct quotes must be cited. Information on 7 World Collide's album, The Sun Came Out, may be needed before the previous paragraph for chronological order, in which case it should be wikilinked (and italics) there but not linked later.

    Songwriting and musical influences[edit]

    Song writing and musical influences > Songwriting and musical influences
    1. Finn has often cited artists such as The Beatles, The Rolling Stones and folk rock artists such as John Denver and Joan Baez. > Finn has often cited artists such as The Beatles, The Rolling Stones and folk rock artists such as John Denver and Joan Baez, as his influences. These claims need citations (see Criterion 2).
    2. Finn has said that his mother has always been a huge musical influence to him, encouraging him from a young age to listen to a variety of different musical styles, including Irish folk singers and Maori music. > Finn's mother was a significant musical influence, encouraging him to listen to a variety of musical styles, including Irish folk singers and Māori music. Mother's name would be informative.
    3. Maori influences can be heard particularly in Together Alone and also in the Finn Brothers release Finn. > Maori influences can be heard in Together Alone and in Finn Brothers album Finn. Trimmed, de-linked previously linked.
    4. Some songs he has written have random lines, notably "Pineapple Head" from Together Alone, based on lines murmured by his younger son Elroy when he was sick and delirious with a fever as a young child. The story is often told as though it was Finn's elder son Liam who was sick, but in fact it was Elroy.[1] > Some songs have random lines, such as in "Pineapple Head" from Together Alone, based on words murmured by younger son Elroy when he was sick and delirious with a fever as a young child. The story is sometime incorrectly told as though it was elder son Liam who was sick.[1]

    Album covers, costumes and set design[edit]

    1. Crowded House was a follow-on group from Split Enz, a group who were known for their flair, style and set design. > Crowded House followed on from Split Enz, known for their flair, style and set design. Trimmed, de-linked previously linked. Cite
    2. Noel Crombie, Split Enz's costume and set designer, was not a member of Crowded House, so Nick Seymour, a professional artist and art school graduate, was the obvious choice to fill this role. > Noel Crombie, Split Enz's costume and set designer, did not join Crowded House, so Seymour, an art school graduate and professional artist, filled the role. Trimmed. Cite.
    3. Seymour also collaborated with Neil Finn and Paul Hester to design the sets for many of the groups early music videos, such as "Don't Dream It's Over" and "Better Be Home Soon". > Seymour collaborated with Finn and Hester on set design for many of their early music videos, such as "Don't Dream It's Over" and "Better Be Home Soon". Trimmed, de-linked previously linked. Cite.
    4. Some simply featured photographs of the band, such as "It's Only Natural" which featured a photo of the band lineup of the time with the typeset of "Crowded House" as used on the song's album Woodface. > Some had photographs of the band, such as "It's Only Natural" which had the lineup of the time with the typeset of "Crowded House" as used on the song's album Woodface.
    5. The artwork for "Pineapple Head" was created by Mental As Anything member Chris O'Doherty (commonly known as Reg Mombassa, creator of Mambo Graphics). > The artwork for "Pineapple Head" was created by Mental As Anything founder Reg Mombassa (aka Chris O'Doherty, creator of Mambo Graphics). Restructured, Reg no longer in Mentals, de-linked previous link. Cite.
    6. At times during Crowded House's initial era, Mombassa and Crombie assisted Seymour creating artwork and costumes. > During Crowded House's initial era, Crombie and Mombassa assisted Seymour in creating artwork and costumes. Cite.
    7. Most notably, the set design from Farewell to the World was solely designed by Crombie, while Mombassa and Seymour designed all promotional materials and artwork.[18] > Set design for the Farewell to the World concerts was solely crafted by Crombie, while Mombassa and Seymour provided all promotional materials and artwork.[18] Reworded, de-linked previous link.

    Band members[edit]

    1. 2007-Current > 2007-present Per infobox or change infobox.
    2. Wikilink first time mention of instrumentation/activity, lower case
    3. "The Mullanes" era > The Mullanes era De-link, remove unneeded quote marks.
    4. Jules Bowen. Why not mentioned in main text?
    5. Consistent font size for members' names? Past members names seem larger.

    Discography[edit]

    Only studio albums, all others into Crowded House discography, all album titles to be italics. Remove Top 20 hits list.

