Talk:Cyberpunk

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Strange Days[edit]

I´m adding Strange Days to the list of films in the cyberpunk genre. ( That is, of course, unless someone disagrees... )

Also, please, edit my contribution: i hate the way i phrased it and can´t find better ways of saying it ( right now )

Gorsh—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.232.246.171 (talk) 2006-12-06T22:51:20

Opening Section[edit]

I'm sorry, but the sentence:

"Unlike New Wave Science Fiction, which featured the importation of stylistic techniques and concerns that already existed in literature and culture at large, cyberpunk originated in the science fiction genre first before gaining mainstream exposure"

is at least both rather unclear in execution and contains redundant clauses, and at worst fallacious in its intended claim. What, precisely, is this contributor attempting to say? The two clauses in the sentence seem to have been linked as an attempt to highlight a contrast by the nature of their semantic symmetry, but it is not actually clear that they are discussing the same issue. By its association with the first clause, the second clause seems to imply that New Wave Science Fiction did not represent an evolution of SF per se, but rather was literature that became SF after "gaining mainstream exposure". Generally, there appears to be a peculiar circularity in the second clause regarding the "origin" of Cyberpunk. Furthermore, it appears to contain a rather redundant claim: I would have thought that if something "originates" somewhere, then by definition it does so in that place "first". Regarding the first clause, is it actually the case that Cyberpunk, "Unlike New Wave Science Fiction" did not "import" "stylistic techniques" or "concerns that already existed in literature and culture at large"? Anybody who has actually read, for example, Gibson's collection "Burning Chrome" would hesitate to agree to the former claim (eg. the non-linear chronology in "Fragments of a Hologram Rose"). Regarding the assertion about Cyberpunk not "Importing" pre-existing cultural "concerns", surely this contributor is not seriously attempting to claim that Cyberpunk came out of an artistic and social vacuum? I would have edited this passage myself, but I am honestly not entirely clear that I understand what, precisely, the original contributor intended. Rather than impose my own views regarding the stylistic differences and origins of New Wave and Cyberpunk respectively, I was hoping that perhaps the original writer could revise this passage. Dusksailor 13:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC) --

"The street finds its own use for things" is quoted, but not attributed. I think it's William Gibson, but I don't know where it's from, so I can't verify that. Can someone else? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.233.98.69 (talk) 2007-04-15T20:50:27

Johnny Mnemonic[edit]

"William Gibson has also been adapted: Johnny Mnemonic (1995) was not successful, but detailed Gibson's world rather faithfully."

Having seen the movie and read the story (Chapter 1 of the "Burning Chrome" compilation,) I have to disagree, but I feel it would be a bit hasty to just delete it without discussion.

Basically, the movie took a page or two from a ~20-page story, then stretched it to feature length and crammed it with filler... The world was de-cyberpunked and sanitized to a more or less contemporary non-fiction state. In the end, the movie bore more than a coincidental resemblance to the original story, but that's hardly a faithful representation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fuchikoma (talkcontribs) 2005-11-29T15:56:12

  • It's been a while since I've seen the movie, and it certainly took some creative license with Gibson's story, but the core of the dystopian world described in the story is still there in the film. I don't really see how one could consider The Free State of New Jersey "contemporary", or the sentient dolphin "non-fiction." Regardless of critical acclaim (or lack thereof), both the story and the movie are classic examples of cyberpunk fiction. Simishag 01:18, 30 November 2005 (UTC)
    • "detailed [...] rather faithfully" is wrong, pure and simple. From this, I'd expect a movie that is a lot closer to the story than that movie actually was. "lo-tek"? No-show. A pretty important no-show if you ask me. In the genre of cyberpunk, that is. (Not "dystopian fiction" or whatever that may be called). Molly? "castrated" if you will. She doesn't even play that big a part, she comes across as rather a "damsell in distress" than the other way around. So, in conclusion, it might contain what you see as Gibson's world (and he wrote the screenplay... but how much of that was left in the released movie?). But the comment is misleading because people could (and will) think that the story and the movie are counterparts, when they're anything but. --jae 17:46, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
  • I won't dispute any of those points, but they belong on a page for JM, in a comparison of the story and the screenplay. It is way too much detail for this article. The movie has obvious cyberpunk influences and references, and it deserves a mention here. I will add a short note about creative license. Simishag 00:26, 31 March 2006 (UTC)
  • Molly was not in the movie Johnny Mnemonic. The female character was called Jane, and had little resemblence to the book character. 67.182.147.140 17:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

editorializing[edit]

there is a great deal of non-NPOV editorializing in this article as it currently stands. I'm making several changes which should neutralize the tone of the article a bit. most specifically, as it currently stands, there is a lot of "Most critics say" or "critics agree that" stuff going on that is specifically editorial. For example, if you want to say that some critics think that the new wave writers of the sixties were more innovative than the cyberpunk writers, that's fine, but you need to sight a source and not explain it as though it were received wisdom or common knowledge, and confine it to the section specifically set aside for criticism.JFQ 19:49, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

  • The term "post-cyberpunk" is listed way to prominently here. This appears to be an article posted by one individual (Persson), and is intended to define all works from 1993 and onward. Yet this is really a distinction without meaning. Even the works cited (Transmetropolitan, for instance) bare absolutely no resemblance to the concept expressed. In short, Post-cyberpunk, to the extent that its expressed at all, should be posed as a theory by one individual, and not a term widely adopted. The number of counter-examples to this term in all medias after 1993 far outwiegh the actual ones that apply. --Sfam 22:14, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Criticism section is a disaster[edit]

From section Criticism: Far too vague wording, just who are these persons? Cite? References?

