Talk:Cyrus Cylinder

File:Cyrus cilinder.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Picture upside down

I'm not sure how to do right the situation, but the picture captioned "sample text of cuneiform script" is upside down. Ṭupšarru (talk) 04:08, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Recent edit I reverted

Copying this from my talk page as it is more appropriate and open here: Dougweller (talk) 14:08, 27 February 2012 (UTC) Why did you revert my edit? You deleted my references and the explanation of why the Cyrus Cylinder is often called the first human rights. If you think it is not helpful fine, but I think it is helpful! This is wikipedia and even the United Nations mention the Cyrus Cylinder as human rights charter. This is a free wikipedia and if an international recognized organition like un calls it human rights charter it has to be mentioned here to. Further the sentence "though the British Museum and scholars of ancient Near Eastern history reject this view as anachronistic[9] and a misunderstanding[10] of the Cylinder's generic nature.[11]" is false because not all schoolars have this opinion. This sentence has the effect that you might think that all schoolars think so, and this is wrong There are a lot of other schoolars that say that the Cyrus Cylinder is the first human rights charter. Both sides, the defenders and the critics have to be mentioned in same weight. You complained that I have deleted the mention of the British Museum, ok you're right, this has to be added again. I hope you accept my explanation. Look at the old versions of this article, it was called a long time first human rights charter also in wikipedia. Political controversies between Iran and US shouldn't be the reason to reverse and rewrite everything that belongs to Persia. Best Regards Shah Vazraka (talk) 1:24 pm, Today (UTC+0)

Shah Vazraka restored it with [1]. This version interrupts the telling of the history in the lead & I believe that the lead should first summarise that history, as it did in two paragraphs until Shah Vasraka's edits, then have the 3rd paragraph summarise the modern dispute. Now that dispute is broken into two paragraphs, one in the middle of the 2 paras on its history, the other, about biblical scholarship, the last paragraph in the lead.

The old section about the modern dispute read:

The Cylinder has also been claimed to be an early "human rights charter", though the British Museum and scholars of ancient Near Eastern history reject this view as anachronistic[9] and a misunderstanding[10] of the Cylinder's generic nature.[11] It was adopted as a symbol by the Shah of Iran's pre-1979 government, which put it on display in Tehran in 1971 to commemorate 2,500 years of the Iranian monarchy.[12]

The new one reads:

The Cylinder is often said to be an early "human rights charter"[5][6], the announcement to free the jews from slavery or the fact that Cyrus ordered his soldiers not to frighten the people of babylon[7] are some reasons for this opinion. The British Museum and some scholars reject this view as anachronistic[8] and a misunderstanding[9] of the Cylinder's generic nature.[10] It was adopted as a symbol by the Shah of Iran's pre-1979 government, which put it on display in Tehran in 1971 to commemorate 2,500 years of the Iranian monarchy.[11]

Reference 7 in the new version is [2] which does not discuss the issue of reasons for being a human rights charter, the statement for which it is shown as a source. I also think that the reasons for the debate shouldn't be in the lead. Maybe 'some' is ok, I think the earlier version was more logical and left the nuts and bolts of the dispute to the article where it belongs. Dougweller (talk) 14:08, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Looking at the reply on my talk page, 'some' makes it look like a minority, so that doesn't work either. Dougweller (talk) 14:15, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Just to reiterate the points I made there (sorry Doug), the British Museum owns the Cylinder, so its view is obviously very relevant. As for the other scholars, read it carefully: it refers to "scholars of ancient Near Eastern history". Very few if any experts on the period support the "human rights charter" claim. If you look at the people who do support it, they are lawyers, politicians, social scientists etc - but not archaeologists or experts in ancient Near Eastern History. We can't and don't give equal weight to non-expert views. Prioryman (talk) 14:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

GoetheFromm's latest edit is both absurd and original research, to say nothing of misrepresenting what the edit says, and it gives the game away about the nationalist agenda being pursued here. Shah's contribution doesn't say anything about "European scholars". It's ridiculous and OR to say that the dispute is between "European scholars" and others (I bet you won't find any source that says that). As the current version of the lead says, the "human rights charter" claim is specifically rejected by the experts - the historians of the ancient Near East - as well as by the owner of the Cylinder. The United Nations is not an expert in the field, nor are the lawyers, social scientists and politicians who've advanced the claim. It's a political claim - it has nothing to do with expert opinion. Prioryman (talk) 08:20, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Prioryman, you need to cool down with the name calling and the spurious accusations. I'll consider it an oversight on your part, given your past contributions. But I observe that you are somewhat of a page "dominator," when your views aren't fully supported.

