Talk:Crowdfunding

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Suggested merges[edit]

Mass to Crowd: Crowd funding is a sub set of Mass funding. Makes only sense to merge a sub into a main. BenediktG (talk) 17:40, 07 October 2009

Funding to Lending: Lending is a sub set of financing or funding, excluding charity and several other funding/financing methods. Makes only sense to merge a sub into a main. BenediktG (talk) 17:40, 07 October 2009

Is it always true that Crowd Funding is a subset of Mass Funding? My research suggests that crowd funding might involve a mass of folk chipping in, but then it might not. If that's correct, then you could argue the converse to BenediktG's argument above. I am not qualified to resolve this and would appreciate advice from Someone Who Knows (even better, Someone Who Can Provide References To Back Up Their Opinions). Whatever the outcome, I certainly agree there's some merging to be done here. The topics Person-to-person lending and Peer-to-peer banking seem to be very close in meaning too. As a matter of interest, when I did a google search today, "mass funding" gets 8,910 hits whereas "crowd funding" gets about 64,500 hits. That suggests to me that the phrase "mass funding" is rather less common that "crowd funding". Hugh Mason (talkcontribs 16:05, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
Hugh Mason I agree with your comments. What confuses me is the term of mass funding, I cant find documented evidence to support its meaning? On the other hand, Jeff Howe wrote Crowdsourcing 'How the Power of the Crowd is Driving the Future of Business, pg 280, and discussed crowdsourcing and its four umbrella strategies CROWDFUNDING, crowdcreation, crowdwisdom and crowdvoting. Early citation of crowdfunding was made by Michael Sullivan (http://www.wordspy.com/words/crowdfunding.asp). Here are several crowdfunding websites, the Biracy project is a social experiment in crowdfunded film making (www.biracy.com), Age of Studid discuss their successes of crowdfunding film (http://www.ageofstupid.net/how_to_crowd_fund_your_film), and Kachingle is a way for readers to choose and equitably share their $5 monthly contribution with the web sites they appreciate the most (http://kachingle.com/). These clear examples of crowdfunding all involve the crowd ( or less commonly known as mass), I therefore understand this concept to be crowdfunding and not mass funding? I also agree with Hugh Masons comments that "mass funding" is rather less common then "crowd funding", therefore I ask the question should mass funding be re-directed to crowdfunding? I think it should. Please acknowledge if there is more references needed to support these statements. Allthingsonline (talk) 05:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC) Allthingsonline (talk) 15:07, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
Mass-funding is a well established phenomenon and many have been Mass-funding for decades, long before Crowd-funding was coined as a networking mechanism for smaller players. Red Cross is an important example with its 97 million volunteers and invitation to contribute to its budget for more than 1.1 billion Swiss francs to fund its work in 2010. Red Cross is not inviting a definable crowd to contribute. It is inviting the masses, including countries and individuals, to contribute with resources as money and tasks, in form of gifts - in their global, continuous Mass-funding. In my opinion it would be turning things upside down to merge Mass-funding into Crowd-funding. To say that crowd is sometimes mass is like saying small is sometimes large. It is simply wrong. We need both these terms if we want to be able to express us clearly. It is not enough for us to say wind when we mean hurricane. But if some merge is to be done, it makes only sense to merge a sub into a main.

BenediktG (talk 15:00, 02 February 2010 (UTC)

There are more comments on the merge from BenediktG and myself at the end of #First paragraph. I've left a note at with Wikiproject Economics seeking more input. Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 05:15, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

Thanks again to Hunter for his attention. Hope Hunter's input invitation to the discussions about first paragraph in Crowd-funding and the suggested merge, will soon make the number of participants in these discussions change from being a group to be a crowd - so to speak. :) To give Hunter's invitation time to bear fruits, the suggested merge of Mass- into Crowd- should be placed on Hold. BenediktG (talk) 10:59, 04 February 2010 (UTC)

