Talk:Dalmatian language

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Place names style[edit]

I had edited the intro to the original text to reflect the current place names (Rab, Krk, Zadar, Dubrovnik, Kotor). User Bogdangiusca reverted back to Italian-names only appearing in the English text.

This I feel unjustified. In international usage current official place names should be used, while names as they appear in other languages can be added as an alternative, in parenthesis etc. There is no politics in this - just plain fact. So I feel that at least an alteration (eg. Krk/Veglia or Veglia/Krk, I wouldn't split hairs) is the only justified style and suggest the text be reverted. Hrundi 07:31, 13 December 2005




The Croatian/Serbian language is sometimes referred to as "Dalmatian" in modern usage, however this is a mingling of terminology, and the two languages are not closely related. --203.109.254.40

I've no idea where this comes from, I've never heard anyone say anything like that. Does such self-admitted vagueness really belong to encyclopedia? --Shallot 01:49, 2 Sep 2003 (UTC)
I've heard the Croatian language referred to as "Dalmatian" far more often than as "Croatian". This is from the mouths of Dalmatians no less. The word Croatian was swapped for "Serbian" in that paragraph by a user others claim has a Serbian nationalistic agenda. Crusadeonilliteracy 13:22, 7 Sep 2003 (UTC)
Well, um, my mother is Dalmatian, and at that from the Pelješac peninsula that was part of the Dubrovnik Republic, and I've never heard of any such term. Their language, while in many ways different from the standard Croatian especially in the vocabulary which is full of terms of Italian/Latin origin, is still far more Slavic than Romance. --Shallot 22:57, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

It is interesting to note that Dalmation kept the Latin words connected to the urban life which were lost in Romanian.

I don't understand this sentence - can anyone explain, please? --denny vrandečić 13:49, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)

Almost all words about the urban life organization in Romanian were lost, as it seems that the Romanians lived in isolated small mountain settlements in the Middle Ages (the cities could not be mentained in the Balkans of the Migration Age). It seems that Dalmatians kept an active city life.Bogdan | Talk 14:12, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
Thanks --denny vrandečić 16:41, Feb 6, 2004 (UTC)
I've added Bogdan's explanation to the article. BTW, it's a good one - very interesting. -- ChrisO 17:20, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)
It makes sense according to Dalmatian history -- the region was more or less defined by the Italic city states during those times and Ragusa was one of the important ones. --Shallot 22:57, 6 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I feel that this page will soon turn to have the Lord's Prayer in all Romance languages.

Italian and Istro-Romanian are OK, since they are nearby Romance languages, but what do Romanian and Portugues have to do with Dalmatian ? Bogdan | Talk 20:44, 5 Mar 2004 (UTC)

I understand why the Portuguese is there. It is to reinforce the statement (which I can't neither endorse neither deny) "Dalmatian was actually more closely related to Western Romance languages than to Italian". --Alessandro Riolo 10:40, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I feel the same. Especially about the Portugues, that really surprised me. Even Croatian would be somewhat closer (not because of the linguistic relationship but due to dalmatian history)...
Isn't there already a Lord's Prayer in I don't know how many languages page on the Wikipedia? --denny vrandečić 23:02, Mar 5, 2004 (UTC)

Having read just the Pater Noster, Dalmatian seemed me pretty a bridge between the Venetian (the language spoken for centuries in the parts of the Adriatic sea under Venetian rule) and the Romanian. --Alessandro Riolo 10:40, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)


Currently, the page is self-contradictory. It both had and not had Thracian substratum:

  1. no Thracian substratum - was added by me, but I forgot where I read that :)
  2. has Thracian substratum - was added again by me, but from the French wiki.

If anybody knows more about this subject, please reply. Bogdan | Talk 19:56, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

BTW, can anybody trace the Dalmation word "menur" (="to lead") in Latin or is it a substrate word? Bogdan | Talk 20:04, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Menur is 100% from Latin. It's found in Romanian as manare (and mana, 'to lead' ), Italian as menare ('to lead'), in French as mener ('to lead'), and Occitan as menar ('to lead'), to name a few. Dictionaries give the etymology as "from Late Latin minare (unattested; 'to drive, lead'), from Latin minari (to threaten)". See Latin minax, mineo, minatio, et cetera. The English word menace comes from these Latin words by way of Old French. Alexander 007 00:35, 21 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Bartoli on the net[edit]

Question: is Bartoli's work available on the net, or sections of it. Alexander 007 07:53, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

No, it is not, although the German version is in public domain. Bogdan | Talk 10:06, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

If somebody has the time and the references, somebody should put a link to a partial Dalmatian glossary or write one up if there isn't one. Alexander 007 07:55, 29 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Dalmatian influence on Croatian, etc.[edit]

What's the scoop on this. Are there old Dalmatian words in Croatian, or other linguistic influences on neighboring or nearby Slavs. Alexander 007 07:58, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I just noticed this sentence: Some of its (Dalmatian language) words have entered as borrowings in South Slavic languages and Albanian. They probably did (yes, I'm not being sarcastic, just skeptical), I'm just wondering if anybody can supply examples of such words, as I'd like to see them. Alexander 007 01:43, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Examples: more than a half of all maritime words (fishes, fishing, ships, winds,...) or anything connected to the sea. Many words in common language (especially in Chakavian dialect): MACAKLIN (bullock he-goat), GRIPA /GRIPELA, HRIPA, HRIPELA (stone road built in a specific way characteristical for Illyrian builders) - a quarter of Split has a name "Gripe" (plural!), GARMA (a hole in the stone coast),... in fact a lot of different words and many of geographical toponims in Dalmatia. Chakavian dialect speakers use so many Romanic words that all book can be written here about it. PONISTRA (Eng. WINDOW, Cro. PROZOR, Ita. FINESTRA). There are also many differencies in using of some terms among Chakavians depending on the places (city, village, islands). Sometimes 2 neighbouring islands use different names for the same thing and both names are Dalmatian romanisms. Zenanarh 10:34, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Just checking[edit]

