Talk:Czechoslovak Legion

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Naming Issue[edit]

With all due respect to the Slovaks, not one history text in english refers to them as the "Czechoslovak Legions" they are invariably refered to as the "Czech Legion" -- note the singular.

Perhaps in Slovakia or elsewhere they are referred to as the Czechoslovak Legions but this is the english wikipedia entry. Can't we stick with the standard historical references? Good slavic nationalism makes for difficult history.

Capitalismojo 05:00, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Hello from The Czech Legion Project. We are located in the United States of America (that's our full name), but we say America. Over here, we say "Chevy" instead of Chevrolet. As a habit, we drop inconvenient words and syllables. And that's pretty much how and why Czechoslovak Legions became The Czech Legion. Easier to say. Easier to remember. That said, it is worth noting that many Slovaks were involved. T.G.Masaryk had a Slovak father and Milan Stefanik, one of the key players, was Slovak (and a French General - very cool guy!). It should also be noted that virtually every Czech or Slovak from the Czech Republic or Slovakia mentions this naming thing very early in the conversation. But over here, in the second largest Czech and Slovak nation in the world - we will continue our habit, with malice toward none - simply because "Czech Legion" is easier to say and remember. And it sounds cooler. Nazdar!!71.57.105.10 06:22, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand Capitalismojo's points of view, but more correct name is Czechoslovak legions - one may use shorter version, but it brings a nationalist issue into question - the legions fought for independence of single state of equivalent Czech and Slovaks, united in Czechoslovak nation, which was indicated by term Czechoslovak legions, not a state of Czechs ruling over Slovaks, which should imply name "The Czech legion". This is not only problem for Slovaks, but for Czechs too. --ja_62 12:07, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

1939[edit]

What about the 1939 legion? Formed in Poland in 1939, soldiers took part in the Polish Defensive War. Source.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  02:57, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Russian Imperial Golden Treasure[edit]

Well, according to several sources (e.g. http://www.pamatnik.valka.cz/stranky/mista.php or http://www.army.cz/avis/areport2005/ar5str.pdf (the last an official Czech Army bulletin) to Bolshevik Government went all the Czar's gold in possession of Czechoslovak legions, except the part threw away by Kolchak during his dictatorship, on March 1st 1920. May someone find any reliable, English-language resource supporting this, and rewrite relevant passages of the article? --ja_62 09:39, 26 April 2007 (UTC)

Gold treasure[edit]

I dont know about English sources about the treasure, but when Czechoslovak soldiers gave the treasure to bolsheviks, the protocol has been written and signed by Czechoslovak and bolshevik members of special comitee. Even bolsheviks agreed the treasure is OK. The money, which Legionaries used to fund Legiobanka, had been those, which they earned by selling all their property and weapons before leaving Russia (they had some factories, trains etc. in Russia in their possession).

[The following submitted by Bruce Bendinger - The Czech Legion Project.] An Englishman, William Clarke, with background in banking, claims to have tracked down deposit records of the Vladivostok branch of a Hong Kong Shanghai Bank that indicate deposits of gold by the Czechs. American author Shay MacNeel claims o have tracked down some transactions in San Francisco in which Russian gold was exchanged for armaments. In addition, we should consider the overall chaos in Siberia. Fron start to finish, $323 million in gold shrunk to $200 million (that's at 1919 prices). For example, there was a huge train wreck that, among other things, included some of the bullion-packed box cars breaking up, strewing gold all along the Trans-Siberian tracks. The account i have claims that in the wreck of the gold train, eight box cars were destroyed, eighty guards killed and thirty more wounded. Eighty killed? Thirty wounded? Wounded in a train wreck? Maybe they meant injured. At this distance, it is hard to determine exactly what went on. Clearly, great raw material for legends and conjecture. That said, it is also exactly correct that there is a paper trail in which the Czechoslovak Legions hand over ALL the gold to Bolshevik forces. These historical documents are quite clear and those who wish to argue that the Legion took home no gold whatsoever have excellent documentation. But balancing those pieces of paper are these facts. 1. $323 million became $200 million. 2. The Czechs were in charge for a significant amount of time. 3. The Czechs were under great pressures - both for ammunition and supplies while they were there and for transportation home for 70,000 of them. 4. There were a wide variety of forces at work and at war during that period and during that time - and who is to know who might have been "free-lancing." 5. Finally, there is the spectacular architectural fact of the bank itself - a glorious bit of architecture. It is, frankly, hard to walk inside and not feel that some contributions were made by the gold of the Czars. And, of course, we'll never really know.71.57.105.10 06:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

According to officer in charge of Vladivostok evacuation, general D. R. Rase, the capital of 70 millions krones of legion savings as well as some other sources was sole money to develop Legibank. He strenuously denies that any russian gold was involve in setting up bank.User: JanC 13:26, 24 March 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.125.233 (talk)

The above mentioned Czech army source- unfortunately only in Czech - states, that after Czechoslovak seizure of Kazan (August 6th 1918), the imperial golden treasure was handed over to officials of Russian provisional governement, and - under Russian military escort - moved to Samara first, then to Ufa, then, under Czechoslovak escort, but with Russian supervision to Chelyabinsk and Omsk (October 1918). Here, the treasure was since November 1918 under control of admiral Aleksandr Kolchak. The second meeting with Russian imperial golden treasure by Czechoslovak Legions took place on January 4 1920 when The Legions escorted the treasure with Kolchak itself and some his officials. During this transport, on night from 11th to 12th January, one wagon, guarded by Russian soldiers in station Tyreť (probably ТыреЬ in Russian, I'm not sure) was robbed, and thirteen boxes with gold were missing. This is the only official admitted decrease in size of treasure, when under Czechoslovak control. The others are accredited to previous Kolchak's "money management". --ja_62 16:13, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
The other thing may be in counting of gold quantity by number of cars - for first time the treasure was transported in 120 wagons (guarding units cars probably included), but trace Omsk-Irkutsk in 1920 it made in "ten extraordinally large wagons made in the U.S." and eight usual railcars. --ja_62 16:21, 31 August 2007 (UTC)
Here http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3955/is_n8_v46/ai_16549033/pg_17 , is clearly, that gold was seized by Kolchak and Semenov and not by Czech legions. By the way, somewhere I read, that Legions saved in Kazan greatest gold treasure of all times. Yopie 23:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yopie (talkcontribs)