I considered cleaning up Mass funding, but I wouldn't know where to start. Indeed, I believe it should be gone, merged into crowd funding with junk removed or sourced. Thank you for the passionate effort BenediktG, but it seems to me that most of Mass funding is redefinition of accepted terms. A few cases in point: appealing to masses for tasks performed is crowdsourcing, and the Red Cross example appears to describe as much (see similar crowdsourcing examples, like Peer to Patent and Stimulus Watch). Also, "crowd" is not used to restrict to a "limited" group of people. Most important to the issue at hand, I don't see any different between mass funding (as described here, I unfortunately have not seen it elsewhere) and crowdfunding as I've encountered. I'm with Hugh and Allthingsonline: mass funding seems to come out of nowhere, as suggested through Google and Google Scholar: Perhaps some sources might help in understanding where this is coming from? --Organisciak (talk) 04:49, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Another quick point. Googling Mass funding gives you the Wikipedia page, and some upcoming website called mass-funding.org that was registered by a Benedikt G a few days before the wiki article went up. There's also a Twitter account, created on the same day as the Mass funding article was. Count that as a solid vote from me. Once again, no disrespect intended, but Wikipedia is not for creating new terms to advertise outside ventures. --Organisciak (talk) 04:57, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks Organisciak for providing a fresh view. The Red Cross might not be a great example of crowdsourcing/crowd funding anyway, because if I understand Wikipedia's article correctly, they actually get much of their funding from countries and organisations. Over recent months, several contributors have independently tried to find sources for the the mass funding article without success, and most of that article's content was duplicated at Crowd funding and/or Crowdsourcing. Accordingly I've redirected the Mass funding article to this article. Adrian J. Hunter(talkcontribs) 14:47, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I suggest merging the "Intellectual property exposure" section with the "Risks and Barriers" subsection of "Pros and Cons". Does anybody have an opinion on whether this should be done? Jegcsc (talk) 06:00, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Equity crowdfunding[edit]

Some recent edits have created a very long section on some very specific US legislation Crowd_funding#Equity_Crowdfunding. IMHO this is way too long for this article; and seems to be covering a specific section of a much larger bill. As such, this should be added to a wikipedia article about that particular bill, and a short sentence or two summarizing the relationship/importance to crowd funding as a topic added, with a link could be added to this article. Might the editor in question consider making these revisions? --Karl.brown (talk) 13:14, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Feel free to slash and burn. --Nowa (talk) 15:29, 2 August 2012 (UTC)
Actually, I fired up the chainsaw and got to work.--Nowa (talk) 15:52, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

This section has factual errors, omissions, and (I believe) unnecessary inclusions. Examples:

  • (Error) Kassan, Spinrad (that's me), and Ringelman first petitioned [1] the SEC for a crowdfunding exemption in June 2010, and Spinrad discussed the issue at the SEC forum in November 2010 [2], not 2011 as stated in article.
  • (Omission) The crowdfunding legislation in the JOBS Act was not based on the Entrepreneur Access to Capital Act (H.R.2930, McHenry, R-NC), which was the first crowdfunding exemption bill. The original version of the JOBS Act included H.R.2930, but the Senate swapped it out for different language that more closely resembled a later bill, the CROWDFUND Act (S.1970, Merkley, D-OR). It is this version that was subsequently passed by the house and signed into law. See Steven Bradford, Promise Unfulfilled, Securities Regulation Law Journal [3], page 5.
  • (Omission) Rep. McHenry cites the inspiration for H.R.2930 as the BuyaBeerCompany.com campaign, which launched in Nov 2009 to gather pledges for the purchase of the Pabst Brewing Company. See House Oversight Committee hearing, June 26, 2012, "The JOBS Act in Action" [4], McHenry comments starting at 59:00.
  • (Unnecessary inclusions) While the Startup Exemption crew should be mentioned for their leadership in lobbying, the who/where/when of the first meeting of the organization CFIRA and their scheduling of two appearances and interviews with Rep. Patrick McHenry may be too low-level for a general encyclopedia entry on the topic of crowdfunding.

