Talk:David Dinkins

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
          This article is of interest to the following WikiProjects:
WikiProject Biography / Politics and Government (Rated B-class)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by the politics and government work group (marked as Mid-importance).
 
WikiProject New York / Columbia University  (Rated B-class, Low-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of the U.S. state of New York on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Low  This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.
Taskforce icon
This article is supported by WikiProject Columbia University (marked as Low-importance).
 
WikiProject New York City (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject New York City, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of New York City-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 
WikiProject African diaspora (Rated B-class, Top-importance)
WikiProject icon This article is within the scope of WikiProject African diaspora, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of African diaspora on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.
B-Class article B  This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale.
 Top  This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale.
 

Untitled[edit]

Okay, there seems to be an 'edit war' going on here, and it's silly.

Question: is the current photo (color image) in the Public Domain? It was not listed as such when I checked.

Quill 21:40, 7 Nov 2004 (UTC)

File:Frmr_NYC_Mayor_David_Dinkins_with_plaque.jpg Since there seems to be a question over the current pic, I uploaded this PD pic to commons--might want to use it, especially if someone can remove the flag growing out of his head (and arse). Niteowlneils 03:34, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If you wanna help, try to rewrite his biography from [1]. It's very interesting, so I think someone who know better english than I should rewrite it. Darwinek 18:34, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sorry, 'rewriting' other people's work is unethical and I won't do it. Quill 07:56, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Place of Birth[edit]

A web search reveals several sites claiming his place of birth to be Trenton, New Jersey. I'm going to take a chance and add that, as no place of birth is currently mentioned. --Do Not Talk About Feitclub (contributions) 11:27, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

'influential clique'?[edit]

The second paragraph describes him as being part of an influential clique of african-americans. Especially considering the Wikipedia definition of clique, that description seems POV to me.--Anchoress 23:07, 10 May 2006 (UTC)


Neutrality[edit]

After browsing this page, I find it hard-pressed to find anything outright positive Dinkins did. The 'Mayoralty' section has precious few details aside from events that Dinkins seemingly had little blame in causing. As well, I deleted a particularly racist statement about him supposedly getting a free pass for being black. Puh-leeze. =//Turnquest 07:22, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Just added an NOPV tag. Seems overly negative all the way through, and plenty of unverified claims. Hopefully, someone who knows a bit more about the man will spot that and clean it up a little. Paj.meister 19:10, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Big Picture=[edit]

I don't have the source, but I remember reading a story in Newsweek or Time about the Big Reduction in Crime during Guliani's time as mayor. The article said the new effective policing tactics implemented by Bratton would have been impossible without the extra police Mayor Dinkins hired during his term. In other words, the big decrease in crime in NYC had two components:

   More Police - implemented by Dinkins
   Better Policing - implemented by Guliani and Bratton

The current article here completely ignores this important piece of information. And paints an overly simplistic picture (Dinkins Bad / Guliani Good) of the transition of NYC from a high crime city to a low crime city.

If Dinkins had not increased the police department, it is doubtful that Guiliani / Bratton could have been as successful. (Republicans rarely raise taxes for anything - even public safety). I know this because here in L.A. today, Bratton is all but begging the city government to hire more police. But our Democratic controled government is too afraid to raise taxes to do it. (The conversavites are "lurking" just off stage in case they do!) California / L.A. is not as blue as portrayed in the media. Neither is NYC.

"Men's Room Attendant" Slur and Racial Tensions[edit]

Many in New York City referred to him as the "Men's Room Attendant" -a blatantly racist appelation. Shouldn't this be included? 71.249.13.251 20:17, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

He was referred to as a "washroom attendant" to be exact, primarily by Bob Grant and others like Rudy Guiliani (it has been rumored). Why is this racist? You've never seen white washroom attendants?? It was really a question of his background and what he has done to deserve to be Mayor of one of the largest cities in the world. Dinkins was a "nobody" in terms of politics and his brief stint as mayor reaffirmed this view. --24.189.35.249 (talk) 19:49, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, the only peson who ever publically referred to Mayor Dinkins as a "Men's Room Attendant" was WABC radio talk show host Bob Grant. 24.168.116.248 05:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Giuliani *encouraged* the racial tensions that intensified in New York during that time. The slur referred to above was made at a rally by police officers Giuliani spearheaded. See: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18108850/site/newsweek/ . Many New Yorkers, especially black and Latino New Yorkers but also whites and Asians believe Giuliani got into office by encouraging racial division in the city. This could be why New Yorkers continue to have such a low opinion of him: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2007/05/14/2007-05-14_bloomy_tops_rudy_in_battle_of_the_titans-2.html

