Talk:Datura

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Plants (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Plants, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of plants and botany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject Psychedelics, Dissociatives and Deliriants (Rated C-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Psychedelics, Dissociatives and Deliriants, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of hallucinogens on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 
WikiProject Medicine (Rated C-class, Mid-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Medicine, which recommends that this article follow the Manual of Style for medicine-related articles and use high-quality medical sources. Please visit the project page for details or ask questions at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine.
C-Class article C  This article has been rated as C-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Mid  This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Old entries[edit]

Some of the info in this article looks doubtful to me:

  • All members of the family did the original anonymous author mean All members of the genus, or did he/she did mean family? If the latter, the text should be moved to the family.
    • Good question. In the context, I'm guessing he meant genus and going to fix it that way, but Solanaceae as a family are full of toxins aren't they? Even our good buddies the tomato and potato? Gzuckier 20:03, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • Datura was supposedly used in witchcraft - how sure is this? are there any sources? This tidbit of information by now has spread to the german and dutch wikis, but are there any sources?

Prometheuspan 01:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC) Don't ask me to fetch them for you, but yes, its well established. The formulae called for mixing boiled liquid with several other plants, and applying it to the skin.

Alternately, and, maybe something we don't need to bother mentioning, the myth of Witches "flying" on brooms actually comes from using brooms to apply Datura and other substances intravaginally. (and Anally.) Prometheuspan 01:04, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

TeunSpaans 05:50, 27 Aug 2004 (UTC)

    • Back in the 60s, when grammie and grampie were wasting their youth in search of more substances to abuse, use of Datura was definitely 'borrowed' from shamanistic practices of the Native Americans (or Injuns, as they were known back then) as referenced in many books on suchlike topics. See also Carlos Castaneda, IIRC. Still many pages all over the Net detailing the use of Datura in 'Magick' rites. Kids! Don't try this at home! The stuff can be pretty damn fatal, ain't like smoking weed! Gzuckier 19:56, 11 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Check Whiskey Rebellion reference[edit]

The article refers to British soldiers being sent to stop the Whiskey Rebellion, but that rebellion happened in 1794, after the US was independant from Britain. Wrong nationality? Wrong rebellion?

Photograph[edit]

I recently uploaded a bunch of photographs, among which one of a Datura, but I don't know which datura it is. I'd like to put it in the right location, so if anyone can identify it...? See User:DirkvdM/Photographs#Plants_and_Animals. DirkvdM 09:30, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

Severed tongue/penis[edit]

Unless this allegation can be sourced it seems to be an urban legend and should be removed. Pacian 01:29, 2 December 2005 (UTC)

Although im sure this carries no weight, i remember the severed penis story from when it first happened, opened my eyes to how scary this stuff is

Prometheuspan 01:01, 10 February 2006 (UTC) I think as a warning it is only half way there, and I'd rather see it deleted myself, its too off topic.

What we need is to point out that its potentially lethal if ingested, and that the effect is total suspension of reality for 3-12 days. Users should be in a safe place, and babysitters are an absolute necessity.

3-12 days?? Sorry, but I can tell you don't know that much about datura use. At the MOST the trip will last 2-3 days (with an dangerously high dose). A more common dose would generally give effects that would fade in 6-12 hours. Anecdotal of course, but these are facts I've learned over the years.--68.217.162.212 (talk) 21:04, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

No sharp object should be accessible, no poisions should be accessible, dah dah dah...obvious stuff.

I don't think this page should become an extension of Erowid, so we don't need to be handing out safety tips. It should be facts about the plant, its' history, and the established pharmacology of its active ingredients and nothing more.

Kst447 (talk) 08:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Lethality[edit]

somebody should mention somewhere in this article that ingesting any physical part of the actual plant can be lethal.

There are kids dying all the time from reading articles like this one which didn't mention this important problem.

Generally speaking, the only safe way to ingest Datura is as a Tea, and Witches made a lotion of it and put the lotion on their skin. Prometheuspan 00:57, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I was only looking this up after I was told a person who attended school in the grade below me died after taking datura. His story is here, if you care:

http://www.abc.net.au/stateline/tas/content/2003/s944974.htm

Shamanic Protocols[edit]

Also, I think that we should actually find and post the Shamanic protocols, or kill the article, because in this case, the Shamanic Protocols do mean the difference between life and death, and the protocols are the means by which theoretical responsible use becomes a reality.

Removed[edit]

Graham Phillips in "The Moses Legacy: The Evidence of History" suggests that a Sinai species of Thorn Apple was "the bush that burns", the "Burning Bush" of Moses and was used as an enthogen by the ancient Hebrews.

As there is no firm botanical evidence for this claim (i.e., Datura did not occur in Sinai at that time) - MPF 15:16, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Self mutilation[edit]

I found this on the Wikipedia penis removal page:

  • On 2003, a German student known just as "Andreas W", from Halle cut off his own penis and tongue with a pair of garden shears while under the influence of the deleriant drug datura. Neither organ was re-attached successfully.