Not that I'm questioning the idea, but I'm trying to find out how much certainty there is behind the statement that the romance Dalmatians were Roman colonists, and not a Romanized population. Even a lack of known substratum words may not be conclusive. Alexander 007 02:57, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

My (single, for the moment) source, Pavle Ivic, points out historical records. Would you like me to check and see if he cites any? --VKokielov 04:31, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
That would be cool. I'm skeptical of things often stated in Wikipedia, and my skepticism doesn't imply that I believe a given statement to be true or false. Until verified, I consider such statements somewhere in-between. Alexander 007 19:24, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

"Croatian"-->....[edit]

I changed the term under "influences," because, if we're consistent, it turns out that there couldn't have been a Croatian language when there was no Croatian people. To put it a little more pragmatically, it doesn't look very good to talk about Croatian here. Plus to be specific never hurts...

Yes, of course this has to do with the language argument in Yugoslavia. But if we start infecting history with that argument, goodness - when do we stop? --VKokielov 04:30, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

Well, while there's argument with regard to whether there were Croatian people in Ragusa, there can be little doubt as to their existence in Zara and Veglia - at least I've yet to see a single reference of non-Croat Slavs in those areas. I agree that a claim that all those dialects are to be called "Croatian language" is stretched, but to state that "there was no Croatian people" is quite incorrect as a rationale. --Joy [shallot] 09:49, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
You're all in a position to influence me. Especially since all this literature is old. Whenever you don't sound out of your mind - which in tvoje case is never - I listen to you. I checked again. There was a nationality to identify with, but not in any modern sense...is what I wanted to say. Anyway, what bothered me was that Croatian, Serbian, and, um, their smaller cousins were all created (like Serbo-Croatian) and appropriated relatively recently. Before that -- this is my impression from my sources -- no one really knew what to call the language spoken all over the territory because the Mean Big Europeans and the Nasty Turks wouldn't let most of ex-Yugoslavia develop and keep an identity. Which was the rule in feudalistic society anyway, so it isn't surprising... --VKokielov 16:28, 25 May 2005 (UTC)

I must disagree about Croatia being created recently. Yugoslavia was a recent creation, post WWI, but Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, etc... all had a sense of nationaltiy long before.

Basic historical data:

around 400BC the first Greek colonies are founded on Adriatic islands

around 100BC Romans rule over the east coast of Adriatic

305. Roman emperor Diocletian in present-day Split

around 600. Croats start moving to what is today Croatia

852. Duke Trpimir issues the Charter in which for the first time is mentioned the name Croatia, in domestic official documents

925. Tomislav, the first Croatian king is mentioned, unifier of Pannonian and Dalmatian Croatia

1102. After the death of Petar Svacic, the last Croatian king, Croatia enters into a union with Hungary

1242. King Bela IV issues the Golden Bull in which he proclaims Zagreb a Free Royal City

1433. The beginning of defense against the Turks, who through time occupy the larger part of Croatian territory

1527. By a decision of the Croatian Assembly, the dynasty of Habsburg comes to the Croatian throne

1699. Croatia is largely liberated of Turkish rule; continental Croatia remains under the rule of Habsburg, and the largest part of the Adriatic coast and islands are under Venice; only Dubrovnik Republic remains completely independent

1815. After the short-term rule of the French under Napoleon, who abolished Venice and Dubrovnik Republic, almost the whole of present-day Croatia enters into the Habsburg Monarchy

1847. Croatian becomes the official language of Croatia in Croatian Parliament (Sabor), replacing the Latin language

1848. Ban (Viceroy) Josip Jelacic defends Croatia against attempts of Hungarian occupation and unites all Croatian provinces

1866. Bishop Josip Juraj Strossmayer founds the Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences, the first in southeastern Europe

1918. After the downfall of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy in World War I, Croatia becomes part of the Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes, later proclaimed Yugoslavia

1941. German and Italian forces occupy Yugoslavia; the organized partisan resistance starts, led by Croatian antifascists under the guidance of Josip Broz Tito

1945. The Federative Socialist Republic of Yugoslavia is proclaimed and within Yugoslavia, today's Croatia is a federative republic

The rest can be found on http://www.hr or more specifically http://www.hr/hrvatska/history.en.html

Dalmatian closer to western romance?[edit]

I deletted that statement because it's not true, Dalmatian never shared the palatalization of the group /-kt-/ as in western romance, but turned it into /-pt-/as in Romanian v.g.: L. octo > Sp. ocho, Fr. huit, Port. oito, but Rom. opt, Dalmatian guapto, the plural of nouns according to the Pater Noster version showed here was vocalic, as in Italian and Romanian, and not adding -s or -es as in western romance languages proper.

The article has it listed as Italo-Western Romance, but Image:IndoEuropeanTreeA.svg has it listed as Eastern Romance. I'm not really sure. — [ ric | opiaterein ] — 19:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm aware now that the confusion is because of the different definitions of "Western" and "Eastern Romance". Some people seem to put Romanian as "Eastern Romance" alone and the rest of Romance in "Western Romance". In that case, Dalmatian is something intermediate. BUt the other classification puts most Italian dialects (central and meridional), and Romanian as "Eastern Romance" (they share features like vocalic plurals, -i as 2 person singular, lost of latin -s and no sonorization of intervocalic plosives). And the "Western Romance" are Rhaeto-romance, French, Occitan, Catalan, Castilian, Portugese, etc. They have -s as plural mark, sonorization of intervocalic plosives, latin -ct- went through a *-xt- > *-çt- phase and then -it-, etc. According to this, Dalmatian is clearly akin to Centro-meridional Italian and RoRomanian, so "Eastern".--DaniloVilicic (talk) 07:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)DaniloVilicic