I was gonna just go ahead and "be bold" editing this entry, but these are not minor changes, and I have a few others, so I wanted to discuss first. I agree with Nowa that this section should be shorter, but the story of the movement behind the JOBS Act's crowdfunding provision (Title III) is instructive and interesting, and may merit an entry of its own. Pspinrad (talk) 23:01, 8 April 2013 (UTC)

Pspinrad - Dive in.--Nowa (talk) 12:56, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Having very recently started familiarizing myself with crowdsourcing and crowdfunding, I've come to realize that there are differences in legislations between countries that one really should know about. At the moment, I feel that the general part Crowd_funding#Investment_Crowdfunding and the following part regarding the US are good. However, country-specific information is needed, especially on European countries. I will try and improve the section on Finland, but some legislation-savvy help on the other sections would be much appreciated. Savolmi (talk) 06:48, 1 July 2013 (UTC)

  • I consider removing direct links in the Ireland section since these can be seen as purely commercial promotion. Alex_editorwiki

With the JOBS act and international adoption, is it perhaps time for Equity Crowdfunding to have its own page? Peterjthomson (talk) 23:57, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

References[edit]

Content of the "Related definitions" section[edit]

The first two paragraphs of the "Related definitions" section do not seem to belong there in my opinion. They do not seem to refer to "Related definitions" as the heading suggests. These two paragraphs should be removed from this section, but I am not sure where they should go. Can anyone suggest a better section it should fall under? Or maybe a new section should be added? Jegcsc (talk) 07:06, 10 February 2013 (UTC)

Crowd-resourcing[edit]

Crowdfunding is an emerging field, so I'm not sure if new types of crowdfunding platforms belong as new sections, or in the beginning in defining the term. Crowd-resourcing is an emerging type of platform wherein users can do more than just raise funds. ioby, sometimes referred to as a civic crowdfunding platform, developed this model so that people leading projects in public space could raise funds, recruit volunteers and share ideas. I'm Erin Barnes, one of the cofounders of ioby, so I know I have a conflict of interest, but we've had a ton of press that describes how we work, like this lengthy story in Next American City. http://nextcity.org/daily/entry/forefront-excerpt-when-were-all-urban-planners — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erinbarnes (talkcontribs) 16:51, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Merger from "civic crowdfunding"[edit]

I propose merging "civic crowdfunding" into this article. Basically, how is "civic crowdfunding" any different than "crowd funding"? (Indeed, is "crowdfunding" different than "crowd funding"?) In the world of philanthropy, crowd funding is simply a method by which donations are obtained; it is a type of fundraising or charity for various worthwhile goals. The goals of the fundraising may differ; e.g., earthquake relief for Haiti, medical care for a sick child, a civic project such as a statue, etc. People can ring bells at store doors, go door to door, send out mailers, etc., but the ultimate object/endpoint is the same – to raise money. In the world of non-charity fundraising, the goal may be to start up a new business, either for profit or non-profit. Again, the goal may differ, but the crowd funding method is the same – small or large donations/contributions/participation by individuals through the Internet. As this article is about the crowd funding method, it should be the only one devoted to the subject. (And it can distinguish between the different goals of crowd funding.) Also, it can list the various crowd funding avenues which exist. As crowd funding is largely an Internet methodology, it remains a focused article. (There were no people who said "We are using 'crowd funding' to raise money for the pedestal for the Statue of Liberty.) There are already different articles which discuss the different goals of fundraising; e.g., the charities of different types and the various methods raising of capital. – S. Rich (talk) 22:47, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

