|This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Dave Matthews article.|
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- 1 Early Life Math Doesn't Work Out
- 2 Blanking
- 3 Bartender?
- 4 Discography
- 5 Bisexuality?
- 6 Discography Blanking
- 7 daves father
- 8 african american
- 9 agnostic at one time, but...
- 10 Removal of External Links
- 11 Guest appearance in House 3.15
- 12 Early Life section, poor writing
- 13 Reverting tecmo
- 14 The flag
- 15 Zohan
- 16 Equipment
- 17 Songwriting
- 18 African American category
- 19 Getting to GA Class
- 20 Drug Use
- 21 Childhood chronology
- 22 Daugthers
- 23 New images available
- 24 BAMA Works
- 25 Genres
- 26 Charity
Early Life Math Doesn't Work Out
Something is wrong with the first two paragraphs of the Early Life section. He was born in 1967 -> Early Life P1 says his family moved to Westchester, NY when he was 8 (1975) -> Early Life P2 says the family moved to Cambridge, England in 1974 for a year before returning to New York. P2 implies that the family lived in New York prior to 1975 through the term returning, but P1 says the family initially moved to New York in 1975. These paragraphs are cited, but its not an online source so I could easily check it out. ... someone who knows the chronology of Dave's youth should fix this section. Guest ... 184.108.40.206 (talk) 04:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
It looks like someone decided that it would be funny to change information throughout this page. Could someone please fix this immature prank?
I was under the impression that Matthews was a bartender at Miller's rather than Trax. He could have worked at both places, of course, but when I lived in C'ville the local lore always referred to Matthews working at Miller's.
Could we get a discography, more info about the band? Other stuff like other bands' pages have.
- Well, this is a bio article, so most info that's strictly about the band should be confined to Dave Matthews Band. This does need more on his solo album and all that, though. Everyking 05:47, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Anyone know anything about his alleged bisexuality? Alison9 07:40, 27 Jan 2005 (UTC)
- I have yet to see any sort of credible story on said topic. Everything I have seen has been equitable to schoolyard taunts. Bbatsell 12:10, 9 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Dave Matthews is nothing near an admitted Bisexual. I really hope that someone will please change that and quit this immature libel.
- Yes, I reverted that as soon as I saw it. It was pretty clearly just vandalism. Bbatsell 10:38, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
The Discography on this page has been deleted twice now, with no justification in the edit summary - could someone explain why this is being done? Bbatsell 04:46, 1 October 2005 (UTC)
- I'm not the one who deleted it, and I can't speak to their reason for doing so, but I'd like to see the discography on the Dave Matthews Band page instead of here. B.Mearns*, KSC 15:09, 27 March 2006 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure daves father died from Lung Cancer and he was a non-smoker. Just wanted to put that out there. I don't think it was Brain Cancer
Did Dave's dad die in New Jersey or New York? Two wikipedia article's say two different things, and I can't find the truth online.--Esprit15d 17:50, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Teh african american "essay" was orginal reserach and hopelessly POV. I rewote it according to encyclopedia standards and referenced.--Esprit15d 16:48, 19 June 2006 (UTC)
agnostic at one time, but...
I have no actual information on this subject, other than the knowledge I have of Dave's work. But I couldn't see describing someone who penned songs like "Bartender" and "A Christmas Song" as agnostic. But, that's just me. Maybe Dave somewhere himself said it that I'm not aware of. I'm just worried someone is projecting their own POV onto Dave's.
In interviews, particularly after the death of his sister a decade ago, he would say things like "if there is a god, he's a cruel bastard," indicating the uncertainty that marks an agnostic. Now, he may well have made up his mind way or the other since then, but if he's said so on the record, I've never spotted it, and I follow such things rather closely. Let's see if I can track down a source for that, so that it can appear in the entry with a proper citation. --WaldoJ 12:59, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
- Found a reference, so I'm going to add it. McDanger 09:39, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
He may have been an agnostic before, but it appears he has changed his views a bit. Check out this link. I'm not sure it needs to be incorporated into the actual Wiki article on Dave, but is worthy of discussion here. <a href>http://www.christianitytoday.com/music/glimpses/2004/somedevil.html</a> The article does not say definitively that he is now a Christian, but there is a quote in there from Dave which does not sound one bit agnostic.