"Italo-Dalmatian" group? Isn't this language belonging to Eastern Romance languages, together with Romanian? I'll fix this. Kubura (talk) 09:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

It looks Bartoli was right, Dalmatian looks close to the spoken dialects of Southern Italy, specially Abruzzi, Molise, Puglie. However also in some features close to Friulan and Romanian (mainly in the exit -pt of lat. -ct). Has anybody took pains to go on the spot and question local people, I am sure they could make interesting discoveries through a study of personal onomastic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.163.8.110 (talk) 15:09, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Korzulot[edit]

I have removed a paragraph describing "Korzulot", which User:195.194.240.65 claims is a Dalmatian language which has survived into the present day. A cursory check proves this to be untrue and the dialect to be nonexistant. Dewrad 08:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Why did you do this?!![edit]

Korzulot (as a Dialect) does exist you moron. How dare you question its existance. The problem with people like you is that,.. being a Croat Nationalist, you can not imagine your beautiful little country speaking any other language than Croatian. I mean HOW FUCKING DOGMA does one have to get, to deny something as basic as this. What did you do,.. check the word out in google and see whether it turns up?!!

I am a Dalmatian of Italian Extraction, (and a Croatian Citizen). My grandmother was from Korcula(Old City) and spoke Korzulot quite well (might I add). Being so close to both Dubrovnik and Zadar, Korzulot is actually mentioned in the old archives of Dubrv.(found in Sponza Palace).

Don't tell me words like; "Shkoj", "Lenga" and "Zmuo" don't exist. Come on, plz,... I know you awsomely love your country and all that crap,.. but plz don't falsify History.

Just, wow. Wow. Let's have a look at this. First, I'm not a Croat: a cursory glance at my user page would in fact reveal that I'm Welsh. I've never been to Croatia and have no emotional involvement with the country- it's not my "beautiful little country", nor do I "awesomely love" it. That I might be a Croat Nationalist is, frankly, laughable.
What I am, however, is a linguist. And, more, a linguist who has studied the Dalmatian language. In all the literature I've ever read, I have never encountered a "Korzulot" dialect of the language. Vegliot, yes. Ragusan, yes. Korzulot, never. In all the literature on Romance linguistics I've ever read (and, believe me, that's a lot), I have never encountered any mention of a "Korzulot" dialect of the Romance Dalmatian language, let alone any claims that the language has survived into the present day.
Considering that a whole language community does not simply avoid detection or study in Europe of all places, a continent where virtually every extant language has a body of literature devoted to it, considering that you haven't actually provided any academic citations for this newly discovered Romance dialect, and considering that a google search on the terms "Korzulot", "Korčula jezik", "Corzulan" gives nothing except Wikipedia and its mirrors, I can only conclude one of two things:
    • You've mistaken a Slavonic dialect for a Romance one.
    • You're lying.
As we are enjoined to assume good faith, I will assume that it's the former. However, either way, "Korzulot" has no place in this article until proof is provided in the form of academic sources. As such, I've reverted it to the last substantiated version. Dewrad 21:03, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Korčula help Help.com] - "mix of Čakavian (Serbocroatian dialect group) and Vulgar Latin," (which means, as I've read, that "Korzulot" is either Čakavian or "Vulgar Latin", not a real mix, but with heavy borrowing from the other),
  • [SNIP]..."Čakavian dialect is divided"...[SNIP]"...ikavian (western Istria, islands Brač, Hvar, Vis, Korčula, Pelješac)..."[SNIP]
Enough: "Korzulot" is a sub-sub-dialect of the croatian sub-dialect of the serbocroatian language. I'm a swede, so I don't care one attoparsec on the ethnical identity of this or that ethnic group – all screamers are hereby urged to go get themselves an Improved Ego by Education. Rursus 22:03, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Majority of Dalmatia is in the Republic of Croatia. With a point sticking in Montenegro. This means, any literature you're talkin about is found in none other then Croatia. To be specivic the old archives of 3 oldest cities; Dubrovnik, Split and Zadar. To tell me that you haven't seen this word mentioned anywere else, is your problem not mine. Cakavian generally is problematic when it comes to sortation.

Right now,.. You caught me, out of time to moderate anything,.. but bear in mind that this is not over. I agree that the Internet is full of garbage and that Wikipedia is rather shallow, and very speculative (at some places), but Korzulot is real.

Why this screaming?? The screamer being anonymous is understandable enough, making such a bad figure requires anonymity, of course ... but why the usage of such vulgarities and profanities? A better option is to avoid vulgarities and profanities, and then sign the comment by ~~~~! Not very anonymous: Rursus 21:41, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Both Ragusian (Dalmatian) and Chakavian (Croatian) languages/dialects got its variances across the area. Also these 2 idioms were mixing from the early-Medieval so transitions between 2 languages resulted with some really mixed variances saved in the little cities-comunes through Medieval. Korzulot was surely one of these cases. Anyway it is chakavian so... Zenanarh 16:46, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

Romance Language[edit]

Is Dalmatian Eastern or Western Romance? Nergaal (talk) 18:58, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

(posted this above, too) The article has it listed as Italo-Western Romance, but Image:IndoEuropeanTreeA.svg has it listed as Eastern Romance. I'm not really sure. — [ ric | opiaterein ] — 19:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Most probably neither, something between. Zenanarh (talk) 11:17, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
According to Bartoli Dalmatian language "lexicon" kept characteristically Latin element, but there was also perceptible affinity towards Romanian language (Eastern Romance). Bartoli also noted Latin elements from Albanian and Sardinian, comparing it to South-Italian speeches (Puglia and Abruzzo). Thesis from Bartoli's "Das Dalmatishe" were accepted in scientifical circles but not without dispution. Eminent linguist Clement Merlo considered that Dalmatian language was closer to Ladin: "That is a ring, one of the first links towards west, a link on a chain connecting Ladins and Romanians, from whom only beginnings or last links are saved. All together it makes a ring, a chain which was stretched across Dalmatia to other sides" (Veglioto e ladino, Milano, 1910.). All together it seems it was something between, both western and eastern elements involved. Zenanarh (talk) 18:05, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Balkan appeasement[edit]

