Talk:Cuckold
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[edit] Forum
âFrom a forum I frequent:
Here in Iberia we have a name for people that get cheated on by their "better halves" - cornudo, or horned person. We even have a hand sign to symbolize it; in the US it's normally taken as the devil's sign
I thought it was interesting that the association of horns with being the victim of infidelity would appear in two very diffent cultures.
- Same in Italy (cornuto) and Greece (keratas).
I've heard something about cutting off a cock's ankle spurs and attaching them to its head... and this having something to do with it..
No that whole part is silly. Italy and Greece will use the same term because it refers to the Minotaur. Look up the myth and see how the King did not know that his wife has sex with Zeus in the form of a bull until the birth. --BenWoodruff 13:50, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Legal Derivations
The man need not necessarily be unaware of his wife's adultery. Under the common law of England, and in many states of the United States until fairly recently, there was a conclusive presumption, "the strongest known to the law," that the child of a married woman is the child of her husband. Thus, if a man was married to an adultress, it is possible that she would be able to pass off spurious issue and, in effect, require him to support children who are not his.
In England, it was once the law, and technically may still, be that if a person has sexual intercoure with the King's wife or with the wife of the heir to the throne, he is guilty of treason and liable to be put to death, as he might pass spurious issue off on the King and the country. Charles and Diana, fortunately for them, were permitted to get divorce.
John Paul Parks (talk) 17:20, 9 May 2009 (UTC)
[edit] fetish entry
This needs to be rewritten into about a sentence and placed in a "see also" section. The biological/sociological meaning of cuckold (which is not in this article) should also be added, as it is actually widespread and relevant.
[edit] "interracial-cuckold."
It should also be noted that by far the most commmon form of cuckolding is the "interracial-cuckold." This almost always involves a white couple and a black male. The premise of this cuckold is that black males are sexually superior to their white counterparts. They are stronger, have more stamina and larger genetalia than the white husband. Because of this the white wife might deny her husband in the bedroom, forcing him to watch her copulate with the dominant "black bull", often relegated to simple masturbation. In part, the cuckold is seen as "reparation" for the treatment of the black man by the white historically. The "reparation" is that the white man's greatest "prize", the white woman, now prefers the more sexually potent black man.
This entire entry seems to some degree spurious & POV. Reparation itself is an organized social phenomenon, whereby government which has abetted ill treatment officially relents with what is seen as fair counter action. Private matters don't fall under 'reparation' of any kind. Many POV statements, as in "the premise of this....is that...are sexually superior", "now prefers", "greatest prize", and the "most common form." It doesn't conform to the standards of an encyclopedia. 67.5.213.148 13:34, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
The word the author was looking for would be rettribution. Why? Because here in the Americas non white men, and in a literaly sense for black men, were forced to watch their women be taken willingly and unwillingly in front of thier eyes. They had to watch as some women gothe idea inthier heads to look for the whitest lightest man they could get in hopes of having lighter andlighter children who could pass for white. In the U.S. from 1620 to 1960 white was right. Now everything is backward. White women seem to like black men and some black women who would have scorned black men in the past now jealously guard access to black men by white women.
So I will change the word to Retribution or Revenge. Because that's the feeling black men get from being wiht white women. --Hfarmer 21:07, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Is there any research based evidence for this? If not, this whole portion of the article should be removed since there is no verifiable supporting evidence. Check out the Wikipedia policy on verifiability. [1]
--BBUCommander 19:43, 25 February 2006 (EST)
I dont think there is a lot of research on this, but if one wanted to investigate themself they'd see thata forum called cuckold-forum.net verifies that the initial poster is right on
I seriously doubt that a majority of cuckhold situations have the cuckold actively thinking about the historical situation, or 'white guilt.' The idea of stronger, bigger, better might be going through there head, but nothing of a historic nature. And Hfarmer as for your comment, if black men get a feeling of reparations, or payback or whatever from having relations with white women that is a very twisted thing. I hope, and believe, it is not true.
That "interracial is the most common" thing is ridiculous, whoever wrote it was misleaded by PORN movies. Besides, the reparation theory would only fit in the USA. I live in an european country and swingers (in all their forms) just do it with whites, blacks, asians, regardless of our history.