    Awards[edit]

    1. {{Main|List of Crowded House awards}} > {{Main|List of awards and nominations received by Crowded House}}
    2. Crowded House has won several awards internationally. How many is several? Specify. Cite.
    3. In Australia, the group has won eleven ARIA Awards from 26 nominations, including being the first ever winner of the Best New Talent award in 1987, the ceremony's first year. > In Australia, the group has won eleven ARIA Awards from 26 nominations, including first ever winner of the 'Best New Talent' award in 1987.

    References[edit]

    1. An article of this size and quality should have both general and specific references.

    {{refbegin}}

    General
    1. <!-- Bourke, Chris, ''Something So Strong'', Macmillan Australia, 1997, ISBN 0-7329-0886-8 --> > * {{cite book|title=Crowded House: Something So Strong|url=http://books.google.com.au/books?id=kJCfAAAAMAAJ|last=Bourke|first=Chris|authorlink=|publisher=[[Macmillan Publishers]]|location=[[South Melbourne, Victoria|South Melbourne, Vic]]|year=1997|chapter=|chapterurl= |pages=|isbn=0732908868|accessdate=6 November 2009}} Note: limited preview for on-line version.
    2. Additional candidates for General references are:* {{cite encyclopedia|last=McFarlane|first=Ian|authorlink=Ian McFarlane|encyclopedia=[[Encyclopedia of Australian Rock and Pop]]|title=Encyclopedia entry for 'Crowded House'|url=http://web.archive.org/web/20040406102221/www.whammo.com.au/encyclopedia.asp?articleid=237|accessdate=6 November 2009|year=1999|publisher=[[Allen & Unwin]]|location=[[St Leonards, New South Wales|St Leonards, NSW]]|isbn=1865080721}} and

    * {{Cite web|url=http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=11:aifoxqw5ldte~T1|work=</i>[[Allmusic]]<i>|publisher=[[Rovi Corporation]]|title=Crowded House > Biography|last=Woodstra|first=Chris|accessdate=6 November 2009}}

    Specific

    {{refend}}

    1. {{Reflist|2}} > {{Reflist|colwidth=25em}} Browser friendly form.
    2. Depending on which General references were used, the formatting of specific references will differ. In any case, this will be described in Criterion 2 below.

    Further reading[edit]

    1. Use cite book template. (See General references example above). List in alphabetical order. Give location. Wikilink where available.

    'Done. Also, whole section was moved above refs section by another user to avoid ref problem I created when I reffed these.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 10:44, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

    External links[edit]

    1. Use only one official website: make sure it functions properly.
    2. Don't use fansite(s): move them to the dmoz.org site at point five below.
    3. Billboard entry?
    4. MusicBrainz entry?
    5. Crowded House at Open Directory Project?

    Categories[edit]

    1. Place these in alphanumerical order.
  2. Verifiable with no original research:
    (a) it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline;
    (b) it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons—science-based articles should follow the scientific citation guidelines; and
    (c) it contains no original research.

    Criterion 2[edit]

    Note Many points indicated above require further references and some are repeated here.
    Early albums (1986–1990)
    1. "Mean to Me" failed to chart in the US, Specify (e.g. Billboard Hot 100) and substantiate all US chart claims.
    2. It became a massive international hit and remains the group's most commercially successful and most awarded hit. Substantiate all three claims.
    3. "Don't Dream It's Over" reached #2 in the United States, See point 1 above.
    4. and the video earned the group the MTV Video Music Award for Best New Artist in 1987, the first of many Crowded House awards.[4] Move ref #4 to cover MTV Award, it does not support last phrase: 1987 MTV Awards were held on 11 September (see ref #4) while 1987 ARIA Awards were held on 2 March where Crowded House won three ARIAs (see ref #19) clearly the MTV award is not their first award.
    5. "World Where You Live" was issued as the fourth single reaching #65 in the US Billboard Hot 100 singles chart Verify peak.
    6. As primary songwriter for the group, Similar claim in Lead, either or both need RS.
    7. (the band joked that one potential title for the new release was Mediocre Follow-Up). RS or page from general ref.
    8. the single "Better Be Home Soon," which reached #42 in the US. See point 1 above.
    9. Although critics were impressed, the album was not as well received commercially as their debut. Verify both claims.