OK, in order to restore some kind of consistency to the naming conventions in the article, and in order to appease our oddly doctrinaire anti-Italian Balkan contributor, might I suggest that we simply forgo any place-names aside from the current Croatian ones? Dewrad (talk) 07:05, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I have changed names to Dalmatian ones, not Croatian. Zadar was Jadera (Iadera) for Dalmatian speakers, not Zara (Zara was Venetian name from 15th century when the most of them were already Slavized and the rest were becoming Venetianized), Vodnjan was Vicus Atinianus (Latin name) in 7th century when there was large majority of Dalmatian speakers, Italian Dignano came much later and was not connected to Dalmatian speakers in any way, Dubrovnik/Ragusa was Raguia (and some other similar formats) for Dalmatian speakers, although their dialect was named Ragusan in 18th century according to Ragusa, the same thing with others... What's the problem to have correct historical names since the article is about Dalmatian language, not Italian. Italian names developed when there was already a lack of Dalmatian speakers in these cities. Zenanarh (talk) 07:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

[citation needed] Dewrad (talk) 14:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Dalmatian toponyms[edit]

Zadar - Dalmatian: Jadera / Jadra (phonetic Zadera / Zadra per Dalmatian dialect spoken in Zadar), see Talk:Zadar RFC section, no need to copy all of that material here

Vodnjan - Latin: Vicus Atinianus, Dalmatian: Adignani / Dignano!!! - OK I admit my mistake here, in several sources (including Vodnjan) article) I've found this sentence: Vodnjan was known as early as Roman times as Vicus Attinianum and listed in historical records in 932 at the time of Pietro Candiniano..., in some other it was the same but somewhat different graphy - Vicus Atinianus. However I also found a source [1] or the same in English [2] where it's written: The Ancient Romans defeated Histrians and setteled here in 2nd century BC. About this time the territory of Vodnjan was given for keeping to some Attinivs, so the place was known soon as VICUS ATTINIANUM, that gave probably ADIGNANI and latter DIGNANO. The local Croatian folk provided the Croatian transcription with expressions of direction 'in Dignano'... va Dinjane, va Vodnjane, and finally Vodnjan. Well I must apologize here, I'll change it to Adignani/Dignano. I simply made a mistake since Dalmatian was mostly vernacular language while Latin was predominanly used in the documents in the same time, so in some cases cities were documented by their Latin names also a few hundred years after the fault of the Roman Empire, it was a litlle bit weird (Vicus...) but possible for the previous reason...

For the rest of the cities you don't have to go far away, just check Wiki articles... Zenanarh (talk) 18:29, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Those aren't names in the Dalmatian language, though. They're either Venetian names or just Latin names. In one case, you've even replaced an authentic Dalmatian name (Ragusa) with a Latin form- Raugia. Tracking down authentic Dalmatian forms is difficulty: I only found Vikla in a copy of Bartoli's work. To my knowledge, there isn't an attested Dalmatian form of Dignano: Dignano itself is Venetian (the expected Vegliot reflex would be something like *Tinjuon).
Also, for what it's worth, we *do* have authentic, attested Dalmatian names for Dubrovnik and Zadar. They're found in a letter written in the Ragusan dialect in the fourteenth century, the first line of which follows, with the place names highlighted: A ser Pon unuriuol canceler de Ragusa, Todru de Fomat d'Çara saluduui cun oni uostro unur. (Tangentially, I remain to be convinced that Ragusan and Vegliot Dalmatian were dialects of the same language.)
So as you can see the situation is pretty complex, which is why I suggested just sticking to the Croatian names and not making uncited claims about "Dalmatian" names of dubious provenance. Dewrad (talk) 18:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes it's complex but some names can be easily "discovered", for example Zadar - Jadera - it's definitely not Latin, Venetian formats were Zara and hyper-urbanism format Jatara, both developed from indeginious Jadera. In the 14th century Dalmatian language was already largely influenced by other languages and format Çara is nothing but Venetian name of Zadar, not Dalmatian. I know about that letter, it's written by an author under large Venetian influence, so it doesn't give useful information. Actually none of these names is Venetian. Venetians were the biggest enemies of Dalmatian cities and it's hard to expect that Dalmatians used the names given by their enemies. In the contrary Venetian names developed from Dalmatian and Croatian ones much later. The most of present Croatian names developed from Romance (Dalmatian) language names. Latin Tragurium became Croatian Trogir, while Venetian was Trau, Dalmatian format was probably much closer to Latin and Croatian than to Venetian. Venetians never really populated Dalmatia. Whatever it's not incorrect to write Latin names of the cities since these formats were found in the documents (almost all written in Latin during Dalmatian language ages). Maybe Ragusan and Vegliot were dialects of the same languge but something else is interesting here. If you would come here to Dalmatia, and if I would lead you on little trip across Dalmatia, just to hear Chakavian Croatian from town to town, you would notice many similarities but also many differencies in some cases, and all these differencies have roots in different dialects of extinct Dalmatian. The most probably every city had its own dialect. But I'm sure it was the same language less or more. Zenanarh (talk) 21:07, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

So the Dalmatians hated the Venetians and would never use Venetian names for these cities, except for this one guy who happens to be the author of about all we have remaining of the Ragusan dialect? Do you have any academically citable sources that "Çara" is not a native Dalmatian formation? It's because of all this that these dubious "Dalmatian" forms are more trouble than they're worth. Just stick to the Croatian. Dewrad (talk) 21:25, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Zadar - Jadera, Jadra[edit]