While we're here, the following sentence doesn't make sense or is at best confusing: "the Czechs cut a deal with the Bolsheviks – gold and the-then leader of the anti-Bolshevik army Admiral Kolchak for the free passage home (1920). " Did they cut a deal with Bolsheviks for gold? Did they cut a deal with Kolchak? Both? If I remember correctly, they supported Kolchak for awhile and even tried to force him to be more democratic, then they had a falling out and contributed to ending his regime. At any rate, would someone with more knowledge clarify what happened?radek (talk) 00:57, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

On the 4th of January 1920, admiral Kolcak abdicated and ask allied Siberian commander French general Janin to take him and Kazan's gold treasure under allied protection. Czechoslovak Siberian Legions than took the task of securing admiral Kolcak and the gold treasure at Cernorjecenskaja (?) station, and then moved all to Ikutsk. Under pressure of Russian Irkuts Political Centrum government (not bolseviks yet) and some allies, at the evening of 15th of January 1920, admiral Kolcak was given up to "Political Centrum" government. He and then premier Pepeljajev were executed on the 7th of February 1920. Part of the original Kazan treasure was taken in one train late in 1919 beyond Bajkal by Japanese. Japanese general Kato informed allies, that soldiers of ataman Semenov were guarding it in town of Cita. Perhaps, this is the missing treasure some historians refer to as being stolen by Czechoslovaks. Most of this treasure resurfaced after in London and Paris as family treasures of some Russian emigres. Whith the cessation of hostilities treaty between Siberian "Political Centrum" government and Czechoslovak Siberian Legions, all legions trains finally started to move eastwards towards Vladivostok. The gold treasure was then released to now Irkutsk Soviet government as the last trains of Czechslovak Siberian Legions left Irkutsk. All and all, the gold treasure was stored in 10 american railroad cars and 8 box cars, total of 5143 boxes and 1678 sacks. All this was released to soviet commission headed by gen. Seljapin. Not an ounce of this treasure was misappropriated by Czechoslovak Siberian Legions. User: JanC User: JanC/talk 13:00, 24 March 2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.105.125.233 (talk)

Ammahese troops[edit]

Surely, Ammahese is a mistake for Annamese? Annam (part of Vietnam) was a French colony and could have supplied soldiers for an East Asian cmapaign. Ammahese is a word that seems to have no existence outside this article

"Transit Through Siberia"[edit]

The "Transit Through Siberia" section reads like a narrative with editorialized bits thrown in here and there and there are almost no citations; I will do my best to excise the most glaring of these, but someone with more specific knowledge of the subject would be required for the citations.

Also, there is a relatively large amount of bias here in favor of the Legions -- while I understand that post-Cold War historical revisionism has led to the wiping out of any sympathy for the Russian Revolution, the article conveniently skims over the fact that the Legions were an occupying force whose own (very justified, mind you) desire for self-determination was used by some of the most brutal architects (France, England, etc.) of one of the most brutal wars ever fought in an attempt to stop a popular uprising and helping to trigger the Russian Civil War. As someone who understands and sympathizes with the Czech struggle, it nevertheless must be made clear that in this case they were antagonists and aggressors. Undeniably (talk) 06:24, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

Serbian Volunteer Corps[edit]

I have just created the above as a redirect to this article. The Corps is described in this article, but that seems to be putting the cart before the horse, since the Serbian Corps seems to ahve come first. It seems (like the Czech legion) to have retreated to Vladivostock, after which it was shipped to Canada and then to Corfu, or to the Salonika Front. This seems to require an article of its own, for whcih the section in this article would make a good start. Peterkingiron (talk) 14:46, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Contradictory caption under the photo File:Bolshveki killed at Vladavostak.jpg[edit]

Please take part in Talk:Siberian Intervention.-Aronlee90 (talk) 18:07, 21 September 2012 (UTC)

Legions in France, Italy and Serbia[edit]

Hello Volunteer Marek, why did you deleted/moved somewhere all the text about Czechoslovak legions in France, Italy and Serbia? Jirka.h23 (talk) 06:00, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Because this article is about the Czechoslovak legion that got stuck in Russia during the Russian Civil War. This is the most famous of the legions, and hence the primary topic. I moved the text about the other legions to their own articles and there's a disambiguation page Czechoslovak Legion (disambiguation). The other articles could use some expansion. I'm pretty sure (not 100%) but the connections between this legion and the other ones are fairly weak. The stuff on Serbia was about a Serbian volunteer formation, not a Czechoslovak one, with the only link being that they were both volunteer legions. I can take the text I removed and create another article out of that, but it's/was completely unsourced. Volunteer Marek  15:09, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
I dont think thats the best idea, but if you want to have it this way ok. I did only inserted a better linking to other stuff. It will be great if you will create a new article about Czechoslovaks in Serbia. Jirka.h23 (talk) 16:54, 16 September 2013 (UTC)