Talk:Cumbria

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Lancashire and Cumbria (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Lancashire and Cumbria, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Lancashire and Cumbria on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject UK geography (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article falls within the scope of WikiProject UK geography, a user-group dedicated to building a comprehensive and quality guide to places in the United Kingdom on Wikipedia. If you wish to participate, share ideas or merely get tips you can join us at the project page where there are resources, to do lists and guidelines on how to write about settlements.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject England (Rated B-class, High-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject England, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of England on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 High  This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Geography[edit]

Revision as of 14:41, 16 May 2006

To-do list for Cumbria:
edit - history - watch - refresh 

Summary history section with su-page at History of Cumbria Physical geography section, including geology, landscape, ecology and climate, with possible sub-page at Geology of Cumbria Tourism section, and possibly industry and culture sections as well, with sub-pages if neccesary Populate Category:Natives of Cumbria and remove the people from the places of intrest section - they don't mix very well! Turn the settlements section into a summary of the main towns and cities; the list goes on List of places in Cumbria Add icons to the places of interes list using Template:EngPlacesKey Populate Category:Villages in Cumbria Add photos to the Cumbria images gallery

Ethnicity[edit]

For information, the suppression of revert of today (about "ethnicity" statistics) are presently subject of debate on the French-speaking Village pump fr:Wikipedia:Le Bistro. Refer there if you want to understand what happened. --French Tourist 18:06, 16 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Cumbric language[edit]

Surely the Cumbric language should be mentioned somewhere here? It was a distinct language centred on Cumbria until at least the 12th century. Certainly part of Cumbria's history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.175.134.37 (talk) 23:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Read the article, it is mentioned.GordyB (talk) 23:57, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Celtic Cumbria?[edit]

"Cumbria remains one of the most Celtic areas of England." -- what does this mean?

LuiKhuntek 06:11, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Celtic culture is very prominant in Cumbria where as in other parts of England it is not so. Peculiar Cumbrian traditions such as Cumbrian wrestling and cheese rolling, in addition to Cumbric counting, coupled with visible elements of Celtic crosses and passed down legends in mythology and fable also make this so. Enzedbrit 02:20, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

I see someone has removed the statement about Cumbria remaining Celtic. That Cumbria acknowledges a Celtic heritage from festival to sport and tradition is a strong indicator of thisEnzedbrit 20:31, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

And somebody else removed my talk page explanation of the removal. Cumbria is not Celtic, all the 'peculiar Celtic tradition' aren't Celtic at all or to be found all over England. THis statement is highly POV and unsubstantiated.GordyB 21:18, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

perhaps there can be a way of including the information without making it so controversial? Along the lines of "some of cumbria's sport and mythological heritage bear a noticeable resemblence to celtic traditions, and may well have developed out of Cumbria's celtic past." And then detail them after that. Perhaps at the end of that section you could mentions that "a number of other counties in England which are not considered so noticeably celtic also have similar festival and sport traditions which suggests the origins of these markers of rural British culture may be more complex than being simply either Celtic or Anglo Saxon".Ammi 13:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