So would you propose merging preference revelation into public finance? --Xerographica (talk) 23:07, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
Entirely different issues. Please don't seek to muddy the water with arguments that do not address this proposed merger. You can and should say "Support", "Oppose", or whatever. – S. Rich (talk) 23:25, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
I'm not trying to muddy the water...I'm trying to understand your logic. Civic crowdfunding is obviously a type of crowdfunding. Therefore it can certainly have its own section within the crowdfunding article. However, you seem to feel that it can't also have its own article. But there are plenty of topics...like preference revelation...that have their own sections in other articles but also have their own dedicated articles. Why is it acceptable in that case but not in this case? --Xerographica (talk) 00:40, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
"Preference revelation" is not a type of "public finance"; if it didn't deserve a separate article, it could be rationally be merged into revealed preference, or possibly in to one of the public choice articles, and it shouldn't have a large section in more than one of the "public choice" articles, but it's not the same thing. (I don't think it should have a large section in any of the public choice articles, but I could be convinced otherwise.) — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:51, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Rich also suggested merging preference revelation into revealed preference. But he wasn't able to explain why it was more preferable to merge preference revelation into revealed preference rather than into contingent valuation... Talk:Preference_revelation#Removal_of_relevant_reliable_sources. So let me ask you. Why would you redirect "preference revelation" to "revealed preference" rather than to "contingent valuation"? --Xerographica (talk) 01:02, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── These are tangents – tenuous tangents. Would all interested editors please address the topic at hand. Should civic crowdfunding be merged? I've provided a rationale: crowdfunding is the means of raising funds and "civic" or charity or business capital, whatever, is the beneficiary of such funding. The one article can handle the topic quite well. – S. Rich (talk) 01:20, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

They are tangents, and even if X's comments on preference revelation were correct, they wouldn't apply here — there is no other appropriate subject of which civic crowdfunding is a subset. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 01:34, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Rich, given the quantity and quality of reliable sources on the topic of civic crowdfunding, I strongly oppose the merge. But because I'm still trying to understand your logic...I'd be interested to know why you'd prefer to merge civic crowdfunding into this article rather than into public finance. Speaking of which, how are you and Rubin doing on that article? Making a lot of significant improvements? Talk:Public_finance#Preference_revelation --Xerographica (talk) 01:42, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Reply by OP – If you think that merging civic crowdfunding into public finance is a good idea, then say so. (But that is not the proposal presented.) In any event, don't attribute positions to me which I have not presented, especially vis-a-vis the rationale presented above. As for your questions, I do not find them helpful – they do nothing, absolutely nothing, to advance the discussion here. – S. Rich (talk) 06:29, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Civic crowdfunding should definitely have a section in public finance...but it absolutely should not be merged into public finance. Regarding my questions...that's really too bad that you don't find them helpful. But you're certainly more than welcome to stop harassing me... Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive786#User:Xerographica. --Xerographica (talk) 06:49, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Mild Oppose - The usual rule is that you group similar concepts into a single article until the article gets too long (at about 50,000 characters) - at that point, you find the most prominent parts of the concept and spin them off into their own articles - replacing them with short summaries and a "See Also" link to the new article. Have them refer back to the parent prominently (usually in the lede). Merging related articles is the same process in reverse. If the merged article would be significantly less than 50,000 characters - then maybe it's worth merging to make a stronger, more substantial article - if the result would be significantly over 50,000 - then probably not. Right now, Crowd funding is 48kB and Civic crowdfunding is 6kB - unless the merger resulted in almost no increase in size of the present article, this would seem to be a bad idea because the first thing we'd want to do after the merger would be to split it again. SteveBaker (talk) 01:43, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Reply by OPthis article needs work. It is full of jargon and promotional material, perhaps C&P'd from sources. I've added a hatnote for the comparison article which is a better avenue to describe the different projects out there. (Indeed, culling individual projects from this article would help avoid UNDUE.) Good editing would reduce the kB count and produce a better product. – S. Rich (talk) 02:48, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
Reply by OP – worthy of a mention in this article, but is sufficiently independent of the basic article to merit its own article. – S. Rich (talk) 02:48, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Support - I think we can agree that civic crowdfunding is a subset of crowdfunding; it is a type that relates to a specific, relatively new (compared to crowdfunding itself) application, yet holds a lot of potential as a prominent concept itself. That being said, the concept has not be effected enough, nor researched enough, to be considered proven and demonstrable and to justify it as a viable, mainstream method rather than a fad or niche application; the concepts alone are still largely considered buzzwords, with nebulous meanings that are yet to be fully and accurately defined. If the biggest objection to the merger is the digital size, I agree with Rich: the only things of value on the civic crowdfunding page are some of the See Also material and snippets of phrasing. The Modern examples seem like one person's narrow view of the topic and heavily reliant on recent news, rather than a representative overview of the areas in which civic crowdfunding can contribute. Already, the concept is hinted at or alluded to in the crowd_funding#Crowdfunding_applications section, and just needs formulation and formalization from existing material. Sothisislife101 (talk) 02:26, 28 March 2013 (UTC)
  • Support Civic crowd funding is indeed a subset. It should be merged. Capitalismojo (talk) 01:37, 10 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose Civic crowdfunding differs fundamentally in that it is an outlet of public policy rather than a practice of businesses and Non-profit organizations. A better question than merger is whether we should spin out a page for equity crowdfunding to differentiate from philanthropic crowdfunding. We're already suffering from bloat by combining these two types of crowdfunding when they are significantly different in their functions, purposes and processes. Celtechm (talk) 01:31, 27 April 2013 (UTC)
  • Support, and merge restored from August 2013. There is no reason the paragraph in civic crowdfunding couldn't be added to the section here on "Philanthropy and civic projects"; the article is moderately long, but spinning off a paragraph serves little purpose. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 20:17, 27 January 2014 (UTC)