Oh, and why does the cuckoldry thing only applies to a dominant woman? I'd say it's far more common for a man to have a wife/girlfriend who somehow allows him to be with another female. At least in here. No name for that?
The term cuckold has become attached to the the idea of a dominant woman because it represents humiliation of the(sub)male. Most cuckold sites appear to be very much about male fantasy and look more like 70's style wife swapping. I think it would be better if there WERE a name (wife swapping, perhaps!) for this fairly distinct activity since it clearly has little to do with the original meaning of the term cuckold. I'm sure that the use of the term cuckold in this respect comes from a lack of understanding of even the basic meaning of the word. -Spamrot-
[edit] Ridiculous!
The interracial-cuckold excerpt from this article is nothing more than stereotypical non-sense appealing only to ignorant individuals over generalizing the gender of a specific ethnic group of people. --User:Voice of Reason April 2005 (CST)
I modified the racial portion to be more explicit without being offensive. A key element of Cuckholding is evidenced as men who have sexual fantasies of being humiliated by having someone with "larger equipment" have sex with their wife, and their wife making fun of their "smaller equipment". I think there is no doubt that when some small portion of that sub-culture finds arousal based on the racial-stereotype that black men have larger endowements that it is racist. But -- we don't strive to ignore racism, or erase any evidence of racism, we should strive to underline it and point it out until the culture changes. A neutral POV should accurately point out what happens in culture, not strive to ignore and avoid comment on aspects of culture that are undesirable. -- Atomaton April 2005
- I see this entire point has been removed? I think this was best as my theory is that the black men being more endowed theory is a white man's racist urban myth spread to instil the fear of rape in deep south American women, possibly from earlier part of 20th century. Think about it - a larger penis would hurt more and cause greater damage. But still, this joke is socially acceptable within many groups yet we never question our beliefs, where they come from and more importantly - what their implications are! leopheard 08:13, 19 May 2007 (UTC)
- Why remove the entire section on interracial-cuckold? I did a google search for the term and got 727,000 hits. Clearly this a significant kink/interest. One could possibly have a section/paragraph on about this kink being grounded in racism if one could find a reliable third party source. Otherwise, it seems best to just report about the phenomynon without editorializing about it's motives or whether it is a good or bad kink.
Hoping To Help (talk) 23:39, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Should this be removed?
"In addition, and ironically, according to unconfirmed anecdotes from employees at adult video stores, "interracial" (black male/white female) pornography is most often bought by white men, and relatively seldom by black men or white women."
But then, isn't most of ALL video pornography purchased at adult video stores purchased by white men, and seldom by black men or white women? Isn't Lesbian genre, Homosexual Genre, Large-Breasted Women Genre, Bukkake Genre, Bondage Genre and for that matter all Genre's of Pornography largely purchased by white men? If so, doesn't the original comment lose value, and in fact suggest racism of some kind when that isn't the case? -- Atomaton, April 2006
Good point, Atomaton. I have worked at an adult video store for the last three years and in my experience the first quote is misleading. Black male/white female movies are popular with black males and white females as well.
[edit] Unecessary Revert - 12:21, 7 April 2006 Gwernol (Revert to revision 47154900 using popups)
In the process of editing, I see a revert to a much older version that removes all of my changes.
Rather than reverting it myself, I'm first going to ask why User Gwernol removed my attempt to repair the page and remove the POV issues that were previously an issue. If she has a disagreement with the changes in some way, why don't we discuss that on the talk page and find common ground rather than reverting what I consider to be an hours worth of meaningful editing and changes? -- Atomaton, April 2006.
- Hi, I've removed my revert. This was an attempt to remove what appeared to be vandalism to the article - in particular the addition of the reference to creampie seem(ed) egregious. I am happy to withdraw my revert since there is clearly a good faith effort here to improve the article. Good luck, Gwernol 13:01, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Remove NPOV objection?
I'd like to remove the NPOV marker if possible, and clean up the article further. The edits I made to clarify the racial aspect hopefully do that, does anyone feel that it is still not NPOV? And if so, why?
One person said to me "Recent Usage section needs sources for much of what it discusses". As this area is a subculture of human sexuality, and has little to no scientific research in it, there isn't yet anything other than anecdotal and personal viewpoints on the matter. Atomaton 14:43, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I have a different take on cuckoldry. I don't see it as a fetish. I believe it is as naturally occuring and a part of human evolution.
