Talk:Deity

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Supernatural or superhuman?[edit]

“01:02, 11 June 2011 Mann jess (talk | contribs) (17,010 bytes) (Undid revision 433634278 by 87.19.60.51 (talk) No. Lots of things are "superhuman". This is explicitly "supernatural". Please don't [[WP:EW discuss on talk.) (undo)”

Supernatural means over-the-nature and more specifically *not part of the nature*. Let me quote the article:

“natural phenomena as lightning, floods, storms, other 'acts of God', and miracles are attributed to them”

Miracles are things unexplicated by science (ethimologically it is synonym of wonder). Admitting deities, angels and so on exist, are these beings out-of-our-comprehension (in their particular conformation) or *not part of nature*? (note 1)

We must free the field from a "neo-positivistic" vision of nature. What is out-of-our-comprehension is not unnatural, and even if it should refer to other-than-human beings, it does not mean they are less *part of nature* than us.

About the other part it explains by itself. It says about ruling on natural phenomena, they are a deep inside *part of nature*. I shall be more clear. Juppiter rules on thunders and so on, Thanatos on death, Dike on justice, Robigus on rust, they have power on these things but it means their abilities and their specific nature are over-human-abilities and over-human-nature (superhuman - and also -maybe not forever- out-of-our-comprehension), not they are not *part of nature* like us.

Ultimately the whole concept of the so called "supernatural" must be revised. note 1: Semele, mother of Dionisus, asked to Juppiter to let her see him in his deity form. The myth tells she was disintegrated.

Mormegil 87.19.77.115 (talk) 03:01, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Hi 87.19. We've been using this definition for a while, and we'd need sources to modify our fundamental definition. Generally speaking, I'm not sure that changing "supernatural" to "superhuman" is an improvement in describing the term, in part because lots of things are "superhuman"; Indeed, anything with abilities 'above' that of humans could be seen as such. Biological enhancements are one example, which clearly don't qualify as a "Diety". Supernatural, on the other hand, implies that a Diety is beyond nature itself, unlike the everyday things we encounter. Personally, I find this to be a more compelling definition. If you can find a source which supports your proposal, however, we would be able to discuss such a change to the lead.   — Jess· Δ 03:22, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
A source? Dictionary?
"superhuman
–adjective
1. above or beyond what is human; having a higher nature or greater powers than humans have: a superhuman being.
2. exceeding ordinary human power, achievement, experience, etc.: a superhuman effort."
www.dictionary.com
The 1st definition is (also) a deity. The 2nd, regarding deities, is what a deity can do.
Bye, Mormegil 87.19.77.115 (talk) 04:56, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
No, we need a source for "Diety". Not a source for "superhuman".   — Jess· Δ 15:05, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
God
noun
1 (in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2 - (god)(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity:a moon god, the Hindu god Vishnu
- an image, animal, or other object worshipped as divine or symbolizing a god.
- used as a conventional personification of fate:he dialled the number and, the gods relenting, got through at once
excerpt from http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/God
see the link for deepening (I stripped just the first two definitions, bold highlighting is mine).
Bye, Mormegil 87.18.196.100 (talk) 22:27, 11 June 2011 (UTC)
If anyone has not anything to reply, I shall procede with the below amendetion in a week or a little more:
"A deity is a recognized preternatural or superhuman immortal being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred, held in high regard, and respected by believers, often religiously referred to as a god.
Deities are depicted in a variety of forms, but are also frequently expressed as having human form. Some faiths and traditions consider it blasphemous to imagine or depict the deity as having any concrete form. They are usually immortal, and are commonly assumed to have personalities and to possess consciousness, intellects, desires, and emotions similar to those of humans.
They have power over one or more aspects of nature and/or human fortunes. Such natural phenomena as lightning, floods, storms, other 'acts of God', and miracles are attributed to them, and they may be thought to be the authorities or controllers of various aspects of human life (such as birth or the afterlife). Some deities are asserted to be the directors of time and fate itself, to be the givers of human law and morality, to be the ultimate judges of human worth and behavior, and to be the designers and creators of the Earth or the universe."
Bold highlightins are the amendations. Maybe I shall do further wiki formatting like links and others.
Bye, Mormegil 87.19.76.137 (talk) 18:52, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Why not both?[edit]

I don't know if this thread was just left unclosed or not, but I enjoyed reading it so kudos to all those involved, but I would like to ask:

Why must it be either/or: "superhuman" or "supernatural"? The referent of this article is clearly both. I don't see why a sentence as important as this one can't make room for another word. Try it! you might like it better with both if we can find the right wording.