Should this be mentioned in the page? I guess it's not uncommon to self-mutilate oneself when hallucinating, but the point is specific to datura. Jumping cheese Misc-tpvgames.gif Cont@ctFace-smile-big.svg 09:45, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Its not actually as common as you may think. I know several people who have tried datura (practicaly everyone in 8th Grade, at the time, including myself). The delirium was confusing and blurry, but I have never heard of anyone doing something as insane as severing their genitals, nor any kind of self-mutilation. I can only speak of my own expierience, but never heard of anything like what you mentioned. And about the overdose thing, if you research datura before you run and grab the seeds, it is very easy to avoid an overdose. The problem with the overdoses are people that don't no what their doing. Not at all trying to advocate datura use, just wanted to clear a few things up.--68.217.162.212 (talk) 20:55, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Ritual use[edit]

Datura is actually from sanskrit not hindi. It has been used in many religious rituals among some of the more esoteric hindu sects and still does in some. Perhaps this could be mentioned in the page?

In the eastern and north eastern part of India Datura or "Dhutra" as it is commonly known is a prime offering to Lord Siva on the night of Maha Sivaratri.

Effects of ingestion[edit]

The first paragraph of this section badly needs some inline references. It isn't necessarily inaccurate, just totally unsourced. (See the official-sounding explanation of the anecdotally reported blindness associated with ingestion. No offense intended, but where the hell did THAT come from?) Lou Sander (talk) 14:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Distribution[edit]

The first paragraph says the genus is probably native only to the Americas and that it was known in India millennia ago. Yeah? —Tamfang (talk) 22:45, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Maybe the editor(s) who wrote the geographical distribution material have been drinkin' a little Datura tea. Seems like a rewrite, complete with sourcing, is needed. Lou Sander (talk) 00:08, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I just came here to say the same. Apart from the vedic aspect, I also find it more than a little puzzling that the paragraph goes on to state "It also grows naturally throughout India and most of Australia", without any explanation of what the difference between native to and grows naturally throughout is supposed be. Utterly bizarre. I'm inclined to agree with the comment above! ;-) Anon 69.225.135.108 (talk) 08:05, 29 July 2008 (UTC)
If you look at the section on the origin of the name you will also see a mention that the origin can only be traced back to sometime in the 1600's followed by an ancient Sanskrit pedigree. I think we are witness to two different perspectives fighting for control. One who claims it was an American plant imported to India, while another claims an ancient provenance in India. Note all the "citation needed" following claims of an ancient Indian provenance. I think someone is pressing unsubstantiated claims which are in conflict with the original text. Just a guess though. 68.32.172.192 (talk) 01:22, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

I found a reference on the origins and distribution. It excluded the Asian, etc. stuff, so I deleted that stuff and included the citation. Apparently the editors who put it in had confused Datura with the similar genus Brugmansia. Lou Sander (talk) 14:18, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Cultural references section[edit]

Per the tags, sections like this should be avoided, this one is basically unsourced, and may contain spam and poor or irrelevant examples. It seems to be a catchbasin for any mention of the word "datura" anywhere in the world of culture.

I propose to remove this section entirely. I'll wait a while for comments, then I'll delete it. Lou Sander (talk) 14:25, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

There have been no comments on the above proposal for seven weeks. Citations were requested for all or nearly all entries in this section in early August, and none have been provided for nearly four months. I'm going to delete the entire section, plus the related tag(s) on the article. Lou Sander (talk) 15:20, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

Description Section[edit]

Changed stalk description from "woody-stalked" to "herbaceous" (herbaceous-stalked does anyone think?) per Preissel. Reference for the paragraph stays the same (pp. 10, 11; first English edition).

Changed "closely allied Brugmansiae" to "closely allied Brugmansia" (spelling). Tom Hulse (talk) 07:59, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Effects of Ingestion[edit]

I'd like to solicit comments regarding a possible revert of a recent edit by User:Buntfalke, including the following line 67: "A number of usage and toxicity reports covering Datura and preperations of it can be found at Erowid." The main purpose of that site is instructional for illegal drug use, inclulding headings under Daturetea that read "Glowing Experiences", and subheadings under that such as "My Best Experience EVER!!!!!!". The real practical purpose of this sentence is to aid drug users in finding information to help them in illegal activity ("preperations"[sic]), and I believe it is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Tom Hulse (talk) 09:13, 8 March 2010 (UTC)

Common Names[edit]

Regarding Ringbang's [recent edit], where most all of Datura's common names were moved to Datura stramonium, I believe we might have gone a little too far. I agree with, for instance, moving "Jimson weed" there, because it is particular to D. stramonium and not Datura in general, but perhaps not most of the others. "Thorn apple" for instance is used by the leading modern reference, Dr. Preissel, in Brugmansia and Datura: Angel's Trumpets and Thorn Apples.  to represent all Daturas (8 of the 9 Datura species have thorns on their fruit). "Devil's trumpet" is used typically as a counter point to, and on an equal level as Brugmansia's general name of "Angel's trumpet". The common saying, used help new people remember the difference, is that Angel trumpet's flowers hang down as angels look down from heaven, and Devil's trumpet flowers face up as the devil would look up from below. I would appreciate any references that isolate these names to specifically D. stramonium only. Thanks! Tom Hulse (talk) 20:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)