There is diversity among humans and that diversity gives us an evolutionary advantage. The bull or alpha male is not a a distinct advantage in passing on his genes. His sperm is often removed by the cuckold through oral sex and through conventional intercourse. Being that the cuckold often has a smaller penis that the bull and the wife's vagina is stretched by the bull the cuckold's penis acts like a scoop and removes the bull's sperm.
Then we have the sperm war scenario. The cuckold produces more killer sperm and a greater volume of killer sperm. This happens as a result of being exciting by the prospect of his mate cheating. I bleive the cuckold response is hardwired in many non-alpha males.
Overall, I see the type of cuckoldry practised today consistent with what probabaly went on with our earliest ancestors.
[edit] Multiple edits by anon user
Thought I would point out the large number of anonymous edits (diff), with no summary, by 64.46.13.21 (talk). I can't determine if these edits are constructive or not, but in one case, a working internal link was broken. --KeithB 21:09, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
[edit] The links at the bottom are vandalism
In answer to KeithB above, I would say those edits were not constructive, they appear to have placed sly advertisements for porn sites as "further reading", but even more wrong, the index page is a misleading rant of garbage.
The wikipedia article also appears to me to be peppered by someone who is quite into the "cuckold" fantasy, and therefore the neutrality and objectivity of the article (appears to me) to be skewed.
First, the links at the bottom of the article for suggested "further reading" are all advocate sites of the "cuckold" fantasy, and as such, they offer only incredibly skewed rants as to how all females are hard-wired to be "sluts".
Also, listing the author of the site as "sex therapist and relationship counsellor Susan Gower" is extremely misleading, as the site is nothing more than a collection of clicks-for-cash, with no more insiteful material than what is on the first page, and this information is also false.
For example, here is a quote from the index page of the referenced "http://www.hotwifenetwork.com/"
"The second is a desire to obtain a variety of the best genetic material to produce the best children. This second desire begins to grow once a woman has found her life mate and grows stronger as time with him progresses. Eventually, this later and more powerful drive overpowers her sexual desire for her life mate. This is why a woman's sexual desire for her husband diminishes over time. At the same time her sexual desire for other men is increasing. Often this desire for other men becomes so strong she cannot deny it. This does not make her immoral or mean that she no longer loves her husband. It is simply part of her genetic code."
Problems? How does "obtaining a variety of the best genetic material" produce the best children? Only a single sperm from a single donor will in any likelihood be involved in making a child, not "a variety" by any means, certainly not a driving force in evolution itself promoting "cuckoldry". This is silly fantasy talk. The rest of the paragraph is based on this initial false statement. Furthermore, suggesting as fact that all women (or men for that mater) are "genetically coded" to cheat has been scientifically proven to be false in a number of scientific studies. Also, suggesting that "cheating" does not make someone immoral is an opinion, as "cheating" is, by definition, immoral. To illustrate; immoral generally means "wrong" (http://www.answers.com/morality&r=67), and "wrong" by definition, causes suffering, then cheating on someone is only not "immoral" if the person who was cheated on did not suffer).
And that was only the second paragraph, the first explaining that the "cuckold" fantasy is "unarguably [...] most compatible with basic human evolutionary make up". Wow. Now considering that according to the Wikipedia article on Divorce, "Extra-marital affairs" is the leading cause of divorce (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divorce#Statistics), and divorce being quite a problem as far as raising healthy children goes, "cuckolding" is only compatible with evolution when both parties wish to participate in the fantasy, and with divorce statistics being what they are (27% occur because of "cheating", more than any other reason, and males are more prone to it than females), and any quick search on any message board or reputable newsgroup will quickly reveal that 3 out of 4 "cuckolding" fantasies that are actually played out will directly lead to the end of the relationship, my first guess is that "cuckolding" is not quite as popular as the author believes; certainly not "genetic".
Now if someone was just cheated on, and looked up this wikipedia article in hopes of coping with it, and then reads the bullox on hotwifenetwork from "sex therapist and relationship counsellor Susan Gower", they may be inclined to believe this world is a horrible place in which all females are genetically forced to inevitably "gather a variety of sperm", even though all the evidence in the world says otherwise.
So I removed those links, I hope people will agree that they are not based in reality and were placed by a vandal.