  • A variety of commentators have taken...
  • ...but are said by some feminist critics not...
  • Critics writing from this viewpoint...
  • Some of these critics have claimed...

There is more, but already this is far too much. Please refer to notable sources or it will be necessary to add a tidy request to the section.

Next we have this gem: Some critics also view the protagonists of cyberpunk as highly Americanized, "cowboys" poised against the collectivist world of Japanese corporations or against European financial dynasties. Leaving aside just who these some may be the rest does not work out either. It completely neglects the cyberpunk works of Japan and South Korea (ref Cyberpunkreview for numerous supporting examples) and suffers therefor a US-centric view. Financial dynasties is perhaps a reference (too vague again) to the dynasty in Straylight but again is insufficient to extrapolate to a trend.

But there is more: It has been argued that this repeated use of the cowboy theme meshes well with the images associated with Ronald Reagan Is this relevant at all? You could make the same nonsensical argument to any actor or politician playing up the ruggedness card.

And again: A recurrent criticism of cyberpunk is that it assumes a dualistic picture of the human body and mind, analogous to that of Descartes, and conveying an antipathy to embodied human life. Once again, this is a concern to some feminist critics. Well, just why is this a concern and why to these (nameless) feminist critics?

One possible reference for the latter (criticism of dualism in the context of feminist/gender theory) is this: Foster, Thomas: "Meat Puppets or Robopaths?: Cyberpunk and the Question of Embodiment." Genders, 18 (1993): pp. 11-31.

The entire section is noting short of a total disaster and is in serious need of rewrite or flat out removal. --85.164.89.133 14:34, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Agree that Criticism section reads like author has an anti-cyberpunk agenda of some sort. Worse yet, as the previous writer indicates, it contains many unsubstantiated claims. Thus I'd also recommend a comprehensive rewrite or deletion. The inclusion of Brin's sour grapes comments strikes me as particularly silly. I also wonder why Gibson is not quoted more extensively, here and elsewhere in the article, Sterling as well.

On a purely egotistical note, I can't resist suggesting that some of my own contributions, several available online, be linked to. See http://www.dthomasmaddox.com. Tom Maddox 18:55, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

  • While I agree with the critiques poised on general terms, they are not adequately put forth in the article as it stands. Those of us with inquisitive mindsets would probably do well to chart out the literary circles in search of concrete, verifiable claims, in form of book reviews, essays &c.
  • As it stands, there is too much that is weaselly or plain nebulous in the section, and it provides no useful knowledge for the knowlessman in search of more information of the topic of cyberpunk critique. It is, essentially, a cul-de-sac full of "some" and "certain critics", with no way out for the erudite seeker of truth. We need names and dates, direct quotes from the instigators of specific critcal viewpoints if at all possible. If these critiques are as prevalent as we are led to believe, surely finding someone, anyone in the literary criticism sphere to function as a reality anchor. --Agamemnon2 07:56, 21 April 2006 (UTC)


There's very little good in that section. I am for sexual equality but it seems like an overzealous feminist punched a few lines in there:
"Some of these critics have claimed that cyberpunk's heroes often establish their masculinity by dominating a technology described with female metaphors — in essence, through metaphorical rape."
--A Sunshade Lust 23:03, 22 April 2006 (UTC)

More than a month has passed with no resolution so I tagged the offending parts of the criticism section as well as the article itself. Googling reveals nothing that seems credible in backing up these alleged criticisms but as a non-expert I'd rather leave that judgement to others. If usable sources cannot be found I suggest the entire criticims section be wiped. --19:50, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Latest rounds is that the entire criticism section was wiped and 15 minutes later restored though without rv tagging and no comments in the talk section. I am in favour of deleting it since quite a long time has passed and noone has come up with citations. Anyone else? --21:41, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Citation needed?[edit]

Concerning the sentence below and the one that follows: Is a citation needed? If someone has read both works and the sentence is true no need for validation of a critic.

>Further, while Neuromancer's narrator may have had an unusual "voice" for science fiction, much older examples can be found: Gibson's narrative voice, for example, resembles that of an updated Raymond Chandler, as in his novel The Big Sleep (1939).[citation needed

Biopunk or Ribofunk?[edit]

In two places the term "biopunk" is used especially in reference to Di Flippo's writing. I have seen "ribofunk" much more commonly used - see for example Sterling's recent collection "Visionary in Residence" and his discription of a story ("The Scab's Progress") that is a collaboration between Di Flippo and him. Note: I would have rather seen "ribofunk" exclusively used, but out of respect I left "biopunk" also in place. 24.183.236.246 01:36, 5 June 2006 (UTC) Joseki

Genetic Engineering in Cyberpunk, Postcyberpunk and Biopunk[edit]

