Talk:Cyrillic alphabet

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Archives
/Archive 1

Contents

[edit] Cyril and Methodius

Please stop this madness, Cyril and Methodius were Greek as their names state. The whole world seems to know, except you. http://www.behindthename.com/name/cyril

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius

Falsifying history is extremely dangerous and leads to fanatism and unexpected counter reactions.


Best Regards Denpap Denpap (talk) 22:15, 25 February 2009 (UTC)



Then why don't greek people use the cyrillic alphabet now? ANSWER THE QUESTION!!! Fireleaf (talk) 19:02, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and why do you keep deleting that the Macedonian language also uses Cyrillic alphabet? I think you are the one that is falsifying the history. Fireleaf (talk) 19:31, 28 February 2009 (UTC)


Dear Fireleaf,

First of all, I was not the one who deleted the word of the so called "Macedonian" language. Thanks to Wikipedia's features, you can see who did it. Before accusing someone, you have to be 100% sure that your accusations are correct.

Furthermore, whether a so called "Macedonian" language is different from Bulgarian, is a matter of discussion and everyone has his opinion. As far as I know, you inhabitants of FYROM scream and shout, claiming that your language is directly originating from Ancient Macedonian and has nothing to do with Bulgarian language or any other Slavic language. Better decide yourselves.

As for whether Cyril (Konstantinos) and Methodios were Greeks or not, you can find the answer here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius

Their mission was to introduce Christianity to Slavic people, but neither to impose the Greek culture upon them, nor to assimilate them. This is why they invented this new alphabet, combining the Glagolitic, the Slavonic and the Greek.

You are free to believe whatever you want, but history is based on certified sources and proofs only.

Best Regards Denpap (talk) 15:41, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually it is not known whether they were of Greek or Slavic origin (or mixed?). All we know is that they were Byzantine subjects. So let us call them "Byzantines" and put an end to this debate.195.114.112.226 (talk) 09:10, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, I guess it's ok to stay that way for now. Fireleaf (talk) 17:40, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


Added sources such as Encyclopedia Britannica mentioning the two Saints Cyril and Methodius as Greeks If you have other reliable, english speaking sources proving the opposite, please state the sources and subsequntly modify the text Denpap (talk) 21:43, 8 March 2009 (UTC)


[edit] ST. CYRIL & METODII WERE NOT GREEKS!

WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE? IF THEY WERE, GREEKS WOULD BE USING THE CYRILIC ALPHABET RIGHT NOW! THIS IS INSANE! The alphabet was created a long, long, long time before the Treaty of Bucharest (1913), and at that time today's Macedonia (Greece Region) used to be part of today's Republic of Macedonia. That's how Cyril & Metodii were born there, in today's Thessaloniki (Solun). This whole article should be REWRITTEN! LEARN THE HISTORY, THEN WRITE ARTICLES ABOUT IT! Fireleaf (talk) 12:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.134.55.190 (talk) 11:04, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
What a patriotic macedonian douchebag. They were just half-south slavs/half greeks from Solun. The name 'Macedonia' is stolen from greeks. It's well known all over the world -- nobody in the world doesn't think Alexander Macedonian was Slav as well. You just wanna prove that your country isn't just yet another poor slav hole. I understand it. But please don't bring politics here.195.113.149.177 (talk) 01:28, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Tuvan?

I seen in the article on Tuvan language that it uses another modified Cyrillic alphabet. Any reason not to include it in the section on Turkic languages? Jer ome 00:12, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

That's because it's the regional language --125.25.9.195 (talk) 19:27, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suggested edits January 2007

I'd like to suggest the following edits to improve the quality of this page. I will add to this list as I think of more issues.

