|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Daisuke Matsuzaka article.|
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- 1 Pictures
- 2 Gyroball
- 3 "Rockets"
- 4 Gyro Ball = Fake
- 5 Protected Vandalism
- 6 Pronunciation of Daisuke
- 7 Dice-K!?
- 8 References The Onion
- 9 April 2007 Debut?
- 10 The semi-final of the 1998 Summer Koshien
- 11 recent defensive remarks about baseball size and control
- 12 Gyroball
- 13 Daisuke Araki
- 14 Video game characters said to represent Matsuzaka
- 15 Minor Changes
Dcyprian 00:58, 13 May 2007 (UTC) I am going to the game on Monday... I will be taking pictures of Daisuke. Would it be appropriate to upload a quality photo hear to replace the so-so one we have from spring training? What is the protocol?
- It would be more than appropriate, but even cool, if you would upload some a good quality picture of yours. When you upload it, you have a couple options. One is to release it into the public domain, which means you relinquish all rights to it. Another is to license it under something like GFDL or Creative Commons license. If you have further questions, you can ask on my talk page. --C S (Talk) 01:11, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
Edited the info about the gyroball based on an article on Yahoo. --Xenod 02:44, 31 July 2006 (UTC)
Isn't it inappropriate to say what the nickname of his wife is based upon one article from "The Track", which is strictly a gossip column and not based on fact whatsoever? I have yet to see a single mention of the nickname "Rockets" from anywhere else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Changer591 (talk • contribs)
- Although I sourced the item (since the reason cited for its removal was lack of sourcing) I don't really have a problem with removing it. "The Track" is a gossip column but it is published in a large-market paper and I don't think there's any evidence they just make stuff up (as opposed to saying, "Rumor says....", but the colmun doesn't say it's rumored that her nickname is Rockets). But we should probably just leave out the nickname here and have sourcing debates on her article if she's notable enough to keep one. - PhilipR 17:38, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- I got a second source for you. On the December 19 edition of WEEI's The Big Show around 14:15 ET Glenn Ordway recounted an anecdote about mentioning the nickname "Rockets" to a member of the Japanese media and getting an embarrassed reaction. I don't know the general Wikipedia approach to electronic media, but my opinion is that it certainly counts as a published source (albeit a sports talk show, and albeit one that's much harder to quote verbatim). Cheers, PhilipR 19:36, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- Funny enough, I was listening to the Big Show when Ordway was clearly joking about the name with the Japanese reporter and how he had "offended an entire nation" (namely the Japanese) by talking about what was "reported" in "The Track" article. He referenced the name "Rockets" (which he had gotten from "The Track" article) throughout the show and with the past history of references of "The Track" on the Big Show, it seemed pretty clear that it was all a big joke because of the trash that usually appears in that column. Also, he brought up the fact that Matsuzaka and his wife were considered on par with "Brad and Angelina" to which the Japanese reporter clearly laughed and denied. I don't generally care that much about it, I just found it odd that a nickname that surfaced in a gossip column on par with stuff in the National Enquirer would appear in a Wikipedia article. Changer591 22:29, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Regardless of all this, I don't know why it's necessary to mention it in this article on Daisuke Matsuzaka. A mention of his wife's name would be more than sufficient. --C S (Talk) 19:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- Agreed. If it's notable (i.e. if she's notable), put it in her article. - PhilipR 02:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Gyro Ball = Fake
I fell for it myself because of that same Yahoo article. It is a fake pitch. The video cited is of a slider.22.214.171.124 20:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)Iamvery126.96.36.199 20:33, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
- But doesn't Matsuzaka's pitch move down and away from lefties, which would only act as a slider if it were a lefty throwing it? It darts in the wrong direction given his throwing motion and what arm he pitches with. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:38, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
- There has been a lot of talk about the gyroball, including ESPN.com writing an article about it not too long ago. The background behind the pitch is real enough-- the two scientists from Japan who developed the theoretical model behind the pitch reportedly did write a book about it. The problem is that if Matsuzaka is throwing it, he's not talking-- he claims he's till just learning it. Regardless, the gyroball was the only reason people knew about this guy before he was posted to MLB, so it should merit a mention in his biography, even if it's speculation.