Via discussion on Talk:Biopunk, after further reviewing the three subgenres, the cyberpunk article and the postcyberpunk article seem to have a potential, mild disagreement. Postcyberpunk included the topic of genetic engineering, while the article on cyberpunk does not. Genetic engineering does belong to the computerized technological science-fiction genres, i.e. cyberpunk. As can be seen in the postcyberpunk movie, The Fifth Element, the character Leeloo is regenerated via a futuristic device that is explained as using genetic code to rebuild a person from even the smallest amount of genetic material. Since even modern genetics can't be employed without the use of technological advancements, this fact furthers the evidence that it is directly tied to computers and information technology. Genetic Engineering should be included in cyberpunk. Additionally, the need for biopunk as a science-fiction subgenre should be reconsidered. --Calviin 18:08, 20 December 2006 (UTC)


BioPunk could deal with cyborgs, clones, or other creatures that then go dissent or are then the marginalized people, a shift from an anthropocentric world/narrative to a more bio-centric worldview/narrative. williamsparker, Austin, TX

Do us a Favour[edit]

Could any of yous give me the names of some novel etc i should read...what do you recomend...you can message my talk page cheers Nothing too obtuse or outdated...something to get me in on the scene if you know what i mean....thanks Owwmykneecap 05:23, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Read the article. dposse 21:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Neuromancer
I'm sorry but Neuromancer, althought it is my favourite, and is considered the archetypal cyberpunk novel, is quite obtuse, and pretty much outdated. From the same author, I'd go for the Bridge Trilogy: Virtual Light, Idoru, and Tomorrow's Parties.--SidiLemine 10:19, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

the diamond age, by neal stephenson, is a good cybertpunk book —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.113.6.227 (talk) 03:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Back to the Future II in the list of Dick-based cyberpunk?[edit]

In the section on Film and Television, it says:

"Several of Philip K. Dick's works have been adapted to the silver screen, with cyberpunk elements typically becoming dominant; examples include Back To The Future II (1989), Demolition Man (1993), Timecop (1994), Twelve Monkeys (1995), Minority Report (2002), and Paycheck (2003)"

What Dick work is BTTF II based on?--ragesoss 19:54, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Removed pending citations[edit]

I've removed this section as it doesn't provide citations. The article is a really good read, and I'm not surprised it became an FA, although it would be nice to have more Free-use images. I'm not sure if the one on Lain would be allowed here under fair use. - FrancisTyers · 09:49, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Note, I'm not saying that this section is necessarily wrong, indeed some of the criticism seems well founded, but it could do with less weasel words and some more citations. Also, drop the fair use image. I'm sure a Free use image of a "razorgirl" could be found. - FrancisTyers · 09:51, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Criticisms[edit]

Image:TrinityMatrixCharacter.jpg - Trinity, heroine of the Matrix trilogy, is an example of the "razorgirl" type.]]

A variety of commentators[citation needed] have taken the "canonical" cyberpunk works to task, pointing out dubious aspects of the genre. For example, many of the genre's heroines take after Neuromancer's Molly, becoming "razorgirls", who may have sex appeal for a male science fiction readership but are said by some {{Fact}} feminist critics not to be liberated or well-developed as characters. Critics[citation needed] writing from this viewpoint tend to find presence of such characters disturbing, particularly when compared to female protagonists in unequivocally dystopian science fiction (e.g., Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid's Tale). Some {{Fact}} of these critics have claimed that cyberpunk's heroes often establish their masculinity by dominating a technology described with female metaphors — in essence, through metaphorical rape.

A recurrent criticism[citation needed] of cyberpunk is that it assumes a dualistic picture of the human body and mind, analogous to that of Descartes, and conveying an antipathy to embodied human life. Once again, this is a concern to some {{Fact}} feminist critics. However, other critics[citation needed] have seen cyberpunk as projecting a more sophisticated and modern picture of the mind and its relationship to the body, one that should not be confused with Cartesian dualism and has more to do with cognitive science.

Fashion[edit]

Where can I find out more about cyberpunk as a fasion style, I saw a girl today whering lots of neon, false dreadlock (with neon woven in) chucky shoes, lots of peircig , I would like to find out more about the origins of this as a sub-culture Back ache 18:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Cowboy Bebop[edit]

Is Cowboy Bebop actually a cyberpunk series? To me it fits in a broader Sci-Fi scope: The time is distant (colonizing of the solar system), the theme is clearly not a "man vs. tech", or any other cyberpunk usual themes, the mood is, if not cheery, light, and settings are very often in open space, rather than neon-lit back-alleys. Plus the network plays a very little role. I agree that "post-cyberpunk" is too easy a term, but there is a new trend of space-opera developping, more centered on individuals, local communities, and the difficulties of expansion in the solar system in whitch Cowboy Bebop fits more neatly. Anyone has a name for it? 82.151.86.114 16:47, 22 August 2006 (UTC)Sidi