- The quote in that article ("[I've been] washed by the blood of the lamb") is ludicrously unlikely. Those words would no more come out of his mouth than a rabbit might emerge from my spleen. Also, the work attributes the statement to a venue in which it was not actually made. The author says that Matthews made the statement on video, as aired on VH1, but I've seen that episode, and didn't contain any such quote from him. Which leaves us with the more likely possibility that it's hearsay -- the author is saying that there was an event at which Matthews was present and that some "kids" said that he "affirmed" that "he had been 'washed by the blood of the lamb.'" That just sounds like your standard unsubstantiated rumor about a famous person. The source -- "Christian Music Today" -- does nothing to add further credibility to this.
- --WaldoJ (talk) 03:05, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
Removal of External Links
Hey peeps, as most (if not all) of those external links are for the band and not dave personally, i axed them (eeck.. don't kill me). I added a see also section that points to the band page here. I'm going to clean up and fix that link section right now :-) Wolverinegod 15:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
RE: The first "citation needed" regarding Dave's "evils of government" quote. This quote comes directly from the official Dave Matthews Band website, at http://www.davematthewsband.com/member/dave but not familiar enough with editing wikis to be able to add the url as a citation. --MMG 25/9/2006
- Tecmo Banned Indefinitely. FYI--Wolverinegod/Tecmo has been banned indefinitely for repeated violations of Wiki policy.--Epeefleche 01:30, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
Guest appearance in House 3.15
News has it that Dave Matthews is gonna appear in the 15th episode of the 3rd season of House. Link: http://www.houseisright.com/2007/01/06/326/
Early Life section, poor writing
I came across this as I was doing some research, and I thought I would bring this passage to the attention of actual editors.
"The Matthews family consisted of four children: Dave, two sisters (Anne and Jane) and a brother (Peter). Two years later, his family migrated to Yorktown Heights in Westchester County, New York, where his father, a physicist, went to work for IBM."
Does anybody know what the "Two years later" is referring to? If it is his birth (which I am guessing it is), I would think that it should be stated. If it is referring to something else, then it is possible that part of this article under this section is actually missing. 220.127.116.11 00:53, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The reason for removing these links was originally given here. Tecmo was correct. Read WP:EL sometime--those links qualify as a linkfarm and they are completely not on topic. You've been warned about the removing of Tecmo's edits post-ban. If there is a content related reason to do so, go ahead. "Why not" is not a content related reason. Especially with ELs. Miss Mondegreen talk 14:07, July 25 2007 (UTC)
- I put those links in because I believe that they are helpful and appropriate links under EL. Someone else put them in in the first place; quite possible for the same reasons. These have nothing to do with a link farm, if you look at what the definition of a link farm is. They are on topic. Please explain why you do not think they are. Tecmo, btw, was a disruptive user who was banned for going through articles and deleting ELs that were good, while asserting that they were link farms. Please do not engage in Tecmo proxy behavior. I note that you have asked him in general for suggestions as to what actions to take after he was banned. Please do not act as a banned user's proxy.--Epeefleche 15:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Epeefleche--this went to ANI, and you lost. I am well aware that you have issues with Tecmo--they are irrelevant. Your issues with him, or in general are really interfering--when I ask for a content related reason I shouldn't hear continued personal attacks towards both Tecmo and myself. You've been told again and again that you can't revert for personal reasons--only content ones. And if you're just providing them for the heck of it, or to fully inform users or for whatever reason you can think of--stop. Find a way to edit wikipedia without attacking other people please. Miss Mondegreen talk 08:55, July 26 2007 (UTC)
- Miss M, you mischaracterize completely. Again, sadly. The resolution of the issue of Tecmo's disruptive deletion of ELs was reflected in the decision to ban him for such activity. Over your vociferous, circular, overly long, and baseless objections. The ELs here that have been restored are appropriate for the article. If you continue to restore ELs of a banned user as his proxy -- which I see you have volunteered to be -- you are violating Wikipedia policy.--Epeefleche 13:51, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
- The resolution of Tecmo's disruptive behavior, in large part incited by you was a community ban, though with the ability to come back, a path he's chosen not to partake. If you want to restore ELs, or more correctly ADD ELs to the article, but in an edit summary that says that you're adding Els and explains why. An edit summary that sites Tecmo's ban surpresses disagreement, because it implies, incorrectly that the edit was reverted in enforcing WP:BAN, and that disagreeing with the revert, or reverting the revert will carry penalties. That's a problem. So, if you want to add ELs, even ELs that Tecmo removed, that's fine, but the edits are going to have to stand on their, and not use WP:BAN to keep them around.