    The early nineties (1991–1994)[edit]

    1. The album sold well in the UK and Europe, in contrast to its limited American success. Needs a ref for sales vs chart success. See also next point.
    2. The immense success of this album particularly in the UK prompted the Queen in June 1993 to bestow the OBE upon Tim and Neil for their contribution to the music of New Zealand. This needs to be fully verified by a RS. It may have to be reworded according to the citation for the OBE, if Woodface is not mentioned in the citation it should not be included in the Lead nor in this section. If the citation/honour cannot be found in a RS then the whole reference to an OBE could be struck off.
    3. In this same era, Princess Diana, known for her love of music, reported that Crowded House was her favourite band. Cite.
    4. Tim Finn was asked to leave part of the way through the UK leg Cite.
    5. The album sold well internationally upon release in October 1993 on the strength of lead single "Distant Sun" and its followup "Private Universe". Cite
    6. He also designed many costumes worn by the group, notably those from the cover of the group's debut album Crowded House. Cite.

    Style[edit]

    Much of the content in this section has no in-line citations nor direct references and may constitute original research. Provide an in-line citation for each separate claim, generally a sentence at a time. Is there any songwriting information from Hester or others?
    1. Seymour designed or co-designed all of the album covers and co-created and designed all interior layouts. Cite.
    2. Though all the album covers were by Seymour, the majority of the single covers were not. Cite.

    References[edit]