I would say that Cowboy Bebop is not a cyberpunk series. The genre doesn't really fit in any fashion beyond being science fiction. Cowboy Bebop is usually considered a space western, if anything at all, since the series was designed to break down genre barriers and focus more on characters and attitude. 'Kash 20:33, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, there was that one episode, Brain Scratch, that was definitely cyberpunk. And Ed is a very cyberpunk character. But in general, you're right, you can't really pigeonhole it like that. —Keenan Pepper 00:51, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Ya, I wouldn't want to define an entire series based on the vents of one episode. The majority of it doesn't really seem to fit the bill. 'Kash 21:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Space Western is not bad at all, but I find it hard to coin a genre for a single series. Instead I'd very much like to find a genre in which Planetes would fit too...--SidiLemine 15:51, 24 August 2006 (UTC)Sidi

Planetes is hard scifi. I don't there there is anything in that series we couldn't do today with enough money. Fafnir665 (talk) 03:32, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Crap, I forgot my login... anyway... "Cheery... light"? Have you actually seen Cowboy Bebop? I've watched it through multiple times, and that's pretty much the opposite of how I would describe it. It follows some very dark and depressing themes, and much more noir than western. I don't think it was meant to be a purely "adult" anime, so they don't go out of their way to alienate the young'uns, but I definitely think it was intended for an older, more cynical and "post modern" audience. And I would say a lot more activity takes place in neon-lit back alleys, hole-in-the-wall bars and abandoned buildings than in space. And most of the time in space is spent in damp, dreary equivalents of the same. If the definition of cyberpunk is "high tech and low life", then I think Cowboy Bebop qualifies. 97.66.141.234 (talk) 20:04, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

64.132.236.33's edits[edit]

I don't understand some of the edits you made. Several of them are rather significant. --There wasn't anything wrong with the statement in the lead paragraph --Postnational settings aren't necessarily a defining characteristic of cyberpunk, nor is urban decay. --GitS:SAC isn't that typical of an example of postcyberpunk, even though it may fit into the category. It also isn't particularly prominent in the category, and is also a series adaptation of the more popular movie. --There wasn't much reason to remove the explanation of Neuromancer, as it fits under the literature category. Xombie 10:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Paranoia?[edit]

Forgive my status of being a malcontent, but...

I have a hard time swallowing the line stating that cyberpunk has been featured in "Computer games, board games and role-playing games (such as Paranoia)"... If you've ever played Paranoia, I can't fathom "cyberpunk" having anything to do with it. Heck, the entire White-Wolf game line has more cyberpunk!

Paranoia is a game based upon the concept of "mostly unrestrained silliness" in laymans terms. All which is cyberpunk is rooted in "dark, grittty future". Let me tell you friends, there is nothing dark or gritty about being killed by scrubbots. Paranoia assumes you will die in 6 ridiculous ways every adventure.

At any rate, could I assume that there would be no objections to simply replacing the reference to Paranoia with another game which actually is cyberpunk?

I'm thinking Shadowrun would be an easy and logical choice, although the prevalence of magic doesn't really fit in with a classic definition of the genre, which brings to mind Cyberpunk 2020, which more tightly fits the ideal.

I'll ask here before correcting the error. This was, apparently, a featured article after all, regardless of inaccuracies. CameronB 19:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I found it hard too; but when I thought about it, the (halas too) obvious replacement was Cyberpunk itself, and you can understand why that's not really convenient (a tad too easy if I may say). Shadowrun, as you pointed, is a bit tricky too. Althought it tries hard to stick to the background, it always ends up in some prophetic Fantasy story. Other options include GURPS; Transhuman Space (a bit too far ahead IMO), Bitume MK5 and Berlin XVIII (two french games of little notoriety), and the third edition of the white wolf series. Be bold. --SidiLemine 10:28, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
Very well then, consider the Edits completed. Hmm... I must say I'm suprised that I was able to actually come up with a reason to make an edit on the sight. User:CameronB 65.102.93.45 19:25, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Blade Runner and cyberpunk[edit]

The paragraph "Many influential films such as Blade Runner and the Matrix trilogy can be seen as prominent outgrowths of the genre's styles and themes" is for sure correct about The Matrix, but probably wrong about Blade Runner. The latter was shot in 1981 and released in 1982, so I don't think it could be an outgrowth of the cyberpunk genre, which was yet to be defined at that time (AFAIK). I don't do the edit myself because I'm not completely sure, though. --Danmaz74 23:06, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

in a similar vein, Akira was written in 1981, so could not have been influenced by the cyberpunk genre. Obviously Bladerunner and Akira went on to shape and influence what would become Cyberpunk, but they could not have been influenced by it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Outerstyx (talkcontribs) 12:58, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

The Fashion section[edit]

In my opinion the section covering cyberpunk fashion doesn't match the quality of the article in general. Unfortunately I have very limited knowledge on the subject, so I can't improve it much myself. - x-Flare-x 13:57, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Questions on the Anime and Manga section[edit]

Cyberpunk has influenced many anime and manga including Appleseed, where the focus is on the urban cyberpunk conflict in a post World War III environment. Akira would be an representation of Armageddon. Hayao Miyazaki’s version of Metropolis also concentrates on a “Puppet Master” for the cyborgs, just like the hunt for one in Ghost in the Shell.

1. In the sentence about Akira, does "Akira" allude to the manga/anime or the character?

2. In the last sentence; which is the version of Metropolis that's mentioned? My guess is Metropolis (2001 film), but as far as I can see on its article it has nothing to do with Hayao Miyazaki.