You would not list "jugs.com" for further reading on breast fetishes. So listing "www.hotwifenetwork.com" for further reading on cuckolding is absurd at best.
-Onexdata 16 November 2006
[edit] "Cucks" vs. cuckoldry in general
There seems to be a disproportionate amount of interest in cuckoldry as a sexual fetish. It might make sense to have a separate article for this ("cuckoldry fetishism," with a "cuck" redirect?), given that most of the writing is on this phenomenon--which is distinct from the use of the term "cuckoldry" to refer to clandestine extrapair copulation, which is more common and arguably more scientifically and socially significant (e.g., sexual selection pressures on men and male animals, and the cultural significance of sexual infidelity and men's strategies for isolating partners, constraining female sexual choice, etc.), even if this isn't yet well represented in the article. Delmonte 13:56, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
[edit] "Much more frequently"?
Although historically it was a term in general use, nowadays it is much more frequently associated with female domination, power exchange, sexual humiliation, erotic sexual denial or sexual fantasy based on those themes.
...I don't think so. (I've removed this sentence.) Twin Bird 16:40, 29 January 2007 (UTC)
- Agreed. This article is the only place I've come across fetishistic definition, and, honestly, I haven't lived that sheltered a life. AFAIK, the main current definition is the historic one, and the second most common -- used in sociology and genetics -- is a man whose wife has children by another man. The article really should mention this, as there's a fair scientific literature on it (versus no reliable sources for the fetish).CJGB (Chris) 23:25, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
[edit] External link
I read on the BDSM edit page that external links should be discussed. The website name may be a bit misleading, but I think http://www.cuckold-chastity-belt-stories.com should be listed as a external link because of the site's relevance to the article, the profuse information relating to cuckoldry, as well as it's tastefulness and being well structured. It does have questionable content, though. Faustus Tacitus 01:27, 30 May 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Cuckolding as a Dominant Voyeuristic Act
"The most extreme form of cuckolding is when the woman knowingly gets pregnant by her lover with the full knowledge and support of her husband." This is clearly a statement of opinion, not fact. Is it an example of a prevalent tendency within wikipedia to publish personal fetishistic ideas as established fact? Is there a relationship? I think we should be told. Also, since the section regarding sexual activity, as usual, include a high level of spurious opinion I support the proposal to move it to a separate page.
[edit] "hot wife"
ROFL, I changed this to just wife, I don't think "hot wife" is really needed and it really made it hard for me to take it seriously when I saw it. I think just wife will suffice. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.220.16.130 (talk) 18:05, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Additional Reference
Supporting literature regarding Aurora Romelin's divorce from Leopold von Sacher-Masoch with respect to her lack of interest in having him become a cuckold husband. In 1990 her memoir of their most unusual marriage was translated from the 1907 French publication into English by Marian Phillips, Caroline Hebert, and V.Vale, and published by ReSearch Publications in San Francisco. The translation is entitled, The Confessions of Wanda von Sacher Masoch. It is considered to be a "feminist classic". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilith23 (talk • contribs) 04:55, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Roman empire
I separated out the claim that this 'horned' term dates from the Roman Empire, from the descriptions of relatively modern usage. The consul Papirius gave golden collars and "cornicula" as a reward to his horsemen, however the word means helmet crests, not horns. There is no indication that this particular decoration - as opposed to laurel wreaths, etc - was particularly associated with cuckoldry. Neither Catullus, Martial, Petronius nor Apuleius used the word 'cornutus' to describe the several cuckolds that they mocked. I have therefore flagged this claim as requiring verification. --Nantonos (talk) 07:01, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
[edit] .... without a feminine counterpart
The opening information states that it is one of the few English words "without a feminine counterpart," but at the end of the article it states that there is (Cuckquean). Which is it? 66.191.19.217 (talk) 22:20, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
- I've commented out the "Cuckqueen" section because it's obvious that Dan Savage was just making up the word; as the opening para states, there's no recognised feminine equivalent. — Hugh 10:05, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Layout suggestion
Just a minor layout suggestion. The 'History' section should probably follow the 'Cultural usage' section or be included in the 'History of the term' section. Thoughts? Surv1v4l1st (Talk|Contribs) 13:57, 17 July 2009 (UTC)