Mate Suić: «O imenu Zadra», Zadar Zbornik, Matica Hrvatska, Zagreb 1964 ("About the Name of Zadar")
Page 96:
Concerning the name of Zadar it can be surely stated that it was not of neither Croatian, neither Romance, neither Latin ancestry, it originated in ancient pre-Roman ages... Finished formats of Zadar name were found in the writings of Antique writers and in the inscriptions of the same periods, then later in Medieval documents as Jader, Jadera, Jadra (Iader, Iadera, Iadra) and other graphic and fonetic variances. From this format, the name for ethnicon (name of the habitant) was developed in Antique – Jadestini (Iadestini). Without suffixes there is a basical element (root) iad- the oldest name of Zadar. According to the geographic incidences of that root, it can be stated that it was found mostly in the ethnic territory populated by ancient Illyrians...
Author now discuss about the element adr- and finds it in the Illyrian territory but also it can be found somewhat wider. In summary originating of the name of Zadar should be found in much older past, in pre-Illyrian ages, and it should be concerned as one of those numerous names that ancient Mediterranean population left over across all Mediterranean coasts.
...Therefore toponim Jader(a) / Iader(a) can be considered as Illyrian at the same degree as modern format Zadar is considered to be Croatian, since confidently Jader (Iader) was Illyrianized format of some older toponimy, of unknown initial format.
Page 102-104:
There was one more phonetic change of the name in the early-Medieval, initial J- became Z-, which was a characteristic of old-Dalmatian Romance language… That change supposed to occur very early because it was reflected in Croatian name of the city too...
...name of the habitants of Medieval Zadar with graphy Jaderani, found in the legend about St. Krševan, as thought from 9th century… must be accented that format Jaderani, spoken Zad(e)rani by domestic population of 9th century, cannot be separated from initial old-Slavic format Zadъrane, from which ethnicity Zadrani was developed.

M.Suić: Prošlost Zadra – knjiga 1 “Zadar u starom vijeku”, Zadar, 1981. (History of Zadar – book 1 “Zadar in ancient ages”), page 113:
Ethnicity Iadestinus (pl. Iadestini) was made of frequent formant in Illyrian language –st- which was found together with vocals –i- and –a- , also very possible in the name of Antique Zadar people, if they were hidden behind the name Ίαδαστινοί, from a Greek inscription from Salona in the 1st half of 1st century BC. Ethnicity was ended with suffix –ino which was also often found in the territory populated by Illyrians. Very important is that accent was on the first syllable in both forms Iader and Iadera, which influenced the early-Medieval Romance form Jadra, from which in addition were developed the names of the city in Croatian and Italian language, where accent kept its original place. Jadra was actually only a graphy in official Medieval Latinism, saved by tradition. In early-Romance period it was spoken Zadra, because the group –Ja-, as everywhere, was transformed to Za-. In Venetian dialect, the group –dr- was transformed to –r- (that is one of the characteristics of of that dialect, examples patron paron), in the contrary it was saved in Croatian language, so obviously Croatian name was closer to original form than Italian name, which was undertaken from Venetian dialect. Zadra (female gender) was transformed to male gender (Zadar) by congruence with appellative «grad» ("city" in Croatian language - male gender), in the same way as Sisak from Siscia.

A. Škegro: "PROVINCIALE VETUS – Stari pokrajinski katalog ili Katalog provincija opće Crkve – Provinciale vetus sive Ecclesiae universae provinciarum notitia" , Hrvatska akademija znosti i umjetnosti, Zagreb, 2005
(PROVINCIALE VETUS - Old provincial catalogue or Catalogue of universal Church provinces, Croatian Academy of Sciences and Arts, Zagreb, 2005). [3]
This is translation to Croatian language of the writing (original in Latin) which is full of data about late-Antique and early-Medieval accidents in church and political life of cultural Europe, compiled of several sources from different time periods and finally arranged by an author from the fall of early-Medieval ages. Last changes were from 13th century.
Previously to this edition it was last published by Jacques Paul Migne in his Patrologia Latina, Paris, 1851, compilation of Medieval sources.
It includes one of the most oldest lists of catholic bishops dioceses in Christian Medieval countries.
In the section Civitates Dalmatiae et Croatiae num. XX, 19 Croatian cities were noted as sitting places of dioceses. Zadar was noted as civitas Jadera.
Mate Suić: «O imenu Zadra», Zadar Zbornik, Matica Hrvatska, Zagreb 1964 ("About the Name of Zadar", Zadar - Scientific essays, Zagreb 1964) on the page 102 mentiones a document from Medieval (12th century) Cod. dipl. III 231 where Latin Zadur which was Croatian Zadъr was found. This "Latin" literal variance is an example how Croatian name was used in the documents (written in Latin language) related to the Kingdom of Croatia and it clearly shows the weakening of the second syllable also present in Dalmatian variances Jadera->Jadra. Original source was last published: Smičiklas Tadija, ed. Codex diplomaticus Regni Croatiae, Dalmatiae et Slavoniae, sv. III, Zagreb 1905

page 103:
Further development of the name was in Venetian language. A group -dr- transformed to -r- there... So Jadra, spoken Zadra was changed with Venetian Zara and from there later into Italian literral language. This proves that Croatian format Zadar is closer to pre-format from which modern names were developed.
...The name of the city was also found in old French chronics which were describing the accidents from Fourth Crusade (P.Skok: "Tri starofrancuske kronike o Zadru u godini 1202.", Zagreb 1951, - "Three old-French chronics about Zadar in the year of 1202"). The name of the city was Jadres there. It’s usually considered that this graphy had responded to the local people pronunciation of the name, according to format Jadra which was most found in the documents, with final –s of French language singular nominative. Some of the authors of these chronics were passing through the city so allegedly they were able to hear how native population pronounced the name. However a somewhat different view is much more convincing. In the age of Fourth Crusade Zadar was very important centre, known much far out of Dalmatia; its name written in official Latin was spreading through the documents and literal writings. Therefore much more logical conclusion is that authors of these chronics, written directly after the accidents that were described (a siege), simply Franchised a conventional graphy Jadra (-e- exchanging –a- and adding –s for nominative), taken from numerous written sources and without interference by local educated people...