These things would be good to have clarified so the links can be pointed right. - x-Flare-x 15:07, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

I have a question,

Also of note is 2004's Steamboy directed by Katsuhiro Otomo. Here Otomo focuses on a nuclear holocaust and the arms race and how a cyborg is less human and more machine

Has the person who wrote this part even SEEN Steamboy? And why is a reference to steampunk even included in this section? -Xexyzl —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.31.193.20 (talk) 04:57, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

WP:SIZE/FARC[edit]

This article is too long. The music section is much, much too long relative to its importance in the article as a whole. This needs a serious trimming. Also, the lead is much too long, and there are a lot of puffy, subjective POV adjectives scattered through the article. Have to consider nomination for featured article removal candidate. Avt tor 08:26, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

I think the ".hack//" (dot hack) series franchise needs a mention.[edit]

My knowledge of cyberpunk is very limited, but I do know that .hack// is a very special kind of cyberpunk. To me anyways. Just search it up on ...wikipedia. It's basicly set in the future, where the internet crashed, a new OS started, and a new MMORPG is played, which actually has something to do with creating artificial intelligence.There are also themes of Second Order Simulcras (Don't know if I used that right). Anyways, please excuse the run-on sentance, I'm not a professional writer, which is why I'm bringing it up. I'm just saying .hack// needs a mention in the Anime section. Although, it is a huge franchise. There's the 4 videogames which started it, and the anime...and everything.

Hope someone interested adds to this page...thank you in advance?

142.162.137.27 22:56, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree, someone should definitely add mention the //.hack , especially since Serial Experiments Lain, which is also a cyberpunk anime, has already been noted in the article. Xx Scala Caeli xX (talk) 03:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Over generalization[edit]

the line from the intro "Today cyberpunk themes are evident in almost all contemporary works of science fiction." Is IMO a large over-generalization. While much recent SF is influencd by cyberpunk to soem degree, I would have no problem at all in citing lots of recent works that are not apparently so influenced. SF is by now a wide river, with many sub-currents. No one school can be considered to have influenced all of it, or anything like all of it. Perhaps just chanign "almost all" to "many" would fix this. DES (talk) 20:36, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

As a point which could help remove some of the generalizations is one defining factor I've always used to define Cyberpunk -- one of the "punk" attributes is violation. Much of the early works feature rape of the body, mind, culture, corporation... holes in the head for computer interfaces, implantation of remote-control biologics to ensure behavior and so on. The Post-Cyberpunk items are a lot less likely to feature such punk themes.Joelfinkle 01:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

self ref?[edit]

Is writing like "The rest of this entry will focus on works that define cyberpunk as its own genre, which is distinctive within the larger category of science fiction." realy a good idea? Besides, as the articel is edited, additional content may make it inaccurate. DES (talk) 20:38, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Unclear reference[edit]

The article now says: "But unfortunately for cyberpunk's arguable originator, the films Johnny Mnemonic (1995) and New Rose Hotel (1998) were both flops, commercially and critically. Gibson fans derided the screenplay as deviating substantially from his original work, even though Gibson wrote the final screenplay himself." Which screen play was so derided, or was it both? an should ther be a cite to someone expressign such derision? DES (talk) 20:47, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Metropolis-anime-dvd.jpg[edit]

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music?[edit]

"With the new millennium came a new movement of industrial bands making "laptop" music. Homeless traveling squatter punks armed themselves with digital equipment and fused technology into their street sounds- El-wire and the Vagabond Choir. The hacker subculture, documented in places like the Jargon File, regards this movement with mixed feelings, since self-proclaimed cyberpunks are often "trendoids" with affection for black leather and chrome who speak enthusiastically about technology instead of learning about it or becoming involved with it. ("Attitude is no substitute for competence," quips the File.) However, these self-proclaimed cyberpunks are at least "excited about the right things" and typically respect the people who actually work with it—those with "the hacker nature"."

This was written horribly, and sounds like the writer actually thinks we live in a cyberpunk world. "Homeless traveling squatter punks"? Please..

Berlin Sony Center[edit]

I'm not clear what the picture at the top of the page is supposed to be doing there. Does the Sony Center have significance to cyberpunks or cyberpunk literature? The comment below the picture says, "Berlin's Sony Center reflects the global reach of a Japanese corporation." Yes, it does. But is the Sony Center itself a cyberpunk creation and/or mentioned in cyberpunk literature? Could I put a picture of a galaxy in the science fiction article and say, "Science Fiction is often set in space" beneath it? I'm just trying to figure out what its purpose is. glocks out 20:38, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

This picture seems pretty pointless to me, unless someone can offer a clear explanation of why it is being used then it should be removed. As far as I can see, it has a vague cyberpunk look, but no source to suggest that it was built specifically to look cyberpunk. I'm sure that there are many other, more appropriate pictures that could be used. magnius (talk) 13:47, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

"Decoct novel"?[edit]

The article says:

After his popular decoct novel, Count Zero (1986)

Even after a trip to the dictionary, I have no idea what is meant here by "decoct". It is so bizarre that I suspect vandalism. If nobody explains what it means here, I'm going to suppose that it is an error (or at best a neologism) and remove it. If someone does explain it, perhaps we can replace it with a word that is less puzzling. -- Dominus 20:28, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

High-importance[edit]

Just for the sake of clarity, could it be stated why this article is classified as 'High-importance' Thanks - GW —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.18.192.163 (talk) 20:31, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

Actually i just re-rated as Top importance for the SF project. It is impossible to understand modern science fiction without knowledge of cyberpunk, and all serious discusions of SF touch on it at some point.Yobmod (talk) 13:01, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

Arpanet[edit]

Should we add the band arpanet to the music section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mnml (talkcontribs) 20:51, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Hackers/Antitrust[edit]

I'm surprised these movies have not been ammended to the film list, due to their mentionable albeit "B" movie popularity.