    1. Formatting of references for in-line citations must all be in the same style: either parenthetical or footnotes. I've gone for footnote style. As indicated above, there should be separate General references and Specific references subsections. This will affect the formatting of existing ref [1]. <ref name="sss">{{Cite book|last=Bourke|first=Chris|title=Something So Strong|publisher= Macmillan Australia|year=1997|isbn=0732908868}}</ref> > <ref name="sss">Bourke, p. 1. Note: this is an example only, I don't know if Finn is mentioned on page 1. This system requires each separate in-line citation of Bourke's book to have its own page number, page range or chapter name as applicable.
    2. <ref name=denton>Denton, Andrew. Refer to ''[[Enough Rope]]''. Airdate 16 July 2007 on [[Australian Broadcasting Corporation|ABC]], Australia. Interview transcript: [http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1979899.htm ENOUGH ROPE with Andrew Denton - Episode 139]. Retrieved 15 August 2007.</ref> This is in the parenthetical style and will provide the example for conversion to footnote style. Aside: I'd prefer to have first denton ref to have full formating and not have to find the full form later in the text. > <ref name=denton>{{cite web|last=Denton|first=Andrew|work=[[Enough Rope]]|date=16 July 2007|publisher=[[Australian Broadcasting Corporation]] (ABC)|url=http://www.abc.net.au/tv/enoughrope/transcripts/s1979899.htm|title=ENOUGH ROPE with Andrew Denton - Episode 139: Neil Finn and Nick Seymour|accessdate=Retrieved 15 August 2007}}</ref>
    3. <ref>{{Cite web|url=http://australian-charts.com/showitem.asp?interpret=Crowded+House&titel=Time+On+Earth&cat=a|title=Crowded House - Time on Earth|accessdate = 2007-08-19}}</ref> Missing publisher information. > <ref>{{Cite web|url=http://australian-charts.com/showitem.asp?interpret=Crowded+House&titel=Time+On+Earth&cat=a|title=Crowded House - Time on Earth|publisher=Australian Charts Portal|accessdate =19 August 2009}}</ref>
    4. <ref name=mtv87>[[MTV]], [http://www.mtv.com/ontv/vma/1987/ MTV Award 1987 (See winners tab)]. Retrieved 3 September 2009.</ref> Convert, move to first occurrence. Delete (See winners tab) from title and add Note: See winners tab after }} and before </ref>
    5. <ref>{{Cite web | publisher = ARIA Awards | url = http://ariaawards.com.au/history-by-artist.php?letter=C&artist=Crowded%20House | title = Crowded House ARIA Awards | accessdate = 2007-08-07 }}</ref> > <ref name="ARIAList">{{Cite web|publisher=ARIA Awards|url=http://ariaawards.com.au/history-by-artist.php?letter=C&artist=Crowded%20House|publisher=Australian Recording Industry Association (ARIA)|title=ARIA Awards 2009 : History: Winners by Artist : Crowded House|accessdate =7 August 2007}}</ref> If this is the first ref by ARIA then publisher should be wikilinked and all subsequent ARIA refs should have publisher de-linked. Ref named as other ARIA awards are to be reffed (including Awards section).
    6. Move (Scroll down to Tourism New Zealand) to a Note after }} and before </ref>
    7. Delete this ref, wikipedia editors are not reliable. Find a reliable source for the claim.
    8. <ref name="linernotes">{{Cite book|last=Hepworth|first=David|title=''Farewell to the World'' CD liner notes|publisher= [[Parlophone]]|year=2006}}</ref> > <ref name="linernotes">{{Cite book|last=Hepworth|first=David|work=[[Farewell to the World]]|title=CD liner notes|publisher= [[Parlophone]]|year=2006}}</ref> Wikilinks album title in ref.
    9. <ref name=nadasonata>Allmusic [http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=33:wz5oxx9hld6e Nada Sonata - Mark Hart]. Retrieved 4 September 2009.</ref> Convert. Also add publisher, see Allmusic general ref for sample.
    10. <ref>[http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0376988/fullcredits#cast IMDB: The Wiggles - Yummy Yummy]. Retrieved 4 September 2009.</ref> > <ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0376988/fullcredits#cast|work=The Wiggles - Yummy Yummy|title=IMDB entry - Full cast and Crew|publisher=[[Internet Movie Database]] (IMDB)|accessdate=4 September 2009}}</ref> Converted another. Added publisher & wikilinked.
    11. <ref name=hessie>Bernard Zuel, Nassim Khadem, Patrick Donovan and James Button. [http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/03/28/1111862327689.html <br />Farewell to the clown prince - music - www.smh.com.au]. Retrieved 15 August 2007.</ref> > <ref name=hessie>{{cite news|last=Zuel|first=Bernard|coauthors=Nassim Khadem, Patrick Donovan, James Button|url=http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2005/03/28/1111862327689.html|title=Farewell to the clown prince - music|work=[[The Sydney Morning Herald]]|publisher=[[Fairfax Media]]|date=29 March 2005|accessdate=6 November 2009}}</ref> Converted, added wikilinks & publisher & date.
    12. <ref name=ta>Tarmac Adam. [http://www.myspace.com/tarmacadam tarmac adam] Retrieved 31 October 2009.</ref> Check functionality: seems to be faulty/out of date. If fully funcitonal then convert and add publisher. If faulty replace with a RS.
    13. Check destination, appears to be a general page with no specific information on CH. Find a better source or delete claim. If kept, give publisher.
    14. Check destination, appears to be a general page with no specific information on CH. Find a better source or delete claim. If kept, give publisher.
    15. Why use an archived file? Go direct to Billboard article "Marr, Dixie Chicks Enrich Crowded House Album".
    16. Publisher needed.
    17. Convert. Give publisher, accessdate.
    18. Convert.
    19. Probably replaced by ARIA List ref given above.
    20. <ref>{{cite web |url=http://www.apra.com.au/awards/music/2001_topten.asp |title=APRA Music Awards - Top Ten |archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20080104170952/http://www.apra.com.au/awards/music/2001_topten.asp |archivedate=2008-01-04}}. Retrieved 7 August 2007.</ref> > <ref name="APRA10">{{cite web |url=http://www.apra-amcos.com.au/APRAAwards/MusicAwards/History/2001Top10Songs.aspx|title=The final list: APRA'S Ten best Australian Songs|last=Culnane |first=Paul |publisher=[[Australasian Performing Right Association]] (APRA)|date=28 May 2001|accessdate=6 November 2009}}</ref> Note: different reference, unarchived and has author. If APRA already used, de-link here.
    21. <ref>http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hottest100_alltime/countdown/cd_41-50.htm</ref> > <ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/hottest100_alltime/countdown/cd_41-50.htm |title=Countdown | Hottest 100 - Of All Time | triple j |publisher=Australian Broadcasting Corporation (ABC)|date= |accessdate=7 November 2009}</ref> Place at end of punctuation.
  3. Broad in its coverage:
    (a) it addresses the main aspects of the topic; and
    (b) it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).