Summary:

  • Iader - Liburnian or older;
  • Iader/Iadera - Latin during Antique (Greek: Idassa);
  • Iader/Iadera/Iadra (Jader/Jadera/Jadra - spoken Zader/Zadera/Zadra in Dalmatian language) - early Medieval (Greek: Iadora, Diadora-possible error in transcription);
  • Jadera/Jadra (spoken Zadera/Zadra/Zadar in Dalmatian and Croatian), - Medieval (Venetian: Zara, Jatara)(Toscanian: Giara)(French: Jadres)(Arabian: Jadora, Jadera, Jadra - spoken as in English)...
  • Zara (administrative), Zadar and Jadra (spoken Zadra) mostly in use by majority, Zara by Venetians and local noblemen - 1409-1798
  • Zara (administrative), Zadar and Zara in use - 19th and 20th century til 1943
  • Zadar - 1943-present

As you can see the city never really changed its name in last 1.500 years and it was definitely Jadera/Jadra (read: Zad'ra) in Dalmatian. Zara or Çara is the same phonetically - Venetian name.

Scripts of Zadar notars in 13th and 14th century: [4]
Spisi zadarskih bilježnika Henrika i Creste Tarallo 1279.-1308./Notariorum Jadrensium Henrici et Creste Tarallo acta quae supersunt 1279.-1308.Mirko Zjačić, Notarilia Jadertina/Spisi zadarskih bilježnika (dalje SZB) 1, Zadar, 1959.
Spisi zadarskih bilježnika Ivana Qualis, Nikole pok. Ivana, Gerarda iz Padove 1296…1337/Notarium Jadrensium Johannis Qualis, Nicolai quondam Johannis, Gerardi de Padua acta quae supersunt 296…1337. - Mirko Zjačić i Jakov Stipišić, SZB 2, Zadar, 1969.
Spisi zadarskog bilježnika Franje Manfreda de Surdis iz Piacenze 1349.-1350./Notarii Jadrensis Francisci ser Manfredi de Surdis de Placentia asta quae supersunt 1349.-1350. - Jakov Stipišić, SZB3 , Zadar, 1977.
In these notar scripts you can see how Dalmatian name Jadera/Jadra was used in the documents written in Latin language. Zenanarh (talk) 22:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Concerning your comment So the Dalmatians hated the Venetians and would never use Venetian names for these cities, except for this one guy who happens to be the author of about all we have remaining of the Ragusan dialect? It's nothing strange. The point is that in 14th century almost all names found in the original documents in Zadar, concerning the population of the city and surrounding, were Croatian ones. In that moment Venetian name of the city (Zara) was already transfered to other dialects of Italian language (Tuscan etc...). Since trade was the most important business for Zadar prosperity there were many strangers in transition there and some of them settled down in Zadar (See notars in sources above - from Piacenza, from Padua). The number of Dalmatian speakers was already very small, probably concentrated around a several families with longer traditions who were BTW closer to the city elite than to masses. For newcomers from Italian cities it was probably much easier in the begining to communicate and to make relations with them than to Croatian speaking majority. That was how Dalmatian dialect in Zadar became "Venetianized" and mentioned letter is usually taken as proof for it. For our purpose it would be much better to have a letter from 9th than from 14th century. I'm gonna take a look at some other sources concerning other cities, maybe I can find something. If not, your proposal is not bad. Jadera and Vikla is not enough. Zenanarh (talk) 10:30, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Rab - Arbe[edit]

Island of Rab was first mentioned in Greek source Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (384 BC) and then other Greek and Roman geographists by name Arba. That name belonged to the Liburnians, so far the oldest known inhabitants of the island. Arba was also the name of the Liburnian settlement in the place of modern city of Rab. It's not certain how old is this name, the most possibly same old as the settlement, which means from the beginning of the Iron Age, since the Liburnians didn't built the city walls on the island, namely Illyrian-Liburnian Arb meant dark, obscure, green, forested. Therefore name Arba should be comprehended as toponym in meaning of "Black island", due to the rich pine forests once grown on the island.

After 1st century AD it was recorded by many other Greek and Roman authors by names Arba, Arva.

Its Medieval Dalmatian speaking population was using Arbe, Arbia, Arbiana, Arbitana and the most frequently Arbum in the documents written in Latin language.

Arbe became also Venetian name of the city in 15th century when it fell under authority of the Republic of Venice.

Croats translated it to Rab in the spirit of their language (Croatian), probably already in 7th century when they settled the island. However the first record of Croatian name was saved in the middle of 15th century (in a Latin document of establishment of Franciscan monastery St. Eufemija), since the city was slowly inhabited by Croats, not before 10th century, unlike the rest of the island and all of the region.

First known bishop of Rab participated at the provincial assembly in Salona in 15th June 530 and 4th May 533. His signs were Ticyanus episcopus ecclesiae Arbensis (530) and Ticyanus episcopus sanctae ecclesiae Arbensis (533).

Similarity: (Zadar) JadraJadrensis; (Rab) Arba?, ArbeArbensis. In both cases Dalmatian language names with identical formation of genitives in the documents written in Latin language. Also another similarity - for some documents in 13th, 14th century - administrative Latin names developed from initial Dalmatian names: Jaderatina, Arbitana. Zenanarh (talk) 16:39, 16 April 2008

Parable of the Prodigal Son[edit]

I've added the english version. I think what I've put fits perfectly with the dalmatian version. Bardeluc (talk) 13:18, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

It's OK, I added "and He said" at the beginning, because it is in the Dalmatic text also.--DaniloVilicic (talk) 20:29, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

to the editors[edit]

This article and the discussions above are proof of the bias of the compilers. If they were objective they would recognise that:

1) to date there are Dalmatian speakers, one has only to go on the spot and do some field research.