- Let's clear this up, again. I did not offer to be his proxy. You violated WP:BAN, and I was one of several editors trying to take care of this situation, not only for the particular situation, but for the more general message it sends. People accused of sockpuppetry are often innocent, banned users contributed to the community, and Wikipedia has a habit of as soon as an accusation is made, throwing the editor out. While, longstanding editors with much to their name, can often get away with murder. Ironically, the majority of Wikipedia's content is contributed by the former, not the latter.
- And so while we could deal with some of your edits, your contribution list was too massive to go through, the extent to which you went after Tecmo's edits to long and convoluted to be undone by one of us. So I suggested that rather than let you get away with it, and rather then resort to sockpuppetry, yet again, Tecmo e-mail one of the editors handling the situation with a list of your diffs. The editor would presumably post the e-mail, or relevant parts on WP:ANI, and the situation would be taken care of.
- Others disagreed with my proposal, and that was the end of the matter. But suggesting that a banned editor e-mail me is not against any rule that I know of.
- In re this article, I reverted you as appropriate: you were abusing WP:BAN. You reverted me with the reason "why not" for the ELS--there's a talk page which I know you know how to make use of and you could have easily provided a real reason. I reverted you, and you reverted me again, this time accusing me of acting as Tecmo's proxy, and still not providing a reason for your edits. This would have continued and gone back to WP:ANI, where I was told to return if there were further problems with you, but another editor stepped in and explained the issues with the ELs, and now it's up to you guys to fight about in terms of content....the way it should have been all along. I have no interest in this article, or picking up someone's else's battle over a year old edit. Consensus changes, content issues should be revisited from time to time. But when they are, they should be given specific reasons--this guideline has changed, I think these are good on these counts, etc, not "Tecmo is a sockpuppet and Miss Mondegreen is his proxy!!" Lay off of the personal attacks. Miss Mondegreen talk 10:42, July 27 2007 (UTC)
- Miss M -- Tecmo had been banned indefinitely for disruptive behavior in deleting ELs, much as you are doing here. Since his ban he has continued to violate his ban by coming back as a sockpuppet. He has the right to ask to be allowed back, as all banned users do, no matter how disruptive behavior, but that is all. I'm puzzled as to why you continue to try to defend him. The officiousness of your tone does not add credence to your statements. As the above diff clearly shows you did offer to be the banned user's proxy. As to the ELs, you deleted ELs, such as the ones mentioned below, without any explanation -- presumably only because Tecmo had, and would if he were here -- without any cogent thought. Per my agreement with Onorem I have restored 3 that you and Tecmo deleted. Pls stop acting as his proxy. I'm not about to encourage you to clutter up this page with off-topic banter, so other than this I'll simply stick by my above comment and diffs.--Epeefleche 14:17, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
[The next two paras are moved here from EF talk page]
It looks like fansites aren't specifically mentioned at WP:EL anymore, but I really don't see how they are more than just specialized personal web pages. Farm Aid is already linked to from his page, and people can find their link from there. If it has to be there, I'd prefer to use the link as a reference about his being a director and remove it from the external links. The file sharing site...I guess that one's fine since they are one of the few bands that don't mind people recording at their shows. I suppose I don't have a problem with the tabs or almanac links either. --Onorem♠Dil 21:11, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Cool. I will start by putting back those, and give some more thought to the fansites.--Epeefleche 22:58, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
- Typepad link was removed
as it is on the spam blacklist.TABS should not be linked in any wikipedia article because of the uncertain copyright status of most TABS... this has also been removed. I don't see much merit in keeping the file sharing site even if DMB is fine with sharing... it is a bit too advert-y to me. The almanac I could go either way on... but I didn't see much merit in it so I removed it.--Isotope23 talk 14:15, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why it was the old flag. Someone had changed it without explaining their reasons, and it seems nobody noticed. I've changed it back. --Onorem♠Dil 13:40, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeah... Dave's in the new Zohan movie. I saw an IP try to add the info, but since it looks too ridiculous, I think they removed it. We should try to work this in better... but yeah. He's here, and yes, he does play a redneck trying to kill arabs. Qb | your 2 cents 14:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
There is nothing at all that mentions that Dave writes most of the lyrics for his band's songs. Anyone have any evidence to this effect?