  • Move all of the alphabet charts to their respective languages, except for the Russian. This alone will make the length of the article more manageable.
  • Use Russian as the basic alphabet for the discussion and illustrations. I realize this is a political hot potato, but here is my reasoning. Russian has the most speakers of any language that uses Cyrillic letters. The basis of the orthographies of all the non-Slavic languages is Russian, not Ukrainian, Bulgarian, Belarusian, Rusyn, Macedonian, or Serbian. And it is modern Russian, not the pre-1917 version. Of course, there remains political resentment over treatment of minorities by the communists prior to 1991, and some language communities have chosen to abandon Cyrillic alphabets in favor of Latin alphabets. The fact of the matter is, however, that the spread of the Cyrillic alphabet was a Russian legacy. This is a similar issue to the variants of the Latin alphabet as used to represent "dialects" throughout Europe. German-style spelling is used for Germanic dialects, Italian-style spelling is used for the languages of the Italian peninsula, and so on. However much Sicilians or Napulitans or Venezsianos may resent the influence of standard Italian, they use its spelling (modified, of course), not the spelling of English or Portuguese or French or Lithuanian.
  • Add overall chart showing the add-on letters used in non-Russian orthographies, together with their IPA equivalents and links to the languages which use them.
  • In Relationship to other writing systems, add short discussion on the relationship between Cyrillic and Arabic alphabets (such as Belarusian Arabic alphabet.
  • Straighten out (tighten) the discussion about the Preslav and Ohrid schools.
  • Add footnotes for factual assertions, particularly in the History section.
  • Add a nice photo of high-quality modern calligraphy in Cyrillic letters (not Old Church Slavonic, as beautiful as that is)
  • Add actual Russian terms where they are used, not just transliterations in italic letters. Example: pryamoy shrift (thought-provoking example: why the German word 'Schrift' here?)
  • Remove the reference to "If your browser does not support ..." and replace with link to page of instructions on how to MAKE your browser support it.
  • In the Computer encoding section, clarify the discussion of using accents with Unicode.
  • Make Other character encoding systems its own section to aid people to find it from the automatically generated index at the top.
  • In the Keyboard layouts section, change the reference from Volapuk to translit. See my comments on the volapuk page. (And vote there too, please)
  • Add better selection of Categories
Shrift = script, just a generic European root or loanword, and hence hardly thought-provoking.
Would also suggest scrapping the ridiculous example about Standard vs. Serb/Mac. letters - those labelled here as Serb/Mac. are in fact less common but still frequently encountered variations in Russian, both in print fonts and in handwriting, and may (and generally do!) occur interchangbly, in their complete set, or for certain letters but not others in literate and accepted Russian handwriting (the example of Russian was used since a) it is my native language, about which I know this for certain, b) it is the most prevalent language to use Cyrillic). Considering that different slavic languages DO use different sets of Cyrillic letters (with Russian and Ukrainian dropping different letters, for example), this example is misleading and in fact a perfect example of how remote booklearning from distant lands can lead one to folly, not of the (quite unrelated) variation that does actually exist in different languages' Cyrillic alphabets. 128.195.186.57 (talk) 12:50, 12 May 2008 (UTC)Adieu


--Cbdorsett 07:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead. -iopq 00:37, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
Good suggestions, but I think the adoption of the Russian alphabet as a basis requires a bit of discussion. The Bulgarian alphabet (IMO) is the closest to a "basic" version of the alphabet, while Russian contains a few oddball letters of its own, like ё, ы, э. The spread of Cyrillic throughout the Slavic-speaking countries is not a Russian phenomenon, although its export to other language families is. Also, its orthographic and typographic reform along the lines of the Latin alphabet seems to have been at least inspired in other places by Peter's initiative.
The Russian alphabet was very influential, but I'm not convinced that it is the basis for a broad understanding of all versions of the Cyrillic alphabet. I'd rather see some scheme rooted in the history of the alphabet's development. —Michael Z. 2007-06-04 05:20 Z
I agree that section 3 is too long. I think it could stand to be its own article like Alphabets derived from the Latin. Franzeska 15:23, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, you are completely right but I do not thing it is political ( unless Russian government donate this site). Just 'easy made' job. It is more easy to do then looking for authentic Cyrillic reproduction. I hope your understand my English.

I make my suggestion in discussion to 'Glagolitsa' article. By my opinion Cyrillic same as 'Glagolitsa'(forgive my Russian phonetic) come from Coptic (and surrounded) alphabet. Unless I can read Coptic texts with out learning alphabet ( need learn language, however), it is clear for me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.1.119.248 (talk) 08:58, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


" Bulgarian brothers Saint Cyril and Saint Methodius, monks from Thessaloniki, are usually credited with the alphabet's development." - usually ?!?!?! what's that "usually" - just on the weekends and some time on the wensdays ???? And the rest of the time 50 cents and Snoop dog are accredited maybe. Whoever wrote it have some nerves. You know the stupid commies tryed to say that the russians invented the Cyrilic alphabet during the 80s - that was also messed up. 74.62.160.146 (talk) 00:22, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
No, they invented Glagolitsa, which then either naturally evolved or was consciously modified to become modern Cyrillic around a thousand years ago. No 'commies' associated with that event, I assure you.