Hackers [1] has a very blatant cyberpunk theme that transcends the story alone.

"I am a hacker and this is my manifesto..."

While not generally focused on sub cultures, Antitrust [2] does portray a viable example of a cyberpunk mentality within the software development realm. 05:57, 4 December 2007 (UTC)


I haven't seen the movie and have no opinion about it, but is there a good reason for 64.251.146.150 to remove Hackers from the list of influential films? --Jim Henry (talk) 10:55, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

Digital Hardcore as Cyberpunk music?[edit]

In my opinion, Digital Hardcore, albeit a smaller genre, embodies much of the Cyberpunk culture. In fact, by its very definition, it is a combination of hardcore techno and punk rock, which would be etymologically suggestive of such a connection. Atari Teenage Riot, for example, made a clear, although nihilistic, reference to cyberpunk culture in the track "Cyberpunks Are Dead!". Should this be worked into the article? michaelb Talk to this user 19:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Where is Scanners?[edit]

The movie Scanners (1980) by David Cronenberg seems to fit right in with Cyberpunk (and predates most of the movies that are listed). Should it be included? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.150.253.55 (talk) 02:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Concerning Issac Asimov and Frank Herbert[edit]

I'm sorry to say but the Foundation/Dune books are not Cyberpunk. Sure they have some similaritys but I mean seriously, Starwars is more cyber punk than those two series. p.s. I have read both of the series and I know from personal experence that they are again Not Cyberpunk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.210.116.156 (talk) 14:33, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

"although the style was popularized well before its publication by editor Gardner Dozois"[edit]

Is this supposed to mean Dozois published it, or that he popularized it? Unclear. Thmazing (talk) 22:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)Thmazing

Lone Heroes[edit]

This article reads...

"Protagonists in cyberpunk writing usually include computer hackers, who are often patterned on the idea of the lone hero fighting injustice: Robin Hood, Zorro, etc."

Robin Hood was not a lone hero. He had a band of merry men who are an integral part of any Robin Hood story. Not even the Lone Ranger was really alone, he had Tonto. In literature it is hard to find a truly lone hero. It seems every hero needs his interlocutor or chronicler. (This may be a matter of necessity in plays, TV, films - the hero needs to disclose his thoughts, plans to someone for the sake of audience understanding.)

To cut to the chase, is Cyberpunk particularly distinguished by having truly lone heroes?

Robin Hood was a fighter against injustice: does this description truly fit the Cyberpunk hero. Is the Cyberpunk protagonist truly heroic?

TJ (talk) 15:10, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Cyberdelic[edit]

I have expanded and improved the Cyberdelic article in light of its exploration of Cyberpunk as a counterculture rather than a science fiction genre. --Loremaster (talk) 15:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Literature[edit]

In this section under Overview a little history seems missing, some of it is there but I know that both William Gibson and Bruce Sterling (probably the other CP writers too)did not like the term Cyberpunk , have heard them voice this on panels at SF conventions, at least early on, probably have it documented somewhere. I know both have complained that CP just ought to be called plain science fiction for historical reasons, saying that H.L. Gold's Galaxy Magazine was publishing the same kind of fiction as early as 1950. The artlcle does note Alfred Bester's great baroque SF space opera THE STARS MY DESTINATION is solid CP and that was written in 1956 , maybe more mention of the works of Phil Dick , Cordwainer Smith , Fred Pohl and C.M. Kornbluth from the 1950's should be given more space and expanded upon.--aajacksoniv (talk) 12:50, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

And doing a cyberpunk article without mention of The Shockwave Rider is a real tour de force. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 110.172.190.2 (talk) 08:01, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

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Clean up[edit]

Could someone clean up both the music section and the recently adjusted film section. Although they need abit of a clean up, and maybe a reference or two, could someone manage to do it without just deleting it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Feargarden (talkcontribs) 15:39, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Note, most of the deleted examples were actually moved to List of cyberpunk works and cited there. Once that list is comprehensive enough, it should be easier to write a good music section for example, with all the cources used there.Yobmod (talk) 15:45, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Dick/Gibson on film[edit]

"The number of films in the genre or at least using a few genre elements has grown steadily since Blade Runner. Several of Philip K. Dick's works have been adapted to the silver screen. The films Johnny Mnemonic (1995) and New Rose Hotel (1998) flopped, commercially and critically."

Kind of makes it seem like Johnny Mnemonic and New Rose Hotel had something to do with Philip K. Dick.