    Criterion 3[edit]

    Some points for additional information are given above. Also further trimming may be needed after original run through.
    1. CH members involved in Split Enz reunions and band's induction into ARIA Hall of Fame should be given a sentence, probably just after Hester's death and before release of 10th anniversary of Farewell to the World.
    2. BRIT Award win should be mentioned in awards section. Place just after MTV award?
  4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without bias, giving due weight to each.

    Criterion 4[edit]

    Some bias towards particular member(s) vs others should be handled by changes described above.
  5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
  6. Illustrated, if possible, by images:
    (a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
    (b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.

    Criterion 6[edit]

    Already mentioned need for all images to have alternative text.
    1. [[Image:Crowded-house1.JPG|thumb|left|Crowded House in San Francisco, April 1987. From L to R: [[Paul Hester]], [[Neil Finn]], [[Nick Seymour]]]] > [[Image:Crowded-house1.JPG|thumb|alt=Three men are standing in front of posters advertising the band. Man at left is wearing sunglasses, smiling and adjusting his dark jacket. Man in middle is staring to his left and wears a similar dark jacket. Third man is also staring to his left and has a dark jacket.|left|Crowded House in San Francisco, April 1987. From L to R: [[Paul Hester]], [[Neil Finn]], [[Nick Seymour]]]] Note: alt text supplied here is only a suggestion.
    2. Are album covers allowed on non-album articles? See Non-free images
    3. Sound samples: too long? Only use 10% or 30 s whichever is less. See Wikipedia:Music samples#How much is 10% e.g. "Better Be Home Soon" is 3:07 with 10% at 18.7 s while sample used is 30s. Fix or delete sample(s).

Have fun.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 02:45, 6 November 2009 (UTC) Fixed pipe.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 03:35, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Comment[edit]

Whilst I would always encourage the use of alt text, it is not at present one of the WP:Good article criteria. Jezhotwells (talk) 15:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

There is some very good advice and suggestions given above by shaidar cuebiyar, though - as Jezhotwells notes - not all are GA criteria. Reviewers, however, do things differently, and that's one of the pleasant aspects of GA, the flexibility and individuality involved - the aim after all is to improve the articles.
I note that this GA review has been on hold for over a month, though it's not clear why. There is a lot of comment above - is it possible for shaidar cuebiyar to identify the specific GA criteria that is holding up this review. At a glance at the article I feel that lack of referencing in some sections is likely to be one. What else? Perhaps if there is a short list made of what needs to be done then people can chip in and push this forward. SilkTork *YES! 16:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
  • I have gone it and given the article a big clean-up on several fronts. In general, I have removed considerable redundancies in linking, wording, and corrected punctuation. (for example, I feel that with 'hanged himself from a tree', you don't even need to use the word "suicide"). I have doctored some prose, but there is now just one bit of sick prose which I cannot cure:- "Some had photographs of the band, such as "It's Only Natural" which had the lineup of the time with the typeset of "Crowded House" as used on the song's album Woodface." Can anyone either correct it or tell me what it's supposed to mean?? Ohconfucius ¡digame! 07:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Jezhotwells: For Criterion 6, I took the wikilink to Wikipedia:Images and found instruction on usage to include alt text. My interpretation was that they were required. I've read some recent GARs and found reviewers asking for alt text to be added. In any case, I've added alt text to most (all?) images remaining in the article.

It still not in the criteria, (it is the criteria for WP:FAC):
6 Illustrated, if possible, by images:
(a) images are tagged with their copyright status, and valid fair use rationales are provided for non-free content; and
(b) images are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. Jezhotwells (talk) 18:17, 16 January 2010 (UTC)
I see your point and agree that it is not specified in WP:GACR. Aside from WP:IMAGES, I tried WP:EIS and found:

Only Name is required. Most images should use "[[Image:Name|thumb|alt=Alt|Caption]]" and should not specify a size. The other details are optional and can be placed in any order.

I took this to mean name, location, caption and alt text were NOT optional. I concede I may have misinterpreted this criterion too strictly for GAN.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 20:01, 18 January 2010 (UTC)

Ohconfucius: My interpretation, Some singles had photographs of the band—"It's Only Natural" shows then line-up with name, Crowded House, typeset per Woodface's cover.