The page needs to reflect that SOME scholar reject the "human rights charter" view. It is clear that there is undue weight on their views. If "human rights charter" question wasn't an issue, then why would some scholars even bother to dispute it? Get what I am saying?

Also, on another matter, the United Nations is an institution designed specifically to promote human rights and it is the best recognized institution as one that does so. So, I don't follow your contention that the United Nations is not an expert on the field of what is considered a human rights charter. Moreover, why are social scientists not considered credible? Isn't social, political, and historical understanding their field of expertise? You consistently seem to place undue weight on what you consider credible, British Museum and the like interpretations of what historical artifacts mean. Mind you that their role is probably best defined as keepers and expositors of the physical elements of the Cyrus Cylinder, not necessarily what the Cylinder means. Let me know if you need me to explain more. GoetheFromm (talk) 19:36, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

@ DougWeller, No some does not imply a minority. It implies not ALL. ie the logical form of "not all" = "some." GoetheFromm (talk) 19:39, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

I cant agree with you Dougweller! The references that I added are surely acceptable. I do not understand why you insist on the way that you think it is right the article should describe the cylinder. It is still so that the United Nations call the cylinder as the first human rights. If it would be in inverse situation you would use this to prove us that our oppinion is wrong. But in this case you don't accept the oppinion of a lot of scholars, scientists, lawyers and even the United Nations just because of some middle east schoolars!? And by the way, not every middle east scholar rejects this opinion. The sentence: "The Cylinder has also been claimed to be an early "human rights charter", though the British Museum and...." tends to strenghten the view that the cylinder is not a human rights charter. Why else are my reference to couple of pages including the page of the united nations deleted and so many references to the opposite side remained in the article? Thats a big question and has no plausible answer other than I have said! As you can see in older versions of this article it was called a human rights charter. You can't change the article only in that way you like it and think it is correct and ignore all of our oppinions and references. The way that I have corrected the article is neither "supporting" one of the sides, it only says what has to be said in a way that is still said!!! I explained the one side and I still mentioned the other opposite side. I dont insist only to mention one side of this dispute! And please don't try to ignore the United Nations because they have a lot of scholars too, not only the opposite!!! Shah Vazraka (talk) 19:09, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

And by the way my friends, this is not a dispute between western oppinion and the government of Iran! This is only the description of a cylinder that includes the declaration of Cyrus the great, the first persian king that freed thousands of humans from slavery and didn't killed the people of the city that he entered and he didn't allowed to rape innocent people!!! Please read the translation of the cyrus cylinder and don't you think that this is not very common for a time 2500 years ago! You can't compare the human rights of today with the "beginning of human rights" 2500 years ago! You're not comparing the todays science with that of 2500 years ago, so don't try to do it in other cases! So please be fair and accept what is internationally accepted and said, even if there are opposite oppinions, as it is in so many other things too. I only insist to be fair and to mention both sides and I think the way that I have edited the article is fair!Shah Vazraka (talk) 19:21, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

This is not a situation where there are two equal sides. There are the experts, the historians and archaeologists of the ancient Middle East, and there are the non-experts like the UN (a political body) and various lawyers, social scientists etc. Wikipedia:Neutral point of view does not require all viewpoints to be treated equally, nor should they be - we have to defer to the experts. The only sources you're quoting are non-expert ones. Prioryman (talk) 21:18, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

The article clearly states " The United Nations continues to promote the cylinder as "an ancient declaration of human rights."" - right? So that's in it and no one is trying to remove it. Shah Vazraka, it isn't up to us to read a translation and decide anything about it. And it certainly isn't up to us or the article to decide whether or not it is a human rights charter, or for the article to pronounce on that. And the livius.org page didn't back the sentence it referenced. Dougweller (talk) 21:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)