Talk:Crusades

Deus (lo) volt (or vult)

There seems to be a question of what the crusaders' motto might have been. I assumed it was Deus lo volt because that is the name of the book: Even S. Connell, Deus lo volt! Chronicle of the Crusades (Washington, D.C. 2000) ISBN: 1582430659

However see: http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/latinlanguage/f/DeusLoVult.htm which implies that Deus lo volt is a lower class corruption of the classical latin: Deus vult. I presume we should change the text to: Deus vult. RobLandau (talk) 15:47, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think "lower class" properly describes it. At the time of the Crusades, few except the clergy would speak "proper" Latin (and even then a medieval church dialect that would probably have been largely incomprehensible to e.g. Cicero). "Vulgar Latin" had already started to differentiate into what would become different romance languages. Also, of course, medieval people were far less concerned about languages and uniform orthography than we are - i.e. they might record a spoken "vulgar" phrase in more formal language without even noticing. So the "motto" might well be any of many different forms, and, IIRC, different reports on the Council of Clermont differ in much more substantial points than the exact pronunciation of the rally cry. Also see Deus vult, which underlines the inconsistency on this particular point. To sum it up: We should probably not belabor this point, but go with any good source. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:51, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Medieval Latin and Ecclesiastical Latin are essentially the same as classical Latin, in the sense that Cicero would have found it strange to hear and read, but not incomprehensible. They're not so different that they would be considered dialects. In any case, Connell's book is certainly not a good source, since it's a novel. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:15, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

Connell's book is a very carefully researched novel and mentions the primary references -- readers are informed by it which is what I take the purpose of Further Reading to be.RobLandau (talk) 08:33, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think "Further Reading" is intended to promote a work of fiction, no matter how well-researched. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:49, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

It stands to reason that the rallying cry would be the equivalent of "God wills it!" in the native language of given crusaders. The Latin version(s) would probably be universal, but Frankish crusaders probably would have commonly used an Old French version, German crusaders would have used a Middle High German version, and so on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.72.200.10 (talk) 09:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Citations needed

I found a citation needed on a claim that there was violence against Jews. I don't have permission to edit, but I do have a source.

I'm not 100% sure about the format.

Editor: Jonathan Reilly Smith (1999) Oxford History of the Crusades, Oxford University Press.

With only the best intentions, Hobbit (talk) 11:06, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, and welcome to Wikipedia. Not sure what you mean about "not having permission to edit." This may be true at your end, but not at Wikipedia! Anybody can technically edit.

Since you are looking at the citation and I am not, the citation would need to be entered by you. Here is the format <ref>{{Cite book |first = Jonathan Reilly |last = Smith |authorlink = |coauthors = |title =Oxford History of the Crusades |publisher = [[Oxford University Press]] |date = 1999 |location = New York City? |pages = |url = |doi = |id = |isbn = ? }}</ref>. I would be nice, but not essential, to furnish page numbers, location where printed and isbn for credibility. Because these entries are widely debated it would be "nice", but not always possible, to furnish an online citation that we can all read. But hardcopy is fine. And it never changes!  :) Student7 (talk) 21:38, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 19 February 2012 (Old-Prussians were Baltic, not Slavic)

The Prussians are mislabeled as being "Slavic" when they are in truth "Baltic" under the section, "Norther Crusades" sub section Crusades of the Teutonic Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades#Crusades_of_the_Teutonic_Order) the 2nd paragraph "In 1229, responding to an appeal from the Duke of Poland, they began a crusade against the pagan Slavs of Prussia." should be changed to "In 1229, responding to an appeal from the Duke of Poland, they began a crusade against pagan Baltic Prussia."

Proof/evidence is found in the detailed articles on wikipedia such as http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Crusades http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussia_(region)#Old_Prussians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Crusade http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussians

Tall mohammad (talk) 06:01, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Not done: I googled "pagan Slavs of Prussia" and found many references to the pagan Slavic tribes which were in Prussia. That is the current meaning and it appears to be verifiable. If you find a reference which says that the tribes were baltic, we could change it to "...pagan tribes of Prussia." Thanks, Celestra (talk) 20:22, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Lead Section Assertion

"The Crusades had major far-reaching political, economic, and social impacts on western Europe, including causing the downfall of the Christian Byzantine Empire."

I have a number of problems with this line. The first half of it is bland and really doesn't say much; it's self-evident that a large number of ambitious military campaigns would have such impacts (and not just in western Europe). It strangely also seems to imply that the Byzantine empire was part of western Europe. My biggest problem is that it presents as fact a controversial assertion about the crusades' impact on the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, which seems to be only incompletely addressed (and heavily rebutted) in the Scholarly Debates section on the First Crusade. Unless someone would like to make sure this line is improved and properly addressed in the article, I recommend that it be deleted. (Posted March 1, 2012.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.72.200.10 (talk) 09:01, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

I dislike adjectives and will rm some of them. Let the reader decide about "far-reaching." It seems to me that the editor "reached pretty far" in inserting this.

The claim of "downfall" refers, I believe, to the Fourth Crusade where, due to an improbable series of events, the Crusaders, originally trying to reach Jerusalem, instead sacked Constantinople. The final goal was to place the "correct" leader on the throne there. The "correct" leader happened to be a Latin Church sympathizer. The Greek Orthodox claim to this day that this so weakened the city-state, that it collapsed in the face of Turkish onslaught in the mid 15th century (i.e. it never recovered). Student7 (talk) 13:27, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

At the very least the two terms ought to be separated. If the second term is to remain, it should probably just confine itself to the city, not the wider empire. Laurel Lodged (talk) 20:29, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

the franks

the franks are not people from France... They were the germans. The article is incorrect. see here: http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/westeurope/Franks.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ddequattro (talk • contribs) 03:36, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

Originally they were a Germanic tribe, but that was hundreds of years before the Crusades. That is where the name of "France" comes from, and crusaders from France tended to call themselves "Franks", as did the Muslims and sometimes the Greeks. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:30, 5 March 2012 (UTC)