Outstanding problems remaining:

  1. Suitable references for cite needed plates just added. Other cites/references required from above.
  2. With Something So Strong as a General reference, each use of <ref name="sss"/> should be replaced by a specific page number. I don't have a copy of the book and so cannot supply these.
  3. Sound clips still need to be trimmed according to 10% rule. I don't know how to do these.
  4. Style (both subsections) close to WP:OR. I would prefer some songwriting information on Hester for completeness.
I have added some info on Hester's song writing credits feel free to expand upon this--Mutley (talk) 09:45, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Hopefully this will help.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 22:16, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Just noticed new section added. Announcement of album content from band members/management/record label might be okay if well sourced—but from a fansite? In any case, content repeats information from earlier—this new section needs to go.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 22:32, 15 January 2010 (UTC)
  • Thanks for the translation. I decided that the sentence is better deleted – it is a bit of a dead endm and seems to bring nothing to the party. Ohconfucius ¡digame! 03:05, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

What's the status on this GA review, i.e. how close is it to passage? It's a very detailed review and work's clearly been done on it, so I thought I'd ask to make sure everything's going smoothly on both sides. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 19:39, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

GA review status as of 11 February 2010[edit]

Outstanding problems remaining:

  1. Suitable references for cite needed plates and new information re: 6th album section. Other cites/references required from above have still not been addressed.
  2. With Something So Strong as a General reference, each use of <ref name="sss"/> should be replaced by a specific page number.
  3. Sound clips still need to be trimmed according to 10% rule.
Done Trimmed these back.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 14:37, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
  1. Style (both subsections) close to WP:OR. It needs rewording or citing from reliable sources.

If these points are not addressed within one week of the following date, I'll have to deny the GA.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 06:50, 11 February 2010 (UTC)

GA failed, 19 February 2010[edit]

It is with deep regret that I note that not all of the problems identified above have been suitably addressed. When I reviewed the article last year I had no intention of actually editing it myself to any great extent. After a month or so, little or no progress had occurred and so I dove in and did my bit to improve the article according to my own review: this took a long time as I was not entirely familiar with Crowded House and had not scheduled long-term editing of such a detailed article. Additionally, there were some areas that I did not know how to complete (e.g. Trimming audio files), some other editors did further work towards the aim of improving this article. Some recent new edits added unsourced claims which have cite plates and these have not been tackled. The whole new section on the sixth album should be further reduced: in terms of a long term history of the band it currently claims too much space/significance. I finally learned how to trim audio files but other points indicated have not been sufficiently catered for and so this candidate for Good Article has failed at this time. I hope that my review above will provided editors with ideas for a future GAN.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 06:02, 19 February 2010 (UTC) I have manually transferred the previous discussions, GA and FA candidacies to the archive.shaidar cuebiyar ( talk | contribs ) 00:28, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Intriguer Timing[edit]

The section on the new album states it will be ready in June (it is now out) but more troubling it suggests it would be ready for the band's appearance at the West Coast Blues and Roots Festival in Perth. The Festival actually happened in February so while they may have been able to debut some of the songs, the album was still a few months away from release at that point. Not sure about how to go about making the necessary changes but I thought it should be mentioned here. 119.15.65.1 (talk) 05:49, 13 June 2010 (UTC)

Nationality[edit]

An IP editor has been changing this article and Saturday Sun to say that Crowded House are a New Zealand band, based on a claim (in the Saturday Sun edit summary) that "they are based in New Zealand, and the frontman is a New Zealander". However, only the singer is from New Zealand - the other members are from Australia and the US, and the band formed in Melbourne. As such, I don't think it is right to choose one specific criterion and label the band with one specific nationality, and so I have removed the addition of "New Zealand" from the lead of this article - the article appears to describe the national origins of the band and its members quite adequately. Any comments? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:38, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

PS: I note that the IP who made the edit is from New Zealand -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:58, 20 June 2010 (UTC)


the band were based in Melbourne in the earlier part of their career, but now are based in New Zealand. they formed after New Zealand band Split Enz disbanded. the band's frontman and songwriter Neil Finn is a New Zealander, and they refer to themselves as a New Zealand band. of course, the Aussies are going to claim Crowded House their own. but the Aussies do that to anything relating to New Zealand: they claimed our pavlova, they even recently claimed the All White's magnificent draw with Italy as a victory for "Australasia", not New Zealand.