Giuliani referenced Dinkins frequently and seemed to compare accomplishments, (possibly due to questions about Giuliani taking credit for crime reduction that began under Dinkins). Giuliani would not refer to Dinkins by name on these occasions however, referring to him as "my predecessor".

Dinkins also was criticized for attempting to heal racial tensions in New York City during the Flatbush boycott of Korean green-grocer Red Apple, despite pressure from some political activists in the African American community: http://select.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F3061FF73F5D0C718DDDAC0894D8494D81&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fSubjects%2fF%2fFood


Death?[edit]

As of 11:13 pm ET on March 16, this article states that Dinkins died on March 7. I can't confirm that he is alive, but there has been no news coverage whatsoever of his "death" - and the links used as references for his "death" lead to blank pages on the websites of WABC and WNBC. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.119.89.184 (talk) 03:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

It's vandalism and it's been reverted. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 04:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

He's not dead![edit]

He was at David Paterson's swearing in! I'm changing it now - that's really horrible whoever did this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.81.81.105 (talk) 19:20, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Neutrality[edit]

Amazing how negative and anti-Dinkins this article remains. Perhaps if no-one can find citations or neutral phrasing Instead of listing a litany of bad things, the facts should be presented, plus opinion or commentary on them if necessary by cited sources. Otherwise the only way to preserve NPOV will be to remove the listing of negatives. Slac speak up! 01:43, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Eliminating all negative comment is just as detrimental to NPOV, and it's ludicrous to suggest that removing negatives will solve the issue. Much of what is listed is true of Dinkins -- perhaps editors should look to balance the negatives with some positives of his contributions to NYC? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.166.254.3 (talk) 18:46, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

The suggestion was to remove negatives only they couldn't be cited and phrased in a neutral manner. This is well with Wikipedia's guidelines. By stating that 'much' is true, you imply some things in the article are false, which should be removed. Also, if much is true, than it should be no problem finding the requested cites. 24.187.214.210 (talk) 14:33, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm killing anything in the Mayoralty section that is without citation. there is a tremendous amount of baloney there, including an unattributable quote. Vinithehat (talk) 14:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Bob Grant[edit]

A bit about Bob Grant saying something not nice about Dinkins has been inserted three times and removed as inappropriate. Grant is known for saying not nice things about all kinds of people; this is not a controversy, and it isn't even worthy of note. That's what Grant does, and he does it to well-known people and even bills himself as "the inventor of controversial talk radio". This article is not a place to collect a listing of things people who don't (or didn't) like Dinkins said about him. In addition, this is something like 20 years ago; if it really was a controversy, there should be cites to support that. Saying that Grant said something does not a controversy make.  Frank  |  talk  17:10, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Today's edits[edit]

I reverted some of today's edits because of WP:V and WP:NOR concerns, and because some of them just didn't make sense.

  • According to our source (Ebony magazine), Dinkins was raised by his mother and grandmother. If somebody wants to say he was raise by his father, bring a reliable source that says so. Likewise, our source doesn't say anything about where Dinkins was when WWII ended.
  • The section about Dinkins' election was changed into a "some say, others say" format. That interchange raises concerns about original research. To avoid that problem, we usually summarize what one source says, then we summarize what another source says, and we attribute both opinions to their authors. Another problem is that both "sides" seem to say the same thing. Finally, the new material was sourced to a search result from Google Books. Please cite the specific page of New York magazine, so other readers can find the source you used.

— Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 05:38, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

I reverted today's edit because the Ebony article being used as source is wrong. It misstated the facts of his upbringing (see obituary of Dinkins's father in New York Times which states the facts correctly) and it misstates the facts of his education. Dinkins's professional biography at WLIB, where he works, states specifically that he graduated with honors. If he had graduated magna cum laude, a higher honor, it would increase his stature and have been stated there. — PK800  11:06, 13 March 2011

Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth (or facts). Please see WP:V. We don't write articles based on "if a, then b". We write articles based on what is actually published in reliable sources. We cannot accurately say that "magna cum laude" would "increase his stature"; besides, the man is 83 years old and perhaps doesn't need stature. Perhaps instead he is displaying some humility by downplaying the exact honor from 50+ years ago. The point is - we don't assume anything.  Frank  |  talk  13:15, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Third-party sources[edit]

Dinkins's memoirs is cited 10 times. That's excessive, especially when it's being used to cite facts about the crime rate during Dinkins's mayoralty. Independent third-party sources are necessary. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:05, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

The Dinkins memoir is cited as reference for his graduating cum laude from Howard University (a source of previous debate in Wikipedia), his parents' professions, his political mentoring by J. Raymond Jones, the physical scope of his first mayoral campaign, his reaction to the Lemrick Nelson verdict, and the economic effect of the U.S. Open Tennis Championships on New York City -- all significant pieces of hitherto buried information, the point of a memoir, and not at all excessive. The statement "Under the Dinkins administration, crime in New York City decreased more dramatically and more rapidly than at any time in modern New York City history" was made by Len Riggio, CEO of Barnes & Noble, on page xi of the foreword to Dinkins' memoir and is backed up by a chart from the New York Post. It is verifiable and should be reinstated. The Dinkins listing includes 31 individual and verifiable references from sources other than the Dinkins memoir itself. There is no promotional commercial link. The third party notification is not justified and should be removed. The Confederate flag on the Talk site of the person who has made provocative statements regarding edits is noted.Pk800 (talk) 22:23, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
As always, independent, third-party sources are best. WP:SOURCE says "Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy."
Also, I don't think the chart from the New York Post says what you think it does. It shows that crime was high in 1990, it was higher in 1991, and it began falling in 1992. I think the Post's editors would choke on their tongues before they would say that "Under the Dinkins administration, crime in New York City decreased more dramatically and more rapidly than at any time in modern New York City history." Their point was exactly the opposite. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:09, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

The point is not what the "Post"'s editors would do with their tongues, it is the steady and historic decrease of crime under Dinkins, beginning in 1991, which the chart specifically details. Crime was not higher in 1992 than in 1991, as you state. Dinkins took office on January 1, 1990, and crime was high in 1990 as a result of trends begun under Dinkins' predecessors. His policies were put into practice in 1990, and according to FBI and NYPD statistics, which are also footnoted in the listing - Langan, Patrick A.; Matthew R. Durose (December 2003). "The Remarkable Drop in Crime in New York City" (PDF). International Conference on Crime. Retrieved November 15, 2007. "According to NYPD statistics, crime in New York City took a downturn starting around 1990 that continued for many years, shattering all the city’s old records for consecutive-year declines in crime rates" (see Appendix tables 1 and 2) - crime decreased every month for the last 36 months of the Dinkins administration.

Third-party sources may be best but when they are incorrect or do not address the issues, published facts are admissible, are they not? PublicAffairs Books, publisher of the Dinkins memoir, has a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Or does Wikipedia value incorrect statements that are properly sourced over published facts themselves? For instance, "Ebony" magazine incorrectly reported that Dinkins graduated magna cum laude from Howard University. In his memoir, Dinkins states that he graduated cum laude. Is it Wikipedia's position that the "Ebony" reportage takes precedence?

Please allow edits to the Dinkins listing to reflect these facts.Pk800 (talk) 22:31, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Dinkins and Crime[edit]

Though a certain mythology has developed to paint Dinkins as the villain and Giuliani as the savior, this article is equally guilty of distortion, particularly on the area of crime.

Unlike what the opening paragraph states, crime under Dinkins did not decrease more than crime under any other mayor, but more than any other PREVIOUS mayor. Even the supposed source does not claim that crime dropped more under Dinkins than under any other mayor afterward. It says "According to NYPD statistics, crime in New York City took a downturn starting around 1990 that continued for many years, shattering all the city’s old records for consecutive-year declines in crime rates." The downturn BEGAN during Dinkins, but anybody who can read a chart can see that crime decreased more during each of Giuliani's terms.