- The gyro is definitely a fake - here's an article about the whole situation. Boston Globe. Vter4life 02:47, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Note that sports writers are opinion writers in general. In any case, the article at the moment just says that Dice-K claims to be learning to throw the gyroball, which is entirely correct. He is quoted in the yahoo sports article which is cited. Regardless of whather the gyroball is "a fake" or not, he claims he is learning to throw it, and to have thrown it in a few games. C. Scott Ananian 19:32, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
- All I have to add to this conversation is:
- I agree with Scott, Matsuzaka is indisputably claiming to throw it so the article is fine whether the pitch exists or not
- Most of the back-and-forth and documentation of the pitch's existence or non-existence should probably be done at gyroball to avoid repeating this debate on the article of any pitcher who comes along claiming to throw it.
- Cheers, PhilipR 19:45, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I would take it out, but the article is protected. End of first paragraph is the offending sentence. St. Liebowitz 06:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
- I don't see vandalism in the current article. Am I missing something? C. Scott Ananian 15:27, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Pronunciation of Daisuke
Any time you try to render one language in another language, it's going to imprecise, so trying to come up with the single "correct" pronunciation in this article is like tilting at windmills. Check out Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan/Archive/October 2006 (search Daisuke) where possible Japanists appear to be arguing about pronunciation. The International Phonetic Alphabet exists to keep us from having to render one language in another, but of course no one knows how to read IPA so it's still useful to provide an English approximation. But which approximation? Can there be one "correct" one?
Years ago I took a Japanese class; my best guess is that it's between "DYE-su-keh" and "DICE-keh" but closer to the latter. I'm at least 99% sure the last syllable is closer to keh than kay. Native speakers of the language or other knowledgeable people could certainly correct me and I'd have to take their opinion as authoritative. But just because the Sox spell it one way, Yahoo! does a different way, the Globe a third, etc. doesn't mean any of them is wrong. Updating from one source or another doesn't get us closer to a "correct" pronunciation because it's in the eye of the beholder, so changing the pronunciation back and forth is time-consuming and fruitless. Regards, PhilipR 03:14, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Why can't we just leave both there, and say it's somewhere in-between? I recently lived in Japan, speak basic Japanese, and had several students named Daisuke. Dice-K ignores the 'a' (there is a difference between "Dice" and "Dye-ce"), and completely ignores the 'u' (which is spoken quickly, but is definitely still a part of the name). I'd say the proper pronunciation (and my students said this was correct) is "DYE-suh-keh", with the "suh" pronounce very quickly. I guess the "suh" could be left out of it for these purposes, since it is pronounced so quickly, but the "a" sound is definitely part of the name, and is completely ignored by "Dice". Maybe "DYE-ce-keh" is a good happy medium? Regards, Frogsurfer 10:41, 18 December 2006.
- For the record, I think leaving both (after the IPA) is the best solution. My original phrasing, "somewhat between", got reverted out many moons ago because someone had found the One Official Pronunciation, probably from the Sox or somewhere, then someone else took the pronunciation out entirely, and round and round we go. Also the surname used to be in there as Ma-TSU-za-ka, but that's gone now. Regards, PhilipR 17:03, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
- Nonono.... I'm saying the One Official Pronunciation doesn't really exist because Japanese can't be rendered perfectly in English phonology. If it's consensus I'll add back in "somewhat between" but I want to reach consensensus (or better still, document it) to avoid constant reversions. Cheers, PhilipR 18:52, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
- Is it reasonable to write something like, "Boston area fans pronounce his name 'DICE-kay Ma-tsu-ZA-kah', although this is not a faithful pronunciation of his Japanese name."? Perhaps even, "...pronunciation of his Japanese name, which is closer to 'DYE-suh-keh Ma-TSU-za-kah'"? Rather than provide no pronunciation guide, we can explain the variants which are being used, and perhaps link to an article which gives more insight into Japanese phonology? Also, for the record, I think the surname pronunciation should be re-added regardless. C. Scott Ananian 19:01, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
- How about if we include the IPA and one or two good English approximations ("roughly DICE-keh Ma-TSU-za-ka"), and add an expansion on pronunciation in the Boston media/among fans as a footnote? I think the Boston pronunciation is interesting but the pronunciation is beginning to drown out the rest of the lead. (BTW, I can see why people would think the IPA is unimportant but if you check Special:Whatlinkshere/International Phonetic Alphabet it's pretty much the WP standard to render pronunciations, for reasons of precision like we're seeing here.) Cheers, PhilipR 19:06, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
- Maybe add a section on 'pronunciation' and just say "see below for pronunciation" in the lead? C. Scott Ananian 21:10, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
- I like the idea of showing the two pronunciations (i.e. somewhere between "Dice-keh" and "DYE-suh-keh"), although I shudder at the thought of letting Bostonians mispronunciation Japanese become the standard American pronunciation. Frogsurfer 21:59, 18 December 2006 (UTC).