- It was probably removed in a vandal attack, and we havent noticed. Thanks for putting it back. Qb | your 2 cents 09:30, 1 August 2008 (UTC)
African American category
I noticed a few editors edit warring about the African American category being placed on this article. Rather than giving opinions, let's look at the sources:
- Random House Unabridged: A black American of African descent.
- American Heritage Dictionary: A black American of African ancestry
- Webster’s New World College Dictionary: An American having ancestors from sub-Saharan Africa; black American.
- MSN Encarta encyclopedia: (American blacks or black Americans), racial group in the United States whose dominant ancestry is from sub-Saharan West Africa.
- U.S. Census Bureau: A person having origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.
- Encyclopedia of Public Health, by The Gale Group, Inc.: The term "African American," as a categorical descriptor, includes many different segments of the American population referred to as "black" or Americans of sub-Saharan African ancestry.
As one can see from the several reliable sources, this is a racial category used in the United States for a black American. It is not used for a white South African who becomes a citizen of the U.S., nor is it used for someone who is white and has ancestors who were born on the African continent. Dave Matthews is not black; therefore, he is not African American. Kman543210 (talk) 16:44, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. He was born in Africa. He is American. Therefore, he is African American. Regardless of what Webster's says. Qb | your 2 cents 18:45, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- Furthermore... please see the Who is African American? section of the African American article. We dont know Dave's parent's heritage... but I believe its safe to say that his family, who had lived there for quite some time, have ancestors there. If you want to make the point that he's not African American solely because he's white, then thats a pretty soft point. Qb | your 2 cents 18:50, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- Although I quite enjoy the notion of Dave Matthews as African-American—it only makes sense to me, plus I find such a use of the term wonderfully mischievous—I should point out that the African American Wikipedia entry says:
African Americans or Black Americans are citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black racial groups of Africa.
- There's a specific Who is African American? section of the entry, which doesn't make any mention that "African American" is a term that could encompass Americans of white African descent. So if Wikipedia's existing information on the topic is a guideline, I'm afraid that we probably can't get away with it here, Queerbubbles. :)--WaldoJ (talk) 21:07, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- This is what I was refering to:
Some courts have called a person black if the person had any known African ancestry. It became known as the one-drop rule, meaning that a single drop of "black blood" makes a person "black". Some courts have called it the traceable amount rule, and anthropologists used to call it the hypodescent rule, meaning that racially mixed persons were assigned the status of the subordinate group. Qb | your 2 cents 21:54, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
- Might I add Africa is a continent, not a country. A person's nationality refers to their country of birth, not continent of birth. See this: List of African countries. You can see the nationality of each country by clicking on a country, then click on "Demographics Of..." Dave Matthews was born in South Africa, which is a country. Therefore, his nationality is South African. Since he became an American citizen, he is South African-American. I'm an American because I was born in the United States of America. If I acquire citizenship in Ireland, I would be an American-Irish because I'm an American (due to being born in the United States of America) and I became a naturalized citizen of Ireland (i.e. I emigrate to Ireland). It amazes me how people like Queerbubbles and WaldoJ do not know anything about geography and nationalities. The information is easily available. I think some people are ignorant just for the sake of being ignorant. Noble12345 (talk) 03:01, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
- No personal attacks please (besides, WaldoJ was agreeing with you). Let us remember that this should not be about personal opinions. Not only does the term/label African American have a well-sourced technical definition, it also has a well-establish common usage as a term for black Americans. The one-drop/hypodescent rule is an antiquated ruling that was used for discrimination, but it does not relate to the term African American directly; other terms such as negro or colored were used back then. One may not agree with Webster's, but that was not the only source provided. Personally I never use the term African American just like I don't use the term European American for white American, but again, it is a well-established and documented term for black Americans. Dave Matthews is already categorized under Anglo-African people, South Africans of British descent, People from Johannesburg, and South-African Americans, all of which are correct categories. Kman543210 (talk) 03:24, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
Getting to GA Class
IMHO, here's some of what needs to be done to get this entry up to GA Class:
- Significantly more citations are necessary. This information is out there; somebody just needs to do the legwork.