[edit] Suggested renaming

I think that the more correct name of the article could be "Cyrillic script" or "Cyrillic writing system" instead of "alphabet". Or "Cyrillic alphabets" (plural), because each modern Cyrillic-based national language uses its own alphabet with huge distinctions from each other (even the set of basic letters varies). The term "Cyrillic alphabet" refers (in full sence) just to the Old Slavonic Language (10-12 c.). -- Kcmamu 03:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

My impression is that the terms "script" and "writing system" for Cyrillic seem to be more restricted to the computing context, and not as often used in linguistics. However, I'm no expert. —Michael Z. 2007-06-04 05:31 Z
As I understand it, "alphabet" has two meanings. One is the particular alphabet used in one country or for one language (as Kcmamu is using the term above), but it can also mean a script/writing system in general. So we can say things like "English is written in the Latin alphabet", even though the exact set of letters we use and how we use them is different from the alphabet as used for the Latin language. --Ptcamn 05:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dating Latin C transition

In Classical Latin (from the days of Caesar and Christ), the letter C was hard, and "Caesar" was pronounced "Kaiser". By today, however, "C" is soft, and "Caesar" is pronounced "Seezer". When did this transition occur? By virtue of the letter-form "C" being used in the Cyrillic alphabet for the sound "S", it is clear that this transition occured before the 9th Century CE when Cyrill invented these letters. Further, perhaps the transition was only just completed, because there seems to be a tradition, quoted by user "Derek Ross" below, of calling the Cyrillic letters the Kirillitsa.66.235.30.222 23:23, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

No tradition, I assure you. I would know, since my own grandfather is named Kirill, in Russian, which uses Cyrillic, for that particular saint. On the contrary, this seems to indicate that the K>S transition for C occured much later, and that S=C was chosen for some other unknown reason, since St. Cyrill certainly thought of himself as a Kirill. Perhaps, much like R=P in Cyrillic, it was just borrowing on a familiar letter design that seemed basic, convenient, and unoccupied. 128.195.186.57 (talk) 12:58, 12 May 2008 (UTC)Adieu

[edit] Broken table fonts

If your browser does not support Cyrillic text, see this graphical version.
а б в г д е ё ж з и й к л м н о п р с т у ф х ц ч ш щ ъ ы ь э ю я ґ є і ї ў
а б в г д е ё ж з и й к л м н о п р с т у ф х ц ч ш щ ъ ы ь э ю я ґ є і ї ў

On your system ("Win XP") this table appears with Consolas, where the italic forms where cursive but simply non-slanted versions of the regular, even though you have several of the named fonts installed, called Consolas. --222.233.98.148 (talk) 16:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

On my system ("Firefox/2.0.0.3 (Ubuntu-feisty)") this table appears in a sans-serif font, where the italic forms are not cursive but simply slanted versions of the regular, even though I have several of the named fonts installed. --196.210.100.125 21:38, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Does the following work, with just a simple "font-family:serif" declaration? (Both versions work fine in my Mac Firefox 2.0.0.5) —Michael Z. 2007-08-06 23:23 Z
You changed "font-family" to Verdana. 222.233.98.148 (talk) 14:57, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
а б в г д е ё ж з и й к л м н о п р с т у ф х ц ч ш щ ъ ы ь э ю я ґ є і ї ў
а б в г д е ё ж з и й к л м н о п р с т у ф х ц ч ш щ ъ ы ь э ю я ґ є і ї ў

If you changed the font family to Verdana, the letters вгдийт will be slanted but other fonts will be like this: вгдийт —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.233.98.148 (talk) 15:58, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

So, why are и and й marked as "entirely different" from и and й? Even with the Verdana font, they're both still down - up diagonal - down; they're a lot more similar than, say, the two forms of "a". --jpgordon∇∆∇∆ 01:33, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Bulgarian Macedonia

If I recall correctly, St Clement was active in the Bulgarian Empire, and come from the region of Macedonia. Some editors insist on labelling him as Macedonian, although I don't believe his ethnicity can be known.