2) according to reliable sources (since the napoleonic times we had censuses: ie the survey conducted by French general Marmont and then the censuses of the Austrian Empire) there were numerous Italian speakers in Dalmatia. These included Dalmatian speakers and other who spoke Venetian Italian as in Zara.

3)All the contributions of the Croat linguists here are biased as they try to prove that Dalmatian language was superseded by Croatian first and that Latin speakers there were later immigrants from Venice Republic or other parts of Italy. However they are unable to give evidence of this fact unless anecdotical. In Zara lived tens of thousands of people before 1943 and almost no Croatians. Is it credible that all of them were not the descendents of the original Dalmatians but later Venetian immigrants? It is only a natural phenomenon that the language of the dominant power becomes accepted by locals when it is relatively closely related as Romance languages are. A good example are the county of Nice and Corse. Speakers of local Ligurian (earlier) and Corse (later) little by little accepted the use of French.

4) It would be interesting to conduct a survey on surnames (easy: just take a phone directory). Many Ragusean surnames look Italian, not Venetians. But similar to those of Abruzzi and Molise or even Tuscany. I can testify that autoctone ragusean families accepted the use of Tuscan Italian having met in 1985 a gentleman from this city who asserted: "My family is originary of Ragusa. In my family we have always spoken Italian". His Italian was good and bore no traces of Venetian influence.Aldrasto (talk) 05:10, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

The Dalmatian language described in this article is extinct long time ago, and is not a "dialect of Italian", but in fact completely separate Romance dialect, separated by Italian by several ancient isoglosses. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 14:17, 31 October 2009 (UTC)

1) There are no Dalmatian language speakers anymore, but a large part of that vocabulary is saved in Chakavian dialect of Croatian language which originated as symbiosis of Dalmatian and proto-Slavic in the Early Medieval through process of Slavization.

2) In the beginning of the 19th century there was around 15.000 Italian speakers in Dalmatia which was around 5% of Dalmatian population.

3) In the 9th century population of Jadera (Zadar) was bilingual: Croatian and Dalmatian. In the 10th century population in Jadera was predominatly Croatian speaking. In the 13th and 14th century almost all names in notary were Croatian. In the 16th century only noblemen were able to use Venetian there. Italianization of Zara (Zadar) was unsuccesful during Venetian republic, it really occurred not earlier than in 2nd half of the 19th century, but Italian domination in population occurred only in 1918 when Italian army entered the city.

4) It was noble to speak Italian in higher circles, which has nothing to do with ethnicity in those times. However it's stupid to reflect habits of a few noble families onto overall population of the city and surrounding and derive completely wrong conclusions from that. Zenanarh (talk) 09:58, 4 November 2009 (UTC)


2) The number of Italians in 1845 was 45 000 according to the Austrian census (see original document, link in the discussion on voice Zadar).

3)unsourced statements.

4) it does have its value: noble and other upper class people were the descendents of the original inhabitants (Dalmatians), Croats were immigrants from the countryside. The upper class had to learn Croatian because there were many Croatians speakers there, and over time started to use it widely, however they knew they themselves were not.

Moreover they were also influenced by the contacts with the Italian speakers from the ports of Italy due to maritime trade: Dalmatian language was supersided by popular Italian or lingua franca, not by Venetian. See the letter you quote above and the letter to 'Cholane de Fanfona' (1397) on the article on Morlacchan language in the Italian Wiki.Aldrasto (talk) 06:47, 12 December 2009 (UTC)

After writing the above post I started to read Lucio's "Memorie di Tragurio..."(link provided on Venezia Giulia and Dalmazia portal Wiki.it). I discovered that he has proved beyond doubt the fact that vulgar latin (indeed Italian) forms creeped into the language of the statutes of Zadar (Zara), Split (Spalato), Trogir (Tragurio) and Dubrovnik (Ragusa), which were all written between the XI and the beginning of the XIV century. He gives lists of words (around 20 for each town) and also quotes long witness statements in perfect Italian, not Venetian.(pp. 190sgg.-204, chap. 2, part 4). This fact proves that in Dalmatian towns a form of vulgar Latin identical to contemporary Italian was widely in use. I shall quote lists below later, I am not good at giving links, sorry.


Example from Ragusean statutes: 1.4 sclatta=family; 13 barca, servitoribus; 14 marinarij; 17 viagium; 18 forasterij; 22 discaricare, caricare; 25 robaria; 29 briga=discordia; 38 sclavina; 40 laborierij; 54 mercantie; 2.3 compagnia; 13 imprestare; 45 pacare debitum, pacamentum; 4.72 bastardus, ruffiana; 5.3 balchionem= fenestra;6.26 robatoribus stratarum; 16 imprestare; 48 vogare barcam; 54 ingravidare; 77 alibamentis.


Example from the will of the Zadar principal,( AD 908!): capita de pecora; uno panno de sirico et uno savano; una coppa de argento; una lena caprina; una butte de vino; uno cavallo; modia de grano; uno feltro parato cum sirico; cum duo filii; ad Zanello... vinea que comparavi de Maria Venetica, et alia fascia de vinea que evvi de Barbano de Crasuni.


A document from Raab (Arbe); ... po' fo vendute le altre 20 circa 1285. Fo partiti tutti li sopradetti denari sesegondo so, se scritto, et Arbe, et eo ai le segurtate. mo se vendute le altre a Ser Antonio Foscari per libre 5, e sol: 5 de gross de dum a' pero' guardo lo pagamento da lo flume.Aldrasto (talk) 11:01, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

It is however really unfortunate and a very difficult fact to interpret, that he does not give us one word of the Dalmatian language. This is all the more inexplicable as he starts with 2 wills from Zadar of the X century and ends with witnesses of the late XIV.