Markku N. 130.234.178.109 (talk) 09:05, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Good point, I've added a little to make it clear who wrote the original stories on which those two are based. magnius (talk) 09:52, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Syndicate Game[edit]

Could someone add a good mention for the 90's game "Syndicate" and "Syndicate Wars"? These games are a staple mark of SF cyberpunk culture, riddled with cybernetic augments, megacorporations, crime and corruption, tech violence, and near-future low-life cities. It's the epitome of this SF genre for a computer game and I'm astonished that it hasn't been mentioned. Someone should definitely add this! More info here: "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syndicate_(video_game)" 71.226.61.138 (talk) 09:36, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

These games are already listed in List of cyberpunk works, so there is no need to clog up this article with any mention. magnius (talk) 10:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

List of Seminal Works?[edit]

I came to the wikipedia page hoping that there would be a list at the end of some of the best cyberpunk works, but no dice. Is there a chance we could just put one at the end, so that if people upon reading the article could see which books would be good to get started with?

NealJMD (talk) 14:55, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

There is a List of cyberpunk works, but generally the most notable works are listed in each section of the cyberpunk page itself. magnius (talk) 15:05, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Deus Ex game[edit]

Could Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Invisible War also be added to games of cyberpunk genere? If yes, then please somebody so it. I am not lazy, I am just not 100% sure about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.77.184.27 (talk) 13:34, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

They're already listed in List of cyberpunk works, so there is no real need to over clutter this article. magnius (talk) 13:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

"Real life" --> "Cultural impact" ?[edit]

I'd like to toss out an idea I've had for a while, but haven't tried to move on because I'm busy elsewhere on Wikipedia. The "Real life" section can be expanded if it covered the cultural impact the cyberpunk genre has had. The references to urban areas already suggests an architectural impact, and information from the Cyberdelic and Cybergoth pages can be used to invoke the counter-cultural impact cyberpunk has had. There is also some overlap with the "Music" section (which is itself very bare) when musicians are inspired by cyberpunk fiction in their work. A sub-section on the aesthetic impact can be used to expand how artists in illustration, music, and film have been inspired. We know Billy Idol is a confirmed example of this from the Cyberpunk album page, and I imagine their are many others.

  • Cultural Impact
    • Architecture and urban planning
    • Society and counterculture
    • Arts and aesthetics

Again, I'm very busy elsewhere, and this isn't a subject I have a great deal of knowledge on, but I'm sure a few fans of the genre who read this may have other ideas for how to move forward.--Cast (talk) 22:11, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

This is somewhat covered by the List of cyberpunk works. That page could certainly be improved a little, as long as citations are always present. magnius (talk) 22:15, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
That list is nothing more than what the title implies—a list of works classified as cyberpunk. The list cannot function as an exposition on the impact cyberpunk has had on society in the past 30 years. (My goodness, has it been that long?) However, such a section would complement the list, in that research into the genre's legacy may reveal new works to include on that list.--Cast (talk) 22:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
My only reservation would be that "cultural" might be too narrow of a scope if architecture and so on are included. There's also the significant influence c*punk has had on actual technology to take into account – see William_Gibson#Visionary_influence_and_prescience for example. So I'm not sure about the heading change. Other than this minor quibble, I think the proposal is excellent, and don't think a list will be able to do the work we would want this prose section to do.  Skomorokh  22:23, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Even as I completed this write up, I realized I was neglecting the technological impact. Perhaps a broader term to use would be "Legacy"? Another term may be "Social impact", "social" being broad enough to cover any aspect of society, cultural, literary (the section on subgenres may be moved here), aesthetical, musical, or technological.--Cast (talk) 22:44, 4 September 2009 (UTC)
Both seem very apt :)  Skomorokh  22:47, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

2010 update[edit]

I had a little free time this morning and I was tired of waiting to see if anyone would follow up on these ideas. I've created the section myself. Now I'm sure someone will pass by it and make changes. Hope these help eventually drive the article to FA status. Happy editing. --Cast (talk) 16:29, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The Matrix is a bad example to use prominent cyberpunk[edit]

I think this article is confusing, because it lists the Matrix as prominent example of cyberpunk. While it seems to be clear that most sources do indeed classify the Matrix as cyberpunk, that classification is far from clear and obvious. The Matrix fails to introduce a "new social order". The machines manipulation of reality is subtle, and does not effect the social day to day life of the average person. Also the Matrix is not "near future". One could also debate the "low life" aspect. Clearly before Nero was recruited he was "low life", but is true of many soldiers. Really, if you look at the available genre classifications the Matrix is actually a better match for Military Science Fiction. However, I am not going to debate the classification of the Matrix as cyberpunk as that is clearly what the experts classify it as. I do however feel it is not the best example to use, as it leaves people confused as to what exactly is cyberpunk.Bill C. Riemers, PhD. (talk) 15:30, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