Similarly, it is misleading to refer only to decreases in crime during the Dinkins administration without putting them in proper context - a general INCREASE in crime even from the crime-ridden Koch administration and New York City's pinnacle in crime. While he certainly deserves credit - and quite a bit more than he is given in the press - for the past 20 years' decrease in crime, this article currently provides only praise and reads like a list of accomplishments, particularly on the subject of crime.Deepestfury (talk) 02:43, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

Dinkins took office on January 1, 1990, and crime rose in 1990 as a result of trends begun under Dinkins' predecessors. His policies were put into practice in 1990, and according to FBI and NYPD statistics, which are footnoted in the listing - Langan, Patrick A.; Matthew R. Durose (December 2003). "The Remarkable Drop in Crime in New York City" (PDF). International Conference on Crime. Retrieved November 15, 2007. "According to NYPD statistics, crime in New York City took a downturn starting around 1990 that continued for many years, shattering all the city’s old records for consecutive-year declines in crime rates" (see Appendix tables 1 and 2) - crime decreased every month for the last 36 months of the Dinkins administration.Pk800 (talk) 00:50, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
Then say that. The source does not say that crime "decreased more dramatically and more rapidly than at any time in modern New York City history", the claim you keep inserting even though several editors have pointed out it is not supported by reliable sources. Fat&Happy (talk) 00:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, it does, and it has been accepted by editors. See NPOV Dispute discussion below. See also the cited source Len Riggio, CEO of Barnes & Noble - [1] - in the entry.Pk800 (talk) 01:04, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

References
  1. ^ Dinkins, David N.; Knobler, Peter (2013). A Mayor's Life: Governing New York's Gorgeous Mosaic. New York: PublicAffairs. ISBN 978-1-61039-301-0. Riggio, Len, Foreword, page xi
The section below a) had no consensus, merely two differing opinions of anon IPs, and b) was not in regard to the current claim in the lede where you insist the source says something it does not say. The person who wrote the preface to Dinkins's autobiography for him is no more an unrelated third-party reliable source than the person who co-wrote the book with/for him. Fat&Happy (talk) 01:15, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Riggio is a respected business leader, PublicAffairs is a respected publisher known for publishing responsible non-fiction. Both are reliable sources, as is the NYPD, which issued the relevant statistics.Pk800 (talk) 01:37, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Nobody is questioning the NYPD statistics, merely your POV interpretation of them. Riggio may be the world's greatest businessman; that doesn't make him personally a reliable source for things he has no expertise in, like the NYPD's crime statistics, and self-serving claims in an autobiography aren't exactly reliable sources either. Fat&Happy (talk) 01:57, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

Facts are facts: 36 consecutive months of verified crime reduction, the Langan/Durose International Conference on Crime statement concerning those statistics and their place in NYC policing history. Unchanged. There is no POV interpretation, there are only the facts. These are not self-serving claims, they are statements by credible sources other than Dinkins. Somehow this is found difficult to accept.Pk800 (talk) 03:10, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

The statement that crime fell "more dramatically and more rapidly than at any time in modern New York City history" needs to be properly sourced. The problem is that it's not. Attributing it to a table of numbers in an FBI report seems to violate WP:No original research (but see WP:CALC). — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:32, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

NPOV Dispute [Mayoralty][edit]

This section is a list of the "accomplishments" of the Dinkins administration without any criticism. The four years of the Dinkins mayoralty were the four highest years of crime in New York City's history - a fact that is glossed over. This article reads like Dinkins campaign literature. Furthermore, it is false to state that crime declined more, or at a greater rate, under Dinkins than under any other mayor, as this paragraph states. It is more than any PREVIOUS mayor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deepestfury (talkcontribs) 05:47, 13 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm going to remove this NPOV. The section has its correctly cited sources, so it seems objective. If you have contrary opinions and sources to this section, please provide the appropriate sources with proper citations and add them to the proper sections. You may personally disagree with Dinkins, as you may possibly do with the majority of wikipedia articles, but that doesn't make what really happened incorrect. 71.190.247.82 07:49, 13 February 2014