So up to now I think the only certain words of Dalmatian (Vegliot excepted) that we know are the 4 quoted by De Diversis: teta, chesa, pen, fachir. Since the attribution and source of such words are certain therefore we can use them as paradigm by which judge other hypothetical Dalmatian words. And none of the above is.

Aldrasto (talk) 14:55, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

This fact proves that in Dalmatian towns a form of vulgar Latin identical to contemporary Italian was widely in use. - Please educate yourself on the basics of Romance philology and redirect this irredentist nonsense to your blogs and Greater Italy fora. None of this will ever enter the Wikipedia article and you're not deceiving anyone but yourself. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 12:03, 16 December 2009 (UTC)

2) Austrian census was based on "language spoken in public life" (!), not on ethnicity, bearing in mind that Italian was official (proclaimed by fake document in the begining of the 19th century, opposite to decision in Vienna), and that Italian administration was carrying this census locally it's strange how small number it is ;) On the other side, according to words of spiritus movens of Italian community in Dalmatia (forgot his name, but I have it somewhere if you're interested) the real number of the Italians in all Dalmatia around 1820 was around 15.000 - so 5% of overall population. But when nationalistic movements started the Italians started to prefabricate and invent some other much bigger numbers.

3) unsourced? heh quite opposite. There's very rich archive in Zadar. What I've written above is derived from original Zadar documents. Example: 1st prior of Zadar ever recorded in the documents was Drago - a Croat, in the 9th century! Etc.... Maybe it's enough to say is that 1st Italian nobleman in Zadar was recorded in the 16th century, never before!

4) Only Dubrovnik archive has Dalmatian language documents. All other cities statutes were written in Latin, notar language of Medieval Europe! You mentioned letter above. To whom? To Fanfona! Do you know who was Fanfona? Or Fanfogna, Fanfonja,... - Croatian nobleman. Surname Fanfonja in Croatian means: one who speaks nasally, through his nose. ;) Zenanarh (talk) 11:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

it does have its value: noble and other upper class people were the descendents of the original inhabitants (Dalmatians), Croats were immigrants from the countryside. The upper class had to learn Croatian because there were many Croatians speakers there, and over time started to use it widely, however they knew they themselves were not. - this is complete ignorance of history of the western Balkans, it's not your fault, it's fault of those authors who feed you with such nonsense. The Croats came in the 7th century and settled Zadar region (Liburnia), after the 8th century they also moved to Dalmatia and then wider. However, by archaeology their number was relatively small in comparison to the number of the indigenes - selectively Romanized Illyrians, Dalmatae, Liburni. These Croats were political warrior group - they Slavized the indigenes. It's enough to say that modern Croats in Dalmatia have absolute peak of I2a2 Y chrommosome haplo-group (original Paleolithic Europeans) in Europe, 50-60%. Zenanarh (talk) 11:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

But it's offtopic. You seem to have no basic knowledge about your own language, how else to interpret your comments about vulgar Latin etc. I can only repeat Štambuk's words: Please educate yourself on the basics of Romance philology and redirect this irredentist nonsense to your blogs and Greater Italy fora. Zenanarh (talk) 07:20, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Dalmatian and other Romance languages[edit]

Romanian: Lat. p to D. and R. t (as in pater, tuota, tatal). However (panis, pun or pen, painea).

Istriot: in the discussions above it is not mentioned. BTW this looks odd as there is a point concerning the name of Dignano/Dignani, a place where Istriot is the original local language as long as Rovijn/Ruveign,Fasana, Gallesano ecc. So these are the original toponims. See the relevant articles on wiki. Istriot has its own literary tradition too. See also Istrianet for comprehensive information about Istriot. It looks that D. was closer to Istriot than Friulan.

Jadera: it is probably related to Adria (Hatria), an ancient toponim of uncertain origin.Aldrasto (talk) 14:20, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Jadera is Zadar. Read "Name" section in Zadar article. It is Pre-Indo-European, Venetic Adria/Hadra, Liburnian Iadera, name of Adriatic Sea, ader - Illyrian word for water, a bunch of similar toponyms on many Mediterranean shores with with root -adr-, even river Ader in England. Obviously some hydronym. Zenanarh (talk) 14:38, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

If Adria is Venetic then it is Indo-European. According to most recent research Venetic is strictly cognate to Italic languages (and not Illyrian or Celtic as previously believed). However I think Adria is not originally Venetic, since it is attested in the form Hatria, Etruscan. Etruscans probably inherited it from Illyrians. The forms ader, dor- (rivers), etc are IE. See Greek hydor too.

BTW while reading Lucio's "Memorie..." above I found that at p.174 he quotes Villari' "Chroniche" and there the form 'Giadra' is attested. So Giadra for Zara is not a hypothesis, it was really in use in Italy before the Venetian form took root.Aldrasto (talk) 15:09, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

Giadra? I know for Tuscan Giara, so Giadra is obviously another Tuscan form, probably older and more close to indegenious Jadera (pronounced Zadera or Zad'ra) in Dalmatian. Zenanarh (talk) 08:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)
About Adria, yes I agree with you, some scientists stated that Adria was Liburnian colony by establishment, but then populated by Etruscans and maybe Veneti. But its name (as well as Zadar's and Adriatic's) is the most possibly older than any of these ethnic groups. It doesn't matter if the language is I-E. It can save P-I-E archaisms. Many toponyms at the eastern Adriatic coast are P-I-E. Yes I know for Greek form and even other forms like Croatian voda or English water came from the same pre-form. What makes me confused is that info of PIE origin of Zadar name came from an eminent historian in the 60's of the last century. Zenanarh (talk) 08:19, 17 December 2009 (UTC)