Who could argue that both of these adjectives are not true of this referent by definition? God is as clearly superhuman as he is supernatural. Who would revert such an edit? On what grounds would they object? You've both got enough WP:RSs to cite both many times over. By all sources, a diety is as superhuman as a superhero. Isn't it said that the referent is before, after, thoughout, apart from, and above nature, so what could be more super - natural? Chrisrus (talk) 22:09, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Hypothetical Proto-Indo-European[edit]

This article says

In the reconstructed and hypothetical Proto-Indo-European...

whereas Proto-Indo-European says

The Proto-Indo-European language (PIE) is the reconstructed common ancestor of the Indo-European languages, spoken by the Proto-Indo-Europeans. The existence of such a language has been accepted by linguists for over a century, and reconstruction is far advanced and quite detailed.

That seems a pretty strong assertion of consensus within the relevant scientific discipline which, if accurate, lifts Proto-Indo-European above hypothetical. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 07:04, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
I've removed "hypothetical" as redundant per this discussion at WikiProject Linguistics. Angr (talk · contribs) in that discussion also says:

The sentence currently in the article Deity, "In the reconstructed and hypothetical Proto-Indo-European, humans were described as chthonian ('earthly') as opposed to the deities which were deivos ('celestial')", is simply mistaken: chthonian is not a reconstructed PIE word at all; it's an English word derived from Ancient Greek. And deivos is a very old-fashioned spelling for a reconstructed PIE word that most scholars nowadays would spell either deiwos or deiu̯os.

I haven't made the change to this because I couldn't support it, but I invite better informed editors here and at WikiProject Linguistics to attend to this. --Anthonyhcole (talk) 05:36, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

New section "Islamic view"[edit]

  • I have added new section in the article for the NPOV, because it was needed.Justice007 (talk) 21:56, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

Definition of term "deity"[edit]

I can see how the lead might need to be amended a bit. The term "deity" unfortunately seems to be used rather interchangably with "god" in multiple situations, and that makes it rather harder to define the scope of the article and or the stated definition of the term. To support this, I quote the article on "Deity" written by Raimundo Panikkar in the Encyclopedia of Religion: "Deity is a word with a diversity of meanings. It is an ambiguous and often polemical word. The different interpretations that it has been given show that it is also a relative word." The reference book World Eras has an article by that name which so far as I can see doesn't even attempt to define the term. The 1988 Webster's New World Dictionary defines the term as "1. the state of being a god; divine nature; godhood. 2. -ties a god or goddess --the Deity God." Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary offers three definitions: "1. a : the rank or essential nature of a god : divinity b capitalized : god 1, supreme being 2: a god or goddess <the deities of ancient Greece> 3: one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful." I have also found it used as the English language equivalent/translation of murti by ISKCON and some other Hindu groups. Much of this could be addressed with a "see also" hatnote of course.

The predominant definition seems to be "divinity" or "godiness" or however one wants to describe the inherent nature of a god, as it is the first that appears in the Webster and the Merriam-Webster. So, basically, "deity" might be seen as being the defining characteristic of being a god. I'm not entirely sure that really qualifies for an encyclopedia article rather than just a dictionary definition.

Functionally, having looked over some of the reference articles on Highbeam that use the word, and a lot of them do use it, I get the impression that the term deity is in a practical sense used primarily as a synonym for "God" when speaking of polytheism of some sort. This can be seen I guess as making a little sense, because it might be more common to try to determine what specifically defines an entity as a "god" in polytheistic thought, rather than in monotheism, where there basically aren't any parties other than the monotheistic God him/her/itself who could reasonably be seen as necessarily possessing these defining qualities. Maybe. John Carter (talk) 15:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Second paragraph[edit]

The quote in the second paragraph is a mess... vandalism? It says:

"a being with powers greater than those of ordinary humans. but who interacts with humans. positively or negatively, in ways char carry humans to new levels of consciousness beyond the grounded preoccupations of ordinary life.[3]

I couldn't find the original version in the edit history though, so if anybody else can fix it... King Klear (talk) 09:14, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

religion and deity[edit]

Semantics aside, some religions do not have a deity at all. Hinduism is the big example - people amuse the archetypes at large, but the religious books are clear it is nature of existence itself that is God in specifically defined experience, relative to other religions like christianity or islam where it's all about "the Lord".

I think the people who deny God experience at large (like Richard Dawkings) are these days worse then the worst physical polluters. God-Experience = health*intelligence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.0.220.171 (talk) 01:44, 7 January 2013 (UTC)

"traditional belief" is redundant, vague and undefined[edit]

The lead starts "In traditional belief, a deity...". Traditional belief is vague and there is no article to explain what it might mean. I actually have no idea what it could mean (which tradition?). I tried to change it to "Religious belief" but it was reverted. I actually think it doesn't need a context as believers, non-believers and non-traditional non-believers could agree on a definition. I propose changing the first sentence to "A deity is a supernatural being who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred Bhny (talk) 19:54, 2 July 2013 (UTC)

Since there was no comment, I fixed it again Bhny (talk) 20:04, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Actually I am not sure, a long time no-one notice that. I leave that to other editors to comment, I have no any problem with---, anyhow thanks for your concerns. Justice007 (talk) 20:11, 5 July 2013 (UTC)