The phrase "Bulgarian Macedonia" was a compromise, and not inaccurate. See the details in the archive: Talk:Cyrillic_alphabet/Archive_1#Bulgarian_or_Macedonian. —Michael Z. 2007-10-26 02:07 Z

[edit] A lot of non-Slavic characters

Hi, I'm doing a lot of work with minor Wikipedias, some of which are in languages that use the Cycrillic alphabet. Usually these contain a lot of unusual characters that my browser renders as question marks. I found lots of links providing free Cyrillic fonts, but these only provide the Slavic characters I already have. Shouldn't it be a good idea to add an external link to some free Cyrillic fonts that do contain the non-Slavic and archaic letters I and presumably many others are looking for? Steinbach (fka Caesarion) 11:19, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Sounds?

Can anyone include a table of the sounds of these letters? Most of the alphabet entries (Greek, Phonecian, Hebrew, Arabic) will tell you what the letters sound like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.227.245.186 (talk) 19:53, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Only alphabets that are used by a small number of languages can afford to list letter sounds. The sound represented by a letter normally depends on the particular language, if not on the dialect. More specific information can be found in the specific language articles (see Languages using Cyrillic), and at Cyrillic alphabet variants. FilipeS (talk) 20:10, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
I suggest to make this information available in the List of Cyrillic letters. Instead of the currently redudant letter, at the intersection of a row and a column there could be IPA pronunciation of the letter in the language linked to article about the sound. Nikola (talk) 10:09, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
"Pronunciation in Russian" and "Major Variations" entries in a table? 78.145.80.150 (talk) 17:52, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
This entry has proved useless to me, because it has no list of phonetic equivalents to prevalent global languages, eg. English. User burisch)
I suggest to go to specific modern languages' alphabets, as the letter/sound correspondence may vary, e.g. Russian alphabet, Ukrainian alphabet, Bulgarian alphabet, etc. Anatoli (talk) 08:34, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Distribution of the Cyrillic alphabet: Serbia and Moldova

Should Serbia and Moldova be in light green or not? There is an ongoing discussion about Serbia on the page commons:Image talk:Cyrillic Europe.PNG. Feel free to add your comments, even if you do not understand German. I'm pretty sure everyone speaks English. --Komischn (talk) 12:37, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

[edit] St Clement was active in the Macedonian Empire

St Clement was active in the Macedonian Empire.

Well he is born in Ohrid, Macedonia. So that means he is Makedonian. That's becouse Ohrid is in Republic of Macedonia not in southwestern Bulgaria. Use Google map to see for more informations.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.29.246.219 (talk • contribs)

The article Republic of Macedonia tells us that it was established in 1991–93, while St Clement of Ohrid lived in the Bulgarian Empire, over a thousand years earlier. I've adjusted the link to First Bulgarian Empire, so that it is more specific. —Michael Z. 2008-08-28 21:25 z

[edit] Cyrill & Methodius in English

What's with Saints Cyril and Methodii? As far as I understand, they are called Sts. Cyril and Methodius in English, sv. Kyrill i Mefodij in Church Slavonic, but this encyclopedia is written in the former. Did I miss anything?

[edit] Glyphs showing up as MS Mincho

You have Windows XP and the glyphs were showing up as MS Mincho. If you have Vista, the glyphs will be showing up correctly. If you set the font to Segoe UI, the letter Omega will be shown. All other glyphs show up as .notdef, which is a glyph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.233.98.148 (talk) 15:56, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Stop the controversy - Cyril and Methodius were Byzantines

All we know about Cyril and Methodius is that they were Byzantine subjects. Please stop calling them 'Greeks', 'Slavs', etc. All these determinations of their ethnic backgroud are just assumptions without any evidence. But that they were Byzantines - this is undisputable.195.114.112.193 (talk) 09:31, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

We go on sources. The sources say they were Greek. I agree that we can't assume they were Greek, since Byzantium was an empire, but we're not doing that. Do you have any reliable sources stating explicitly that we don't know their ethnicity? kwami (talk) 10:24, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Republika Srpska

What alphabet is being used there - Latin or Cyrillic?93.183.229.75 (talk) 14:46, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

[edit] Paul Cubberly?

The article's history section mentions some "Paul Cubberly". There is no article on such person in Wikipedia, and his credibility is obscure (if any). --91.92.29.19 (talk) 16:13, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Just because the person inst in Wikipedia doesn't bring his notability into question. There are many experts (in their field that is) that do not have a Wikipedia page. On Paul Cubberly, he is a leading linguist, with a specialty in Russia, working with Cambridge University. Thanks, Ono (talk) 16:30, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
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