I've found many sources that say Crowded House are a New Zealand band

http://www.last.fm/music/Crowded+House http://www.lyricsfreak.com/c/crowded+house/

even their myspace page says they're a New Zealand band: http://www.myspace.com/crowdedhouse

surely this is all the evidence I need?

thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.177.86 (talk) 05:11, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, the last.fm and lyricsfreak.com words seem to be a copy of your version of the Wikipedia article after you added "New Zealand" to the lead, so I think we have to discount those (and neither is a reliable source, as both are user-generated). If the band describes themselves as a New Zealand band, I think that would be fine. However, all I can see on their own Myspace page is the words "New Zealand" next to an image of an album cover, and that does not seem to be sufficient to define them as a New Zealand band. Can you provide any unequivocal statements by the band in which they call themselves a New Zealand band, or any reliable third party sources (not blogs, forums, or other sites that can be freely edited by anyone) that describe them as such? -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:44, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Oh, and I suggest you omit the anti-Australia rhetoric - that's only going to damage your own arguments, as Wikipedia articles are supposed to be written from a neutral point of view. -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 08:50, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

the albums have been recorded in new zealand as well. i'm guessing, Zebedee, that you are an australian yourself hence your anti-New Zealand rhetoric. why else would they have premiered their new album in Auckland town hall in April of this year? the list goes on. the only austraian member of the band doesn't even live in australia, he lives in Dublin!

hope i've made my argument clear

PS- "The success of Crowded House and Split Enz prompted the New Zealand Government, in June 1993, to recommend to the Queen to bestow an OBE upon Tim and Neil for their contribution to the music of New Zealand".[3][4] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.177.86 (talk) 09:55, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

No, I'm not Australian - you can tell that if you'd care to check my User page. Please have a read of WP:AGF and WP:NPA, and try to avoid making personal attacks. Please also try to remember that your personal reasoning is irrelevant - the content of Wikipedia articles should reflect what is said in reliable sources, and not the reasoned opinion of individual editors. I'll be happy for Crowded House to be described as a New Zealand band if you can provide reliable third-party sources that describe them as such -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:08, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Further comment: You say "the only austraian member of the band doesn't even live in australia, he lives in Dublin!". However, I'm not arguing that the band is Australian, I'm just suggesting that it appears to be multi-national - it current has one NZ member (Neil Finn), one Australian (Neil Seymour), and two Americans (Mark Hart and Matt Sherrod) -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:34, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Reverted: I have reverted the latest change, which changed the lead to describe Crowded House as "primarily a New Zealand rock group", because that is personal judgment. We could only describe the band like that, especially in the lead, if they were actually described that way by multiple reliable sources. So if anyone wishes to add a specific nationality statement to the lead (or elsewhere in the article) in the light of the multi-national elements of the band's makeup and history, they need to find reliable sources that attest to the band being described that way -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:13, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I've just been doing some more searching for sources, and I found a relevant discussion on the band's website from a couple of years ago - it's at [1]. As we can see from that, there was no clear agreement. I think the best comment was "I just don't think putting a nationality label on Crowded House is really necessary. I think they even said so themselves on a Jools Holland interview way back." -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 15:37, 21 June 2010 (UTC)


that's find, if for wikipedia purposes, you want to keep their nationality covert, but as far as I'm concerned they are a New Zealand band. the frontman has said himself that they are a New Zealand band. I have just emailed his advisor to see what he says, so the jury is out in this one until he emails me back :)

It's not about being covert, and "As far as I am concerned" is irrelevant - Wikipedia requires references from reliable sources (see WP:RS) in order add information to an article - the personal opinions of editors cannot be used, as that would be original work, which Wikipedia prohibits (see WP:OR). The reply to your email will be interesting, but even that cannot be used as a source for a Wikipedia article - unless Crowded House are publicly referred to as a New Zealand band and that is attested to by reliable sources, we cannot say so in the Wikipedia article. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

i can see where you're coming from- it's not 100% clear, but they're definitely not an Aussie or American band. a lot of their songs are about New Zealand, they previewed their new album here first, and they recorded it here in Neil Finn's studio. sure, they may have been initially based in Melbourne but they are based in NZ now and well & truly a kiwi band. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.177.86 (talk) 09:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