Synergy of Design Patents and Crowdfunding[edit]

User:Ronz correctly points out that this is a self cite:

Design patents in particular, have been effective at protecting against on-line counterfeits of crowdfunded projects.Nowotarski, Mark, “The Power of Policing Trademarks and Design Patents”, IPWatchdog, 25 September 2013.

I will leave it here to see if there are any seconds. If anyone has any questions about the content I would be happy to address them. --Nowa (talk) 23:45, 8 December 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for following up. Are there other sources we could use to verify adding the same or similar content? --Ronz (talk) 17:32, 9 December 2013 (UTC)
Good question. A Google search of "crowdfunding" "design patent" came up with these two references mentioning that design patents can be used to protect crowdfunding projects. [1] [2]. I don't know that anyone else has actually published a case study.--Nowa (talk) 01:33, 10 December 2013 (UTC)

Definition[edit]

The definition section of this article was previously unsourced and the second half needs citation. I have added a sourced definition from a document previously referenced in the entry. Please do not replace it or undo with unsourced/poorly cited material.

According to the sources, crowdfunding technically "usually involves the Internet" which makes it confusing with references to Mozart, etc. The cited materials claim that it evolved from crowdsourcing which seems to be a more accurate depiction of Mozart, Pulitzer, etc. I suggest that we move those examples to the crowdsourcing entry and explain that crowdfunding - which form the sources clearly seems to be an "Internet" thing - evolved from crowdsourcing which before computers was a way to do this.

Let's streamline this article and clarify exactly what corwdfunding is based on valid references from experts in the field. It also seems to have a lot of advert tone to it. A definition, history, types of crowdfunding seems like it would be much more efficient.

I propose we move these two paragraphs to the crowdsourcing article

An early precursor of the crowdsourcing business model was praenumeration, a subscription business model, which was used in the 17th century to finance book prints. Similar to crowdsourcing, an additional benefit to donors was offered like a mention on the title page.[citation needed] Then in 1884, the American Committee for the Statue of Liberty ran out of funds for the Statue’s pedestal. Newspaper publisher Joseph Pulitzer urged the American public to donate money toward the pedestal in his newspaper New York World. Pulitzer raised over US$100,000 in six months. More than 125,000 people contributed to the cause, with most donations being US$1 or less.[6][7]

Crowdsourcing was also used in music as far back as the 18th century. In 1783, Mozart used crowdsourcing to raise money to perform three concertos in a Viennese concert hall. In exchange for backing this effort, Mozart offered manuscripts of the concertos. He did not initially meet his funding goal, but two years after his first attempt, 176 backers pledged enough money to finance the performance.[8]

I also propose that we remove the unsourced "definition" in the second part of the opening statement unless a proper citation is provided.