- A bright line needs to be drawn between information about Matthews and information about DMB, with the latter largely excised from the article.
- The writing is as stilted as...uh...a Wikipedia entry. :) This needs to be reflowed, so that each sentence is connected to the prior and subsequent sentences, each paragraph is connected to the prior and subsequent paragraphs, etc.
- The "Music" section is only slightly better than a listing of trivia. This needs to be rewritten to provide actual information about his music. Somebody who has never heard Matthews' music ought to understand his style based on this section.
- The whole affair requires technical cleanup—grammar, punctuation, etc.
I'm listing these things in hopes that others can suggest further improvements, that others might make some of these improvements, and to remind myself of the changes I'd like to make myself. --WaldoJ (talk) 05:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- For the same reason that Barack Obama's page doesn't make reference to his being a one-man Al Qaeda sleeper cell: Wikipedia requires statements of fact, rather than lies or urban legends. --WaldoJ (talk) 16:06, 20 October 2008 (UTC)
The "Early Life" section states as follows:
David John Matthews was born in Johannesburg, South Africa on January 9 1967, the fourth of six children born to John and Valerie Matthews. At eight years old, Matthews' family migrated to Yorktown Heights in Westchester County, New York, where his father, a physicist, started working for IBM. In 1974, the family moved to Cambridge, England, for a year before returning to New York, where his father died from lung cancer in 1977.
One of these two facts is untrue:
- At eight years old—that is, in 1975—his family moved to New York.
- Subsequent to that, in 1974, his family moved to England prior to moving back to New York.
According to the article, his daughters appear in the video for Funny the Way It Is. I've seen it now a few times, and the girls in the video doesn't exactly look like they are nine years old. Can someone provide a source for this, otherwise I'll remove it in a few days. Bjelleklang - talk 01:42, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
New images available
A number of new, good quality images have become available at Commons:Category:Dave Matthews. I hope someone takes a look and adds some of the suitable ones to the article. Couple of new images of his bandmates are also available at Commons:Category:Dave Matthews Band. Cheers, Quibik (talk) 01:19, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
There really should be more information on the vast variety of charitable work Matthews does- both as a member of the Dave Matthews Band but also as an individual. I really don't think that little section does him justice. Here is just one of many good sources:  which mentions both the BAMA Works fund, but also other humanitarian work. --Leahtwosaints (talk) 13:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)
Someone keeps removing "jazz fusion" and inserting "pop" and "pop rock" for musical genres. DMB's music may not qualify as "jazz fusion," although it has elements of jazz, blues and funk , . Matthews and Beauford do not favor the term "jam band" and say that they are not really a fusion band, despite the elements of jazz in their music. So that leaves rock. They are a rock band, not "pop" or "pop rock." If you disagree, let's discuss this and avoid edit warring. Sunray (talk) 00:40, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
The last sentence in the Charity section references an e-mail scam that is completely irrelevant to that section (or any other section, for that matter). 18.104.22.168 (talk) 01:37, 29 December 2010 (UTC)B.