They recorded their first two albums in LA and their third album in Melbourne. It doesn't really matter as lots of bands record albums in different countries. The Police and the Stones recorded albums in Jamaica but it doesn't mean they are Jamaican bands. --Mutley (talk) 10:30, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
What I'm suggesting is that, in the absence of any definitive description in reliable sources, we should omit any nationality labels from the leads of the relevant articles (there's another album article that says "Australian", and I think that should be removed too - I'll be happy to do so when we are concluded here). It's too complex for a single label, and so a description in the body of the text saying where they were formed, the nationalities of the members, and where they are currently based (all of which can be supported with reliable sources), is a much better approach. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 10:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

is there a wiki project for New Zealand music articles? i notice down the bottom it says there's one for Australian music but there doesn't seem to be one for New Zealand. that's a shame for a country wwhere we are proud about our musical prowess

No, I can't see a NZ one either, and I agree it's a shame -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

i noticed you have never been to NZ.. why not? is the travel time the issue?—Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.177.86 (talk) 11:34, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

It's a combination of time and money, and my limited supply of both - but both NZ and Oz are high on the list of places I'd like to visit -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)


yes it is very expensive to travel across the world, but do come to NZ if you get the chance. beautiful country. can't wait for the rugby world cup here next year! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.177.86 (talk) 12:59, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

yo zebsta —Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.57.177.86 (talk) 13:45, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

To the person that is arguing about Crowded House being a New Zealand band - anonymous @ 122.57.177.86 can you tell us exactly what part of the article your argument is about? The article says that the band was ** formed ** in Melbourne and it says ** origin** Australia which can be confirmed in the definitive reference of the band. Please point us to where it says that it is an Australian band. This topic was discussed shortly after the article was created and crops up every now and then. If you want to add a comment to the effect that they are now based in New Zealand please do so (citing refs of course). --Mutley (talk) 11:22, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi. The IP editor in question has agreed that the band should not be specifically described as a New Zealand band (if not here, then on one of the other Talk pages that this got sidetracked to), and I think we have a reasonable consensus that they should not have a specific nationality label attached to them - statements regarding their origin, current base, and nationalities of the members can be made factually in the article. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 11:56, 30 June 2010 (UTC)
Given that the band formed in Australia, it would be considered an Australian band, especially since the band's original rhythm section was Australian (i.e. Nick and Paul), and we consider anything to be of where it formed, not from where the sum of its parts came from. Having said that, the band themselves claim no allegiance to any particular place, playing most of their gigs in Europe in their current incarnation. It'd be false to claim they're really from NZ, given that only Neil Finn is from there, and for the blip of time Tim and Eddie in the band also. I think "band formed in Australia whose members are from New Zealand, Australia and the United States" summarises it. If you don't want something clunky like that in the lead, don't put anything. --rm 'w avu 08:53, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Amen to that! The first paragraph says it all and in my view shouldn't be changed any more. Formed in AUS, led by someone from NZ, now made up of 1 NZ, 1 AUS and 2 USA. Time would be better spent adding new info (with citations) rather than fighting about nationality. At least no one has tried to claim CH are now American...give it time! Iangurteen (talk) 14:21, 23 April 2011 (UTC)
Once again this problem has arisen with a contributor asserting that this is an "Australian - New Zealand" band. I have reverted this edit. The lead paragraph appears absolutely fine to me. It explains where the band was formed (Melb, Aus) and that it's leader, Neil Finn, is a New Zealander. With the line up now 1xNZ, 1xAus and 2xUSA this is surely adequate. CH are truly a global act! Can I suggest (again) that any proposed changes on this subject are put up for discussion on the talk page first.Thegraciousfew (talk) 17:01, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
I think part of the problem could be due to people getting Crowded House confused with Split Enz as most of the members of Split Enz are from New Zealand so it may be worth mentioning the next time someone changes the article.--Mutley (talk) 10:25, 3 April 2014 (UTC)