~ I found an oxford dictionary definition of crowdfunding and am posting it now with citation. Let's now make this article consistent with the definition - ie. Internet. Sound good? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.189.179 (talkcontribs)

Well, no. The definitions say that crowdfunding "usually" or "typically" involves the Internet; that doesn't make it part of the definition. It would be nice to have definitions separating crowdfunding from (financial) crowdsourcing, but crowdsourcing includes models where non-financial support may be provided by "crowds", and also "especially" from online communities. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:40, 23 July 2014 (UTC)
Exactly, I agree. The definition is still a little fuzzy but seems to necessitate the internet, social media or online community in some way in order to differentiate. Otherwise I am not sure if this article even needs to exist. It could simply say "is a synonym for patronage" and we are done. The edits made are already helping to clarify it for sure. I also agree 100% that introducing "crowdsourcing" into this article adds to the confusion. Further the references to antiquated patronage instances further complicates things. Anything poorly cited should also be immediately taken out. There seem to be lots of adverts here. Thanks for joining in. Let's work together to get this in shape! ~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.189.179 (talk) 03:29, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
ARuben - Excellent edit for definition. You nailed it! Short and to the point. Thank you for your help with this. What do you think about the references to Pulitzer, Mozart, etc. ? It seems to me that those entries are less about crowdfunding and more about patronage. Perhaps we can edit this article to say something like "Patronage was early precursor to Crowdfunding and Crowdsourcing" and reference the Patronage article - moving those over to that article. I just find it confusing to read that crowdfunding is "typically over the Internet" and involves a "platform" and see those references which are actually to patronage since there was clearly no internet, social media, platforms whatsoever at that time. I see the rationale in trying to show a connection but is was patronage which actually was precursor to lots of things including "not for profit" coprporations. Let me know your thoughts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.71.189.179 (talk) 03:20, 25 July 2014 (UTC)
Another thought. THe Mozart reference is actually to a blog on the site Kickstarter. I think this should be removed as it assumes the statement that Crowdfunding was actually a precursor (they talk about the Pope Kickstarting it) and it is pretty self serving and advert like. I don't think it adds anything but could be useful in the Praenumeration or patronage article. Here is what I propose:

1. remove the bulk of the Pulitzer reference to a history section in Preanumeration and possibly mention that some consider preanumeration to be an early precursor to Crowdfunding. 2. Move the Mozart reference to the patronage article for the reasons stated above.

The reason being is that neither could have possibly used the Internet or a "platform" in the context of crowdfunding. It is all good information but maybe references to other more appropriate articles so we can get the history section down to a manageable size. it is a pretty big article! 74.71.189.179 (talk) 02:28, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

Working on the history section now as well. It is a bit convoluted and long so I am going to propose that we either do strict chronological list of "events" or split it up into two sections: Companies and significant campaigns which will each be chronological. I do think a distinction of company from campaign is smart. I also think that "signicant campaigns" could be asking for one huge advert. Maybe break that out into another page and reference it? Same with a list of companies. Perhaps the first few pioneers and then break out into another page to let folks list the next 500+. I'm not sure. Need some suggestions here if you have any. Looking way better already though. 74.71.189.179 (talk) 02:28, 26 July 2014 (UTC)

I think the place to list all of the sites by category is Comparison_of_crowd_funding_services. The table can be modified and replicated for all of the various types of crowdfunding sites. 74.71.189.179 (talk) 15:31, 27 July 2014 (UTC)

Did some refining and re-organizing especially in the History section. I think it was best to fold in the "Music"and Film" sections in to the "Significant Campaigns" section else we have a huge list as this article grows. Most of the information was left in. I think it will be much easier to add sub-categories to the Significant Campaigns section with a handful of references (significant) under each. The Kickstarter section is definitely important as they are currently the biggest player but perhaps this warrants a "Significant Companies" section (earliest, highest grossing or number of projects, etc.) instead of a list of all of their top campaigns. Seems like an advert. Let's discuss. 74.71.189.179 (talk) 17:45, 27 July 2014 (UTC)