This article surely wouldn't be confusing just by listing only one single movie that doesn't properly fall into the cyberpunk genre. That is, if it were so. It isn't. There are quite a few examples here one might easily consider debatable, just the more so, of course, as everyone maintains a slightly dissimilar, because ultimately individual notion of 'what actually makes something cyberpunk'. And that's why it's completely pointless to haggle over single examples out of any such lists -- they are only intended to provide rough examples! This is no science! No clear-cut issue! No reliable set of criteria known to be met! The Matrix seems appropriate for several reasons, but at least and certainly not less appropriate than most of the other examples! For one, it's fairly popular. In fact more popular, than most of the other films listed. And without doubt it draws heavily on at least one movie widely considered a springboard of the genre, namely Blade Runner. Apart from that I personally couldn't find anything specifically military concerning The Matrix..?! Something in the vein of Starship Troopers?! Not really. The Matrix first and foremost deals with rather philosophical matters.. a facet also and in general more typical of Cyberpunk, than of chiefly Military Science Fiction. All in all, if The Matrix isn't Cyberpunk, Neuromancer couldn't be either. But then, what is? Zero Thrust (talk) 19:01, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

Bethke and cyberpunk[edit]

I have not been previously engaged in any debates about Bethke, nor posted any edits or articles on him, but I have to wonder about the Bethke claim to Cyberpunk (a portmanteau of Cyberspace and Punk - but how can you have Cyberpunk without Gibson's Cyberspace first? We'll get to that.). First off, his article on inventing the term Cyberpunk, is totally self-referential. Why is the ONLY link to his purported claim directed to HIS OWN WEB PAGE???? Further, when you go to his home web page where he claims to explain how he managed to invent the term (Etymology of Cyberpunk) he offers lots of colorful stories, memories of Radio Shack, and prose...yet not one single explanation proper of his literary invention (only citing a mysterious short story written 14 prior to its release. Yes, really). William Gibson invented the term CyberSPACE in 1979. Martin Caidin invented the term CyBORG in 1971. Both of which had to come prior (time-line wise) to Bethke's invention. Yet nowhere does Bethke give a solid point of reference for combining the PUNK with the CYBER for his claimed portmanteau. Ergo, this reeks of simply hijacking Gibson's words, ethos, and literary inventions. Thus - if Bethke REALLY DID invent the term? Why doesn't he at least have one single source outside his own homepage to verify this? (not so much as an external interview exists). Likewise, his claim to have written it in a "story that was not published"...Uh, hello? He says he wrote the story back in 1980 but it was unpublished, and due to publisher rights issues, it sat on some shelf for over ten years. Really? Wow. Maybe my dad invented the entire World Wide Web, the first Browser, and Wikipedia all back in 1942, but the paper he wrote (complete with diagrams!) actually sat inside a secret room in the basement of the Pentagon until now. But hey - since he said it? Why do we need pesky things like PROOF or outside sources? (That are not self-referential). I'm not trying to destroy Bethke or his credibility (he can do that himself). I don't even know the man. But I think Wikipedia deserves much more or else this term (and its origins) can get lost to history with some singular person claiming credit. I think it should be credited to multiple people (including Gibson whom without his term Cyberspace - no punk would have a plane which to inhabit!). Come on folks - this Bethke claim is exactly the reason we've all fought so hard to get Wikipedia accepted as a legit reference. When critics trash us for "allowing anyone to post anything as gospel"...this is one example they can cite. Is it too mcuh to require some legit proof or reference? If not - I'm going over to the Nickelback and Kanye West pages and claim that all of their songs and albums were written and recorded by me back in 1988 - except the CDs have sat on the shelf of a secret label and I'm just now able to release it. And if you query as to where I divined inspiration for both GOLD DIGGER and SOMETHING IN YOUR MOUTH? I'll tell you about my memories of working at Radio Shack or FYE, but not any proof of deriving the actual words. See how bad that sucks? I have not shaved off Bethke's claim, nor made any corrections myself. I'll let some of you who are better at Wiki-formatting than I handle this task. But it NEEDS to be done to save some Wiki credibility. Thank you for all your hard work. Dr. MilSpook, PhD. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.68.187.188 (talk) 16:09, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

An anonymous user has mounted a campaign, both here and in the article on Bruce Bethke, to remove any mention of Bethke's short story and its role in coining the term "cyberpunk." We need to have a discussion of all involved editors on this subject. For now, the referenced statements should remain, pending a consensus. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 04:01, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Not true. I only removed it from the lead paragraph, and left the discussion of it in the section below. For consistency, I updated the Bethke page to indicate that the claim was unsubstantiated. I believe that a claim that bold needs a source to back it up and shouldn't be accepted as fact without one. I also find it difficult to believe that an obscure short story, published in 1983, could possibly be the source of the name of the genre that Neuromancer launched in 1984. Moreover, I've never seen that claim made anywhere outside of Wikipedia and Bethke's own home page.
It should be removed unless and until you can produce any reference that backs it up. Bethke's personal page is not a legit reference for this claim for obvious reasons.76.28.209.17 (talk) 04:26, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
What you find "hard to believe" is utterly beside the point. The claim was referenced, and now has two references. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 13:11, 19 April 2010 (UTC)

Low-life?[edit]

It does not seem to me that the phrase "high tech and low life" should contain a link to the low-life article. That article is about people who are "considered morally unacceptable by their community in general" (the article mentions prostitutes, drug addicts etc.), but I believe the "low life" in this context means "low living standard" (in contrast to high-tech, ie. advanced technology which implies "advanced society" and therefore a high living standard). This contrast I believe to be the essence of cyberpunk, and not the presence of low-lives such as hookers and drug dealers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.136.252.138 (talk) 15:32, 27 October 2010 (UTC)