I've checked other Japanese MLB players of all popularity, including Ichiro Suzuki, Hideki Matsui, Tadahito Iguchi, Akinori Otsuka, etc. and none of them appears to focus on alphabetized pronunciation anywhere (Daisuke Matsuzaka is the first ever, apparently). Are we getting too specific on that or we will have to do the same to other Japanese players as well? Or am I being misled? Vic226(chat) 02:59, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- That's a good point. After looking at all this discussion, my belief is that we should just omit that stuff and just stick with the IPA. If people are really curious on how to pronounce "Daisuke", they can learn it elsewhere. --C S (Talk) 19:46, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
- I think this article would make perfect use of uploading an .ogg file with a Japanese speaker clearly pronouncing the "authentic" way his name is said. See the Ségolène Royal article for an example of how to upload and how to place the little speaker icon in the intro. Riphamilton 05:08, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
- I do not like the omission of the u syllable because it's just false IMO, but Chan-Ho's proposal just to omit the pronunciation guide is the best idea yet. Few English speakering readers are going to change their ways anyhow, so it serves no purpose, especially when it is part of the lede. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 188.8.131.52 (talk) 01:15, 18 April 2007 (UTC).
- Heh. Although it seems with Matsui, "Godzilla" is not an entirely flattering nickname (see his article). Additionally, I don't think his nickname every really caught on here (correct me if I'm wrong!), even though for a while New Yorkers were calling him "Groundzilla" in reference to his lack of power initially and large number of ground balls.
- I have a suspicion neither Dice-K nor D-Mat will last. But I agree: these are not good nicknames. --C S (Talk) 22:43, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
- Hey, give it some sime...I'm pretty sure Red Sox Nation will think of something catchy (personally, I'm hoping he's good enough to call "the Japanese Pedro :)"). But really, Chan-Ho is right, no one really calls Matsui "Godzilla". I kind of hope people stick with Dice-K, so at least we'll be pronouncing his name relatively correctly rather than what I have heard in the past "DIE-SUE-KEE". Changer591 03:36, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
- I'm 100% Dice-K will stay, it's how his name will be pronounced and it will only be used for media. Dice-KKKKKKKKAAAAAYYYY! Yanksox 03:54, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
Don't be retarded. Dice-K is not a "non-desire" to spell his name properly. He's a power pitcher with nearly as many strikeouts as innings pitched. Dice-KKKKKK. Again, KKKKK. striKKKKKe. --Lithfo 06:37, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
FYI: I just recently went to the shopping mall at I think Watertown, MA, and saw people selling T-shirts of Daisuke already. They are printed with "Dice-K" on it, with 2 dices next to "Dice" and the "K" being cardboard style (used in Fenway Park to record the number strikeouts, if you remember). Vic226(chat) 08:25, 4 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. This is why I hated seeing D-Mat in trivia. It has zero chance of sticking. I should have linked a Yahoo mailbag article where a couple users begged people to stop calling him D-Mat.--Lithfo 07:14, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
- First, I think you meant the one in the fifteenth reference which says "At the letters: Shooting Dais". Second, as long as the nickname "D-Mat" still hangs around in the media, we cannot disregard it entirely simply for our own preference. That would constitute a POV. Regards, Vic226(chat) 15:08, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I know, but we can at least credit that name to a stupid source. --Lithfo 20:39, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
So how about this nickname thing again? I haven't seen D-Mat in a long time. Dice-K seems to be dominating.--Lithfo 04:27, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
As of April 2012, people are still calling him Dice-K: http://www.pressherald.com/news/Dice-K-dominates-in-Portland-rehab-assignment.html 184.108.40.206 (talk) 21:26, 28 April 2012 (UTC)
References The Onion
I'd like to point out that the article contains a reference to a purported declaration by Peter Gammons. The reference points to The Onion and an obviously satirical article. It should be removed.
April 2007 Debut?
Shouldn't we leave that blank (or at least open-ended) until he actually plays in a regular-season game? Zipster 13:45, 3 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, but hey. People are going to want to know how his first game went and that's techinically his debut.PsychoKyan
The semi-final of the 1998 Summer Koshien
Though this is not necessarrily related to Matsuzaka, I think it should be noted that at the end of the 7th inning of the semi-final, Matsuzaka's Yokohama High School was losing by a score of 0-6, and then won the game by scoring 7 runs in the last two innings. (For the detailed description and box score of the game, see the Japanese article.) The quarter-final's 17-inning game, the semi-final's come-from-behind victory, and the final's no-hitter -- these three games are viewed by the Japanese as a miraculous trilogy, and the 1998 Summer Koshien as a competition for the sake of Matsuzaka. (In addition, in that same year, Yokohama HS also won the Spring Koshien.) I regret that I'm not so good at English as to be able to edit the article myself, and I hope my English is not incomprehensible. HelloManiac 04:17, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
recent defensive remarks about baseball size and control
I noticed that in the recent edits by User: KakkoiiNY s/he has insisted on including remarks that Matsuzaka has some control issues in some outings and a rather defensive excuse that it may be due to baseball size differences. These remarks should not be included for a couple reasons. First, what pitcher doesn't have some control issues in spring training? This is about as notable as mentioning that the Yankees did not play in tip top form during spring. Gee, amazing. Matsuzaka did fairly well, even under media pressure. What more needs to be mentioned?
Additionally, the size excuse is not justified. The source cited actually mentions the difference in baseball sizes in order to state that Matsuzaka should do even better with the larger MLB balls. Using this to justify a statement that his control is suffering because of different size is not only speculation but twisting the intent of the source to say something completely different. I notice someone else removed this comment for a similar "unsupported by source" reason. So he had control issues. Like I said, who doesn't? Do we need to make up excuses for it now and put it into Wikipedia? --C S (Talk) 18:38, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
In the official press conference after his 3rd start (viewable on NESN, the Red Sox home network, and archived on that web site for a short time), Matsuzaka himself states he had trouble with the size of the American ball during his 1st two starts, and has made adjustments.KakkoiiNY 14:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
- Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I think the current short paragraph on his problems with gripping the American baseball just seems defensive, as if Matsuzaka is making excuses, where none are really needed. I didn't watch the press conferences, so I don't know, but I would think he has enough pride that he wouldn't attribute his mistakes to this kind of thing. My feeling is that we aren't doing him any favors mentioning this kind of thing so prominently (especially if he was just making a side remark to some question), but perhaps I am alone in this. --C S (Talk) 22:49, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
The gyroball is not a fake pitch, but a deceptive pitch. (See Gyroball). The Wikipedia post has a good explanation, but to make it short:
The gyroball was developed by a Japanese scientist and baseball coach in 1995. When the ball is pitched, it spins like a bullet, projecting the red dot that hitters see normally only in breaking pitches (sliders, curveballs, etc.). However the pitch does not break, it just travels straight, which will most likely disrupts the hitters timing.
Duel Master101 06:58, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
there's a pitching coach for the seibu lions named daisuke araki....could he be the daisuke "dice-K" is named after?....i was just wondering....i'm aware there are a whole bunch of other daisuke arakis all over japan but the daisuke araki that i'm referring to appears the to be of the right age (okay....i'll just say it out loud....i think he looks old enough)..and the kanji used for their names are the same....so?—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 220.127.116.11 (talk • contribs) 07:42, 16 April 2007.
Video game characters said to represent Matsuzaka
Some editors continue inserting statements (over other editors' deletions) bout the fictional characters representing Matsuzaka in video games. I would argue these should be permanently deleted on these bases:
1. Relevance of this info is highly questionable, considering this is intended to be a serious biography of one of Japan's most important sports figures. 2. The text gives commercial promotion to the 2 products (they could be referred to anonymously), which is contra to Wiki's aims. 3. Equally importantly, there is no citation whatsoever about the 'fake' characters who represent Matsuzaka. This appears to be opinion.—Preceding unsigned comment added by KakkoiiNY (talk • contribs)
- I see this trivia has been removed, but let me make these remarks anyway. #2 is, I"m afraid, not a good reason. If the material is suitable for inclusion, giving more precise details (as to what video game it is) is perfectly acceptable and within the norm (for example it would be needed for verifiability). It should be noted that well-written articles (such as those reaching featured article status) are generally supposed to not have such trivia sections; any relevant info is to eventually be incorporated into the main body. With most of the other info in the trivia section, one can see how it would appear in an in-depth article. So #1 is a good point. #3 is even better yet. Regarding #3, the Andrew Dice-K nickname is not sourced and I admit to being skeptical of it; would a sportscaster really call him that more than once? --C S (Talk) 23:44, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
corrected previous red sox rookie SO record breaking to #156 (155 was prior record) updated total SO to 186 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jcforge (talk • contribs) 17:01, 19 September 2007 (UTC)