That's very nobel Ammi and I see what you're trying to do, but that is actually watering down a truth. These things ARE Celtic, HAVE remained from the Celtic past. That Cumbria is not in Scotland or Wales doesn't mean that such things must be brought into question. All of Britain has a Celtic heritage but in Cumbria, they have remained stronger due to a lesser influence from subsequent invasions of Britain. It is also not to the detriment of Cumbria or the Celtic countries that all of England retains a Celtic heritage. If anything, this heritage should be better identified. I have backed up my POV with minor snippets of actuality, and no doubt other contributors will do the same. Enzedbrit 20:26, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia policy where there is a disagreement about the veracity of a statement is to try and produce a neutral point of view based on a balence between the two opinions. There are obviously those here who do not believe that those traditions in Cumbria are necessarily different enough from, for example, anglo-saxon traditions, or viking, for it to merit them being accredited to the nations Celtic past. If they are able to provide published statements that support their theory that eg. the cumberland/westmorland method of wrestling is not sufficiently uniquely celtic in style for it to be accredited to Cumbria's (or indeed Britain's) celtic history, (as you have offered to provide published evidence for the idea that they do come from a Celtic origin) then they would be justified in wanting both perspectives to be applied to the argument. It is in no way noble it is simply Wikipedia policy, as there are bound to be those who hold a differing opinion, I recommend that we supply sources where we can for each perspective which then can be cited within the article. This is the next step to improving the quality of the article to a high standard, which is, after all, what we are all aiming for. A peer review on this article at the present would most likely say that it cites too few sources and does not contain a balence of multiple points of view, so it is where we should be trying to head anyway.
You've done well so far on providing evidence to back up the suggestion that these cultural traditions are Celtic (the traces of cumbric in the cumbrian dialect, the existance of Rheged as the Celtic kingdom in England that lasted the longest against viking incursion, and the name given to the area by the welsh). BUT, there are those that would argue that the influx of Norwegian and Danish Vikings and the spread of Anglo-Saxon culture means that while it may have survived as a celtic nation for the longest (alongside cornwall), this does not mean that it has the strongest celtic tradition surviving today out of all the English counties. The length of time doesn't always balence well with the intensity of the cultural revolution of the county. Do you have any suggestions as to where you could find sources for your statements to continue to strengthen your argument? Ammi 17:29, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
You also keep inserting 'Cumbria is one of the most Celtic areas of England' as if this was a fact. It is an opinion and one that is not sourced i.e. exactly who considers Cumbria to be Celtic. Even Celtic nationalist groups very rarely make this claim. Try putting something less POV.GordyB 22:47, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
I also removed the reference to sheep count, although this is Celtic, it is not a remnant of the Cumbric language. It derives from a Welsh migration to the North of England in IIRC the 14 th century. It is not unique to Cumbria (it was found all across the North and North Midlands), to my knowledge it is virtually extinct even amongst farmers.
Cumbrian and Westmoralnd wresting, again, is this really Celtic? Greeks wrestle, Romans wrestle - don't you think Anglo-Saxons and Norwegans wrestled as well. This needs to be substantiated as Celtic before being put in the same section.
I've left the reference to Celtic words in Cumbrian dialect for now. The separate article on Cumbrian dialect does not mention a Celtic influence and I do not know any Cumbrian words that did come from Cumbric. This needs to be substantiated or I will remove it. GordyB 22:57, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
[1] This source says that whilst Cornish wrestling is Celtic, Cumberland and Westmorland wrestling is probably of Viking origin, there is also Lancashire wrestling - are they Celtic as well?GordyB 23:02, 17 January 2007 (UTC)
a case study: cumberland/westmorland wrestling:
[1] this source classes Cumberland/Westmorland wrestling as a style also known as North Country or Scottish Backhold wrestling. It also states that it "evolved from Norse backhold wrestling" as does this one: [2] however it also states that "there has been no concrete evidence to support this theory".
However the Fédération International des Luttes Celtique [3] (international celtic wrestling federation) classes Cumberland/Westmorland wrestling as Celtic, and this source [4] states that backholding is "essentially celtic". A third site [5] classes scottish/cumberland backhold along with Cornish and Gouren (Brittany) styles, all under the same celtic heading.
It would seem that there is a fairly balenced argument for both, and I'm certain we will find the same with other aspects of cumbrian culture. (including the sheep counting method. I found a source that demonstrates how it would be impossible for it to have developed out of welsh as the higher numbers are entirely different from either modern or Old Welsh but are similar to Cumbric and brythonic styles. However their server is down so I cannot cite it until it is repaired. Nevertheless, it demonstrates that its origin is a matter of debate). It is important that both views are expressed on this page. -Ammi 15:15, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
This is better though I'd say with sheep count that it is too widespread to be Cumbric unless it survived all across the North and Morth Midlands. One site I read said that it was found in Derbyshire.GordyB 15:34, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
Ok, lets leave sheep counting until someone's had a chance to examine the sources properly. I too have read some that say it has spread as far south as shropshire (though being close to the Welsh border that's not wholly surprising), but I'll do my best now to expand the wrestling section of the culture of cumbria. Ammi 15:41, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
I think there is more than enough for a decent stub for Cumbrian wrestling as its own article.GordyB 16:10, 19 January 2007 (UTC)
makes sense, have started here. Cumberland and Westmorland wrestling but have not had the time to do any more than cut and paste, will expand later. Ammi 18:01, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

I've moved a cut down version to the sports section and wikified the main article.GordyB 18:24, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

thanks for that. Ammi 15:23, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

I removed references to the Cumbric influence on Cumbrian dialect. No justification for this was given and the Cumbrian dialect article states that most dialect words are of Norse origin.GordyB 20:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I think you went too far GordyB. The article describes the significance of Norse contribution both liguistically and genetically, but that does not mean the Celtic influence is insignificant. You might as well argue that the Celtic character of Dublin is overstated because we know it was actually founded by the Vikings.Ftjrwrites (talk) 18:09, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Mate. If you think that there is anything remotely Celtic about Cumbria then let's have your source and we'll include it.GordyB (talk) 00:00, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, we are most definitely NOT celtic in Cumbria. From the dialect to the names it is norse influence all the way.

Cumbria is mulicultural really. I know people who live here who have all sorts of ancestry. Most if not all would express their nationality as English or British. However we must recognise there is Scandinavian influence in terms of place-names particularly and some archaeological remains (e.g. Gosforth cross). But the Britons as Celts were here long before the English or Norse. And in the same way as we reckon Norse influence (transiently from 10th to 14th Centuries perhaps?) we must note Celtic influence in terms of place-names (Penrith, Carlisle, Torpenhow, Blencathra, Blennerhasset, etc, etc, etc) more than any other modern English county except Cornwall and the Cumbric language was a developed medieval language so wasn't "pre-English" but also post English in that it survived up to the 12th or 13th Centuries. There is also the yan, tyan, tethera, peddera, pimp which is clearly akin to Welsh. I know it has been said above that this is not Cumbric but the product of an undocumented Welsh immigration to Cumbria much later. This is a theory only and arguably the word giggot for 20 (Middle Welsh ugeint) shows a non-Welsh development of the common ancestor language Brittonic. The name Cumbrian by which people call themselves is identical in origin to Cymry/Cymru (i.e. Welsh/Wales) and was the name used by themselves and their English neighbours to describe the Cumbrians (the Norse seem to have called them Brets, ie Britons cf Birkby). So, in Cumbria's origins it is ignoring fact to deny any Celtic influence. But realistically why should we deny either? I think the Y chromosome markers showed Penrith had 15% Norwegian markers from memory, which was higher than anywhere else in England but still the vast majority genetic markers were what the programme called Ancient British. So, Cumbria is, after Cornwall, the English county with the most significant "Celtic" influence in terms of history and linguistic traces but it also has Scandinavian, Irish, Scottish, and now Pakistani, Indian, Chinese and all sorts of other influences.
In terms of references see Phythian Adams "Land of the Cumbrians" reviewed at http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=696 and also Dating Brittonic Place-names in Southern Scotland and Cumbria by Alan G. James in the Journal of Scottish Name Studies, Vol 5. Barcud Coch (talk) 14:21, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Towns[edit]

Please give some info on towns, e.g., what are the largest ones and if there are rail connections.

I tried to give you the top 5 towns which are 1. Barrow-in-Furness 2. Carlisle 3. Workington 4. Kendal 5. Whitehaven

i tried adding this but people delete it for some reason. hope this helps. (217.42.46.119 21:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC))

It keeps getting deleted because there is a section on towns already in the article Penrithguy 22:24, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes but it isn't it important to know what the major settlements are though in order as it would make it easier. (Cokes360 16:52, 21 May 2007 (UTC))

Something is wrong somewhere; on this page it says the population of Workington is 25,000, but on the Workington page it is about 10,000 more, which would place Workington higher on the list at 4th instead of 5th. Anyone have the exact figures so we can check this? Enton 11:09, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

More to the point, Keswick isn't on the top 12 list, but I'm fairly sure it has a population greater than 3000 (the lowest on there). -Riedquat 11:45, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

Celtic or Norse Cumbria?[edit]

I'm surprised to see it listed as one of the most celtic areas of England. I just saw the BBC series Blood of the Vikings and it said penrith, cumbria, had some of the highest amounts of norwegian viking blood in Britian. Just looked at it on the map and although im no expert id say names like ulverston and millnthorpe, thursby, possibly Ullswater, threllkeld are very norse (thor). Also on the program it said some of the local dialect used norse words.....

so... whats going on here?

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Cumbria" Categories: To do | To do, priority undefined

Celtic is not a 'blood' categorisation. There are lots of Viking names in Cumbria as there are Celtic names. One does not detract from the other. Enzedbrit 01:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Cumbria vs Cumberland[edit]

There seem to be many references to "Cumbrian" things which sound rather like they should be attributed to Cumberland.

Examples include:

  • Cumberland Wrestling not Cumbrian Wrestling
  • Cumberland Dialect not Cumbrian Dialect

Cumbria is a relatively new county and references to old traditions which have originally been placed as Cumberland don't automatically become Cumbrian! A Cumberland Sausage is still a Cumberland Sausage regardless of whether the county is Cumbria or not. I would suggest a few changes need to be made to correct these Cumbria / Cumberland references. --Neilajh 22:51, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Any such references I come across I'll make a point of changing them. Cumberland still exists, but the local authorities would have us believe otherwise. Arcturus 14:53, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Hang on a minute, the term 'Cumbrian' was used to denote people or things from Cumberland long before the new administrative county of Cumbria was formed in 1974. A Cumberland Sausage was and is a Cumberland Sausage, but was and is eaten by Cumbrians! Sir Andrew de Harcla 11:01, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Plus the cumberland dialect was also spoken in westmoreland. Ammi 16:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

The sausage is Cumberland, the dialect is Cumbrian, the wrestling is Cumberland & Westmoreland. Now I'll hoy this back to you. Charles Matthews 09:58, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Its Westmorland not Westmoreland Penrithguy 18:34, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

I've got an old history of 'Cumberland & Westmoreland' from the late 1700s/ early 1800s. So though common usage now is 'Westmorland', 'Westmoreland' is acceptable, just:-). Anyway, Westmorland's a nasty place, seeing its so far down south and full of large puddles I hear. Folk should come to Carlisle for their holidays . . .:-) (now that certainly is a joke!) Sir Andrew de Harcla 14:08, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

CfD[edit]

The related Category:Cumbria MPs has been nominated for deletion. You are encouraged to join the discussion on the Categories for Discussion page.

--Mais oui! 09:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Figures[edit]

the figures on this article are a bit odd - they don't add up. the total population is less than all of the districts added up, both sets of figures from this article. The actual town stats as well appear to be unreferenced, and are different to what a source says - that source being the Cumbria Fire and Rescue Service Website - this is at http://www.cumbriafire.gov.uk/services/operations/default.asp. By clicking on the statiions for the area, then clicking on the towns on the map, one can find the populations for the towns. Thanks, Stwalkerster talk review 12:28, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Egremont[edit]

Being a local I have noticed that Egremont is missing from the list of most populated settelements.

Its population according to http://cumbriacc.gov.uk/nbforumdata/cumbria/Forums.asp?ForumID=405&section=1

Is around 7970...

Im not confident that i can edit this page without making a mess so perhaps somebody else should try. 82.71.58.120 14:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)Chris

Disambiguation needed[edit]

This article focuses on Cumbria, the modern political entity, and fails to address in any detail the history and signficance of the pre-existing usage of the name Cumbria, though the article does allude to that older and broader meaning of the term. In fact, Cumbria is akin to Wales and Cornwall as one of the last areas of self-rule for the Britons and is very important for linguistic, archaeological and genetic studies. There is currently no Wiki article to discuss this older historic use of the term, and I believe that one is needed. It's certainly what I was looking for when I came across this site. Also, that would be the place where the Celtic/Nordic/Anglo-Saxon influence discussion could be explored more effectively. (Hint: Many different peoples can contribute to the same region. One might be dominant politically, another economically, another genetically, another linguistically, another religiously, etc. But each of them have descendants who squabble over their legacy in the most petty terms in the 21st century.) Ftjrwrites (talk) 18:17, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

It's pointless trying to categorise Cumbrians into Celtic / Anglo-Saxon or Norse. If you asked one which one they were they would look at like you were mad and reply that they were Cumbrian / English / Borders or British.GordyB (talk) 00:03, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:EH icon.png[edit]

Nuvola apps important.svg

Image:EH icon.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. BetacommandBot (talk) 05:16, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Cumbrian motto in Escut_Cumbria.png[edit]

Hi, sorry, i'm new to wiki, so please pardon me if i haven't done this correctly. I noticed the motto for Cumbria as shown in the Escut_Cumbria.png reads

AD NONTES OCULOS LEVAVI, i lifted my eyes to the mountains.

Other websites show ad montes.

An enquiry about the spelling of sent to the source of this image resulted in the host site changing the spelling to MONTES. If this is the correct spelling of the motto, should the image be sourced again? Binders (talk) 19:29, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Coordinates[edit]

The coordinates need the following fixes:

  • Write here

Currently gives location in Morpeth Northumberland 217.44.186.187 (talk) 18:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. --David Edgar (talk) 17:38, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Depressing timeline[edit]

Jesus, the timeline reads like a catalogue of disasters! Can someone add some balance with positive events from the last 30 years? I don't know Cumbria well enough to have anything off the top of my head, but some Cumbria experts must know plenty that can be added? pomegranate (talk) 13:25, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Flag[edit]

Where did the 'official' flag come from? As far as I was aware Cumbria had no official flag. I'm a Cumbrian and have never clapped eyes on what is at the top of the page or what is shown in the local government website article which the file links to. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.146.155.194 (talk) 21:25, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

I live here too and "azure a cross argent" seems to be increasingly used as the Cumbrian flag. Surely the banner of the county council arms is the flag of the council, not the county itself. Opera hat (talk) 20:36, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Football Workington A.F.C. should not be stated as Workington Reds. We are "the reds" but we use our Sunday best name here, thank you.

Carlisle Castle![edit]

Can we please add a picture of Carlisle castle to this page, as it is a fantastic land mark! what about dixon's chimney.

David. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doxodeal (talkcontribs) 21:29, 14 October 2013 (UTC)

The Alleged Civitas[edit]

Even if we accept that the inscription lost in the 17th Century did indeed say SEN IN C CARVETIOR and this did indeed mean a civitas of the Carvetii and that R P C CAR does indeed stand for Res Publicae Civitas Carvetiorum, we still have no idea where the boundaries were because which towns and forts lay within Carvetian territory is not recorded anywhere at all. Any statement that the boundaries closely corresponded to those of the Cumbria created in 1974 is blind supposition. Paul S (talk) 19:15, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

It's good that you are at least aware of the multiple examples of the civitas Carvetiorum mentioned in CIL 7, 325/RIB-1, 933 (Old Penrith), RIB-3, 3525/AE 1965, 219a/AE 2005, 921 (Brougham), and RIB-3, 3526/AE 2005, 922 (Langwathby); it doesn't matter that we don't know the precise boundaries - it's clear that it covered a good portion of Cumbria. Cagwinn (talk) 19:46, 5 April 2014 (UTC)
Not at all; firstly the Brougham inscriptions make no mention of the Carvetii, they are memorials and dedications to Mars and Belatucadros and secondly all the inscriptions, Penrith, Brougham, Langwathby and Temple Sowerby are all within 10 miles of each other, as you will see if you look at a map. There are plenty of Roman dedications in the region but none but the two cited have any suggestion of Carvetian associations. Even appending "Carvetiorum" to Magnis on the basis of the name Carvoran (and as a Celtic scholar you'll be aware how unsafe that is) which is over the border in Northumberland really doesn't extend the region that much. Paul S (talk) 18:56, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
You don't know what you are talking about - but hey, don't let that stop you from pretending that you are some sort of expert (I am getting so sick of people like you on Wikipedia!!). Here is the expanded Brougham inscription according to Roman Inscriptions of Britain III and L'Année épigraphique 1965 and 2005:
RIB-3, 3525/AE 1965, 219a/AE 2005, 921 (Brougham/Brocavum)
Imp(eratori) Caes(ari) Ma/r(co) Cas(s)ianio / Latin{ian}io / Postumo /
Aug(usto) Pio / Felici r(es) p(ublica) c(ivitatis) / Car(vetiorum) Cagwinn (talk) 22:06, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

That's one of the examples already cited in Carvetii article giving rise to the idea that there was a civitas, but not one of the Roman Temple dedications at Brougham... anyway, not really important now - my issue was with an earlier contributor saying that this (probable) civitas could be shown to have had boundaries which matched those of the modern country, which isn't the case. Paul S (talk) 14:20, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

  1. ^ [2]
  2. ^ [3]
  3. ^ [4]
  4. ^ [5